News Apple's Vision Pro Is Pricey, but It Has a Chance

[baboma]

>I'd rather hear your pitch about how this MacBook Pro is the next general purpose laptop computing platform that I just have to have.

I don't own Apple devices, other than a pair of AirPods gifted to me. They work OK with my non-Apple gear, not great.

You're reaching for an analogy, but it's not apt. A MacBook Pro isn't a next-gen device no matter how you slice it. You're asking for a very strained embellishment if not an outright lie. That's not how marketing works, by lying or embellishing. Marketing works by putting the facts in the best possible light.

What I said about how to best position the VP is what Apple is already doing. It is not a guess or a supposition. Apple is casting VP as a "spatial computer" (note the word computer), and indeed, it does subsume many of the popular functions that people use PCs (and phones) for--web browsing, watching movies, running apps, etc. More to the point, Apple does not call the VP an "AR/VR/XR headset."

As you noted in your MacBook Pro example, people would pay a lot more for a computer than just a AR/VR headset. That's the key. There is no embellishing involved, only a positioning of the product "in the best possible light." The VP, if the demo claims pan out, can be legitimately called a next-gen computer.

How much is that worth? We'll find out in the months after the VP launch. After gauging public reception, Apple marketers will come up with the numbers.

 

[Lucky_SLS]

Its good that the Vision Pro runs the MacOS and is compatible with the physical KB & Mouse from the get go. This atleast covers the office work use case better than some competing solutions without the need for base stations. And we know that apple usually does a good job on their implementation and set a gold standard.

the other best part? i did not see any data cable connection requirements. I know that the headset had built in M2 chip for processing power and it connects to the phone and macs for continuity features, but gaming is a whole another scenario. considering that each eye gets more than 4k res, its gonna be tough to power it in AAA games even with foveated rendering and Metal graphics upscaling.

The Death Stranding announcement and gameplay did not look butter smooth and they did not show any performance metrics (Just like apple to do so), so i am not too convinced with the GPU power in the Vision Pro...

What worries me is the gaming scenario, VR Sim racing is a big market and they have not announced in-house or partner support for racing wheel, paddles ect., nor do they have those sim racing titles in the MacOS. Getting Microsoft Flight simulator on MacOS natively would be a great first step XD

 

[-Fran-]

>I'd rather hear your pitch about how this MacBook Pro is the next general purpose laptop computing platform that I just have to have.

I don't own Apple devices, other than a pair of AirPods gifted to me. They work OK with my non-Apple gear, not great.

You're reaching for an analogy, but it's not apt. A MacBook Pro isn't a next-gen device no matter how you slice it. You're asking for a very strained embellishment if not an outright lie. That's not how marketing works, by lying or embellishing. Marketing works by putting the facts in the best possible light.

What I said about how to best position the VP is what Apple is already doing. It is not a guess or a supposition. Apple is casting VP as a "spatial computer" (note the word computer), and indeed, it does subsume many of the popular functions that people use PCs (and phones) for--web browsing, watching movies, running apps, etc. More to the point, Apple does not call the VP an "AR/VR/XR headset."

As you noted in your MacBook Pro example, people would pay a lot more for a computer than just a AR/VR headset. That's the key. There is no embellishing involved, only a positioning of the product "in the best possible light." The VP, if the demo claims pan out, can be legitimately called a next-gen computer.

How much is that worth? We'll find out in the months after the VP launch. After gauging public reception, Apple marketers will come up with the numbers.

Don't get deceived by Apple's marketing. Their HMD is an XR device.

The salient point is that they managed to include plenty of decent (on paper and based on early impressions) functionality for a first gen XR device. Apple loves re-branding things to fit their narrative, so careful there.

This is the same semantic difference from calling a Smartphone a PC, and such.

Regards.

 

[baboma]

>Its good that the Vision Pro runs the MacOS and is compatible with the physical KB & Mouse from the get go.

Per Apple, VP will run on VisionOS. My take from the demo is that compatibility with Mac/iPhone/iPadOS will be limited to screencasting, aside from apps ported specifically to VisionOS of course.

>What worries me is the gaming scenario, VR Sim racing is a big market and they have not announced in-house or partner support for racing wheel, paddles ect.

That'll be up to the developers, hence the purpose of this pre-launch, to get devs onboard.

 

[baboma]

>Don't get deceived by Apple's marketing. Their HMD is an XR device.

An XR (or AR or VR) device denotes a hardware product. Per Apple's presentation and subsequent hands-on reports, VP is much more than a hardware product. It is hardware plus the wealth of the Apple software ecosystems behind it. The worth of that is much more than the hardware alone. Comparing hardware features alone misses the point. You need to compare the total functionality of the devices.

>This is the same semantic difference from calling a Smartphone a PC, and such.

A smartphone is a legitimate computer now, and costs about as much.

 

[-Fran-]

>Don't get deceived by Apple's marketing. Their HMD is an XR device.

An XR (or AR or VR) device denotes a hardware product. Per Apple's presentation and subsequent hands-on reports, VP is much more than a hardware product. It is hardware plus the wealth of the Apple software ecosystems behind it. The worth of that is much more than the hardware alone. Comparing hardware features alone misses the point. You need to compare the total functionality of the devices.

>This is the same semantic difference from calling a Smartphone a PC, and such.

A smartphone is a legitimate computer now, and costs about as much.

Again, don't fall for Apple's marketing too easily. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. The duck can be big, small and different feathers, but still a duck.

Regards.

 

[Lucky_SLS]

>Its good that the Vision Pro runs the MacOS and is compatible with the physical KB & Mouse from the get go.

Per Apple, VP will run on VisionOS. My take from the demo is that compatibility with Mac/iPhone/iPadOS will be limited to screencasting, aside from apps ported specifically to VisionOS of course.

>What worries me is the gaming scenario, VR Sim racing is a big market and they have not announced in-house or partner support for racing wheel, paddles ect.

That'll be up to the developers, hence the purpose of this pre-launch, to get devs onboard.

They did say that its a standalone VR. What i meant by MacOS is that it runs all the MacOS/iOS apps or a version of them in Vision OS. And i really think its using just continuity and not casting or using the resources of a Mac computer to drive the apps in Vision OS. If thats not the case then it would be huge bummer and i think apple would not miss to tell that crucial bit of info.

getting the devs on board for porting existing MacOS/iOS games to visionOS is doable in the timeframe of the launch. But getting those games to port from Win or PS5 would be a whole another deal. Considering the relationship apple has with its Devs and the 30% apple fee and strict adherences to apple standards, its gonna be tough for new devs to jump onboard...

But then again, like i said, more than 4k pixels for each eye - even with foveated rendering and upscaling, its gonna be a huge task. PLaying games at this resolution and fidelity will definitely involve casting and using a more powerful Mac PC. The have not revealed the GPU version in the M2 used in the Vison PRO. This will need to be equal to atleast the 4080 to deliver comfortable gameplay experience and Apple does not currently have a GPU model that powerful.

 

[Koen1982]

I guess this will have the same succesrate as the 3d movies, people didn't want to wear those glasses and I think this will be comparable.

 

[JamesEricH]

It's a fair overall take, but make no mistake: Apple is not at the bleeding edge of XR by a long shot.

Everything presented by Apple is not "bleeding edge" by Varjo's standards (for example).

The world's most advanced virtual and mixed reality devices.

Varjo makes the most advanced augmented, virtual and mixed reality headsets for professionals. Welcome to the immersive workplace.

varjo.com

As or this being an early Dev Kit, I think you're mostly right, but I can't shake the feeling it's an awkward middle ground they had to take given how long it's taken them to reach this point and how, more or less, Meta's Quest Pro and now Quest 3, have been received.

It is an interesting piece of hardware for sure, but this is just Apple's spin/take on what is mostly a somewhat proven concept by other companies out there.

I love your closing remark, which I 100% share, Andrew.

Regards.

I think Apple have been clever with this. Hololens 2 has never been about home multimedia use. Yes Apple are "faking" AR with cameras, yet convincingly. i.e the ability for apps to affect a video feed (lighting etc).The ability to switch between VR and "AR" panders to multiple markets and sets the ground for AR apps when technology can catch up (with a pair of glasses)

 

[helper800]

They did say that its a standalone VR. What i meant by MacOS is that it runs all the MacOS/iOS apps or a version of them in Vision OS. And i really think its using just continuity and not casting or using the resources of a Mac computer to drive the apps in Vision OS. If thats not the case then it would be huge bummer and i think apple would not miss to tell that crucial bit of info.

getting the devs on board for porting existing MacOS/iOS games to visionOS is doable in the timeframe of the launch. But getting those games to port from Win or PS5 would be a whole another deal. Considering the relationship apple has with its Devs and the 30% apple fee and strict adherences to apple standards, its gonna be tough for new devs to jump onboard...

But then again, like i said, more than 4k pixels for each eye - even with foveated rendering and upscaling, its gonna be a huge task. PLaying games at this resolution and fidelity will definitely involve casting and using a more powerful Mac PC. The have not revealed the GPU version in the M2 used in the Vison PRO. This will need to be equal to atleast the 4080 to deliver comfortable gameplay experience and Apple does not currently have a GPU model that powerful.

For this to be a gaming device that is usable on the go with all those pixels they will either need giant battery packs, new battery technology, and 4090-like performance with huge batteries, or at 15 watts power consumption at the same performance level. Since none of this exists we know it will be lacking somewhere, whether it be performance at that resolution, size and portability, highly down scaled fidelity, or any combination of those things. This is what I am trying to get at. The idea of the technology is more advanced than the hardware available to drive it at this time. I say this tech being portable without giant battery packs, with usable battery life, is at least 10-20 years out for batteries and at least a decade out for graphics.

 

[bit_user]

For this to be a gaming device that is usable on the go with all those pixels they will either need giant battery packs, new battery technology, and 4090-like performance with huge batteries, or at 15 watts power consumption at the same performance level.

Yeah, you're not going to get a AAA-level game on this thing. There was a rumor Apple designed the M1 Ultra to power it, but that would've been so big, heavy, and power-hungry that it would've required a base station, and Johnny Ive was rumored to have killed that plan.

So, the kinds of games for it will be like those on Meta Quest or Nintendo Switch, with simplified graphics. If you want more than that, you'll have to stick with a tethered experience. For VR, that's doable. For AR, it's definitely not.

 

[-Fran-]

This was such a hot take that I'm not even mad; I can't stop laughing at it xD

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUjLawQLaGM

EDIT: The counter-argument from Cold Fusion 😀

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5qU2Yrq_mc


Regards.

 

[bit_user]

I'm not posting a video link, but LTT got 2M views for gushing over it, when it's obvious he hadn't even tried it. Maybe he's angling for a review sample.

I think they use Macs to edit their videos, so I'll bet he'd like some free Macs, also.

 

[Lucky_SLS]

Here is a review with first impressions, but no gaming related content:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFvXuyITwBI

 

[helper800]

I'm not posting a video link, but LTT got 2M views for gushing over it, when it's obvious he hadn't even tried it. Maybe he's angling for a review sample.

I think they use Macs to edit their videos, so I'll bet he'd like some free Macs, also.

They do not use macs to edit their videos, they have majority PCs.

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

Each of my kids have an iPhone that cost around $800, perhaps an iPad that cost around $400 and a Windows notebook PC that cost around $1,200. I don't see how each of them could own a $3,500 VR/VA headset. That is not going to happen in our family. Maybe, I could see buying a VR/VA headset for the whole family to share - but, I don't see that happening, either.

The Apple headset will go the way of the Disney Galactic Starcruiser hotel that just shut down after less than 2 years. For some reason Disney thought $6000 for 2 nights at a hotel was a consumer family friendly experience... and this $3500 Apple headset is on the same level of stupidity.

 

[bit_user]

They do not use macs to edit their videos, they have majority PCs.

I watch almost no LTT content, but I happened to see one video where he was complaining about the crazy-expensive PCIe cards used to decode/process the footage from their fancy cameras. I'm pretty sure it was a Mac card, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I just found a video from April 2020, where he builds a new ThreadRipper-based video editing PC. However, I didn't see what they used before...

 

[bit_user]

The Apple headset will go the way of the Disney Galactic Starcruiser hotel that just shut down after less than 2 years. For some reason Disney thought $6000 for 2 nights at a hotel was a consumer family friendly experience...

Okay, we get it. Enough about the Disney Galactic Starcruiser, please. It's already defunct and this forum isn't about Disney or Star Wars.

Plus, your post was totally unrelated to the one you were replying to, as it had nothing even to do with Vision Pro. Cool your jets, man.

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

Okay, we get it. Enough about the Disney Galactic Starcruiser, please. It's already defunct and this forum isn't about Disney or Star Wars.

Plus, your post was totally unrelated to the one you were replying to, as it had nothing even to do with Vision Pro. Cool your jets, man.

Really?

My jets are cool. I could care less honestly. Apple has their fanbois... many of them in this thread. I'm totally aware of what this forum is about and am just making a comparison and off the top of my head that's the best one I could come up with that IMHO is on the same level of ridiculousness... and my response regarding pricing was definitely relevant. The post I was responding to was talking about Apple product pricing and it wasn't even your post.

Does it really bother you that much? How many headsets have you preordered? 🤣 🤣 🤣

Get over yourself. Believe me I am not sitting here stressing out on whether or not this will be a success... but since it bothers you that much I'll go ahead and stop comparing it to Disney and instead compare it to another Apple product.

How about the Apple Newton?

The Newton was considered technologically innovative at its debut, but a combination of factors, including its high price and early problems with its handwriting recognition feature, limited its sales. This led to Apple ultimately discontinuing the platform at the direction of Steve Jobs in 1998, a year after his return to the company.

Apple Newton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

🤣🤣🤣

 

[bit_user]

Apple has their fanbois... many of them in this thread.

I think most of us are not.

The post I was responding to was talking about pricing and it wasn't even your post.

Sorry, I misread that. I could swear it referenced a different post, but maybe I was too tired.

Does it really bother you that much?

It just seems like anyone bringing up an off-topic subject that much is trying to work an agenda, which is not what the forum is for.

since it bothers you that much I'll go ahead and stop comparing it to Disney and instead compare it to another Apple product.

How about the Apple Newton?

That would be more appropriate.

The Newton was considered technologically innovative at its debut, but a combination of factors, including its high price and early problems with its handwriting recognition feature, limited its sales. This led to Apple ultimately discontinuing the platform at the direction of Steve Jobs in 1998, a year after his return to the company.

Apple Newton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There you go. Any more snarky comments... take it to PMs. Thank you. Have a nice day.

One more thing:

Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on

On its 30th anniversary, we look at the groundbreaking product’s enduring legacy.

arstechnica.com

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

I think most of us are not.


Sorry, I misread that. I could swear it referenced a different post, but maybe I was too tired.


It just seems like anyone bringing up an off-topic subject that much is trying to work an agenda, which is not what the forum is for.


That would be more appropriate.


One more thing:

​

Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on

On its 30th anniversary, we look at the groundbreaking product’s enduring legacy.

arstechnica.com

​

No worries man. We're good. We've had good discussions in the past on these forums and that's all I'm trying to do. If my reply came off the wrong way I apologize... that's my personality.

Cheers.