Question Are all Pure Sine Wave UPS the same ?

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Aeacus

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Cause locally it's a bit tad expensive, more like 340~ for that CP1600 UPS and 395~ for the APC
That much i've already said;
It seems that you've greatly underestimated the cost of a proper UPS. Since UPS'es job is to keep your PC running when there's blackout by supplying good and stable electricity to your PC, they also cost a lot of money.
:rolleyes:

so I don't know, it could be great if any eu website that can ship under 340~.
When something isn't available locally for me, i get it from amazon.de (since i live in Europe as well);

CyberPower CP1600EPFCLCD,
amzon.de: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Ensemble...IntéRieur-Pochettes-Black/dp/B0CRVFXY78/?th=1

APC BGM2200B-GR,
amazon.de: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Gaming-Uninterruptible-Sockets-Midnight-BGM2200B-GR-black/dp/B0CW6GFP4R

But getting it from amazon.de means higher shipping cost (at least for me), since it needs to be shipped from Germany to my country.


What is expensive, is your RTX 4070 (MSRP $599) while currently costing ~€580 and up. Here, i'd say that if you were able to afford nearly €600 GPU, you could afford ~€350 UPS as well.
 
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zgzdgz

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That much i've already said;

:rolleyes:


When something isn't available locally for me, i get it from amazon.de (since i live in Europe as well);

CyberPower CP1600EPFCLCD,
amzon.de: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Ensembles-Mini-Envelopes-Transparent-IntéRieur-Pochettes-Black/dp/B0CRVFXY78/?th=1

APC BGM2200B-GR,
amazon.de: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Gaming-Uninterruptible-Sockets-Midnight-BGM2200B-GR-black/dp/B0CW6GFP4R

But getting it from amazon.de means higher shipping cost (at least for me), since it needs to be shipped from Germany to my country.


What is expensive, is your RTX 4070 (MSRP $599) while currently costing ~€580 and up. Here, i'd say that if you were able to afford nearly €600 GPU, you could afford ~€350 UPS as well.
Okay, my bad for keep mentioning the expensive prices brother :D Basically if I could get the same models for a bit lower price than what's locally available to me, I'll take that bet sir ! :D Ya know, it's weird too... Why do they cost so much, it's just 4070, not 4070 Ti, or 4080 ya know... Do you have a similiar gpu too ?
 

Aeacus

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Okay, my bad for keep mentioning the expensive prices brother :D
Yeah. Time and time again, i see people who have 0 issues forking €600-€800 out for a GPU but when it comes to buying proper, good quality PSU (or UPS), then they say they don't have enough money. :cautious:

In my opinion, anyone who has money to buy €500+ GPU, also has enough money to buy proper PSU (and UPS too).
It's not like where the build has ~€200 GPU, where one can say with a reason that they don't have enough money for ~€150 PSU or ~€350 UPS.

Basically if I could get the same models for a bit lower price than what's locally available to me, I'll take that bet sir ! :D
Well, you don't have to go with 1600VA/1000W UPS. As i said earlier, ~800W UPS would do too. Only downside is runtime, which will not be as long as with beefier UPS.

If you are penny-pincher, smallest UPS would be;
CyberPower CP900EPFCLCD (900VA/540W, true/pure sine wave, line-interactive);
amazon.de: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/CP900EPFCLCD-UK/dp/B004SO5FWM/

It's the same series UPS as i have, but in smaller capacity. By my estimation, 540W UPS can keep your PC running 2-3 mins (given the load is ~300W).

Why do they cost so much, it's just 4070, not 4070 Ti, or 4080 ya know...
Reason why Nvidia GPUs cost so much, is because Nvidia doesn't have a real competition. Sure, AMD with their Radeon GPUs is also out there but none of their GPUs is a match to Nvidia. Intel ARC GPUs are also somewhere out there but nowhere near high-end. And since there's Nvidia monopoly, Nvidia can ask bloated prices for their GPUs.

Also, it doesn't help that starting with next gen GPUs, AMD threw in the towel, stating that, even they aren't going to make high-end GPUs anymore. Leaving Nvidia only GPU manufacturer who makes high-end GPUs.
Article about AMD stopping the high-end GPU production: https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/new-radeon-8000-series-strategy

Do you have a similiar gpu too ?
No.

What i have, is the very last GTX series GPU: MSI GTX 1660 Ti Gaming X 6G.

Back in 2016, when i bought my current Skylake build, i started off with MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 3G GPU. In Q1 2020, i upgraded my GPU to GTX 1660 Ti. Since i play on 1080p, that GPU at that time, was more than enough. Another option would've been RTX 2060 but that GPU would've done better with 1440p. But since i have 1080p monitor, GTX 1660 Ti is more than enough for me. And it still is, to this very day (i don't play AAA titles, instead small casual indie titles).

You can see the specs and pics of all my 3 rigs from my signature. Though, looks like the builds.gg is currently down for maintenance. :unsure: Still, no biggie, i have my builds in pcpp as well;
Skylake - https://fr.pcpartpicker.com/b/bd9J7P
Haswell - https://fr.pcpartpicker.com/b/RRvnTW
AMD - https://fr.pcpartpicker.com/b/2Y9J7P

In pcpp, you can actually see the individual component purchase price for all my builds. :)
 
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zgzdgz

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That's a very clever setup you got there brother ! Looks like the old days of 2017 during which I gamed A LOT OF Wildlands... I actually got the GPU for 584~ that came with let's call it a "cosmetical deffect", dunno still works I guess😄. As for the rtx card prices, I think that's absolutely correct, as there were days when Intel didn't had any real competitors either. Right now I am trying to decide between a good monitor or a cp1600, which price difference around 80eur, as my current displays not nearly good for either gaming or the movie kind of stuff much, both options are great, but I don't know, have any thoughts brother ?
 

Aeacus

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Right now I am trying to decide between a good monitor or a cp1600, which price difference around 80eur, as my current displays not nearly good for either gaming or the movie kind of stuff much, both options are great, but I don't know, have any thoughts brother ?
IF you'd have old UPS and old monitors, where you're contemplating if to upgrade the UPS or monitor, it would make the choice more compelling.

But in an event where you have 0 UPS and 2-3 monitors... is there really a choice? :unsure:

Or let's put it another way;
Let's say you get yourself a fancy new monitor, maybe 2K 240Hz or 4K 120Hz but as soon as there's blackout, you'll loose all your game progress + when very unlucky, full corruption of your OS drive. Clean Win install would bring the PC back online (while loosing all personal data on OS drive in the process), IF your hardware survives the blackout.
Or powerful enough surge and you can kiss your RMx goodbye. Now, RMx is good quality and it would be very unlikely for it to fry any other component. Still, once PSU blows, new one is a must. And that costs money too.

Remind me again, why did you start to look for an UPS in the first place? :unsure:
 
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zgzdgz

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IF you'd have old UPS and old monitors, where you're contemplating if to upgrade the UPS or monitor, it would make the choice more compelling.

But in an event where you have 0 UPS and 2-3 monitors... is there really a choice? :unsure:

Or let's put it another way;
Let's say you get yourself a fancy new monitor, maybe 2K 240Hz or 4K 120Hz but as soon as there's blackout, you'll loose all your game progress + when very unlucky, full corruption of your OS drive. Clean Win install would bring the PC back online (while loosing all personal data on OS drive in the process), IF your hardware survives the blackout.
Or powerful enough surge and you can kiss your RMx goodbye. Now, RMx is good quality and it would be very unlikely for it to fry any other component. Still, once PSU blows, new one is a must. And that costs money too.

Remind me again, why did you start to look for an UPS in the first place? :unsure:
Well, to prevent data loss, to update BIOS safely, and possibly prevent damage to the components, although, I don't know, there could be many reasons friend.
 
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Aeacus

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Well, to prevent data loss, to update BIOS safely, and possibly prevent damage to the components, although, I don't know, there could be many reasons friend.
These are some of the reasons why to get an UPS. While the main one is to keep your PC running when there's blackout, so, you won't loose your unsaved progress/work.

E.g the reason why i got myself UPSes, is exactly due to that.
Blackouts where i live, are extremely rare. Like 1 time in every 2-3 years or so. But the last blackout we had, caused me to loose 2 hours worth of work on an instant and that was the last straw that broke camel's back. So, i did my research and bought the CyberPower UPSes i now have.
Within the ~6 years i've had my UPSes, UPSes have saved our work in two instances. And since proper UPS is very sensitive, i've now also seen it catching brownouts that i had no idea of happening.

All-in-all, i suggest that you look it on the aspect of what you need vs what you want.

UPS is a need, since it provides several benefits no other hardware does, while also protecting your hardware.
Fancy monitor is a want, since it only provides better experience when using a PC. You can still use your PC just fine, even without a fancy monitor.

Everything that is a upgrade over previous is essentially a want. But everything that does something new, that you weren't able to do before, but require, is a need.
E.g PCs can not print out paper documents on their own. And if you require such functionality, you buy yourself printer/scanner/copy machine.

to update BIOS safely
While UPS can provide safe BIOS update, latter is something that your current build doesn't need.

R9 5900X is dead AM4 platform. There are no upgrade paths for your CPU. Newer AMD CPU generations (Ryzen 7000-, 8000- and 9000-series) all need AM5 socket MoBo.
So, unless you plan to go with AM5 or LGA1851 socket CPU, BIOS update is pointless for your build.
 
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zgzdgz

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These are some of the reasons why to get an UPS. While the main one is to keep your PC running when there's blackout, so, you won't loose your unsaved progress/work.

E.g the reason why i got myself UPSes, is exactly due to that.
Blackouts where i live, are extremely rare. Like 1 time in every 2-3 years or so. But the last blackout we had, caused me to loose 2 hours worth of work on an instant and that was the last straw that broke camel's back. So, i did my research and bought the CyberPower UPSes i now have.
Within the ~6 years i've had my UPSes, UPSes have saved our work in two instances. And since proper UPS is very sensitive, i've now also seen it catching brownouts that i had no idea of happening.

All-in-all, i suggest that you look it on the aspect of what you need vs what you want.

UPS is a need, since it provides several benefits no other hardware does, while also protecting your hardware.
Fancy monitor is a want, since it only provides better experience when using a PC. You can still use your PC just fine, even without a fancy monitor.

Everything that is a upgrade over previous is essentially a want. But everything that does something new, that you weren't able to do before, but require, is a need.
E.g PCs can not print out paper documents on their own. And if you require such functionality, you buy yourself printer/scanner/copy machine.


While UPS can provide safe BIOS update, latter is something that your current build doesn't need.

R9 5900X is dead AM4 platform. There are no upgrade paths for your CPU. Newer AMD CPU generations (Ryzen 7000-, 8000- and 9000-series) all need AM5 socket MoBo.
So, unless you plan to go with AM5 or LGA1851 socket CPU, BIOS update is pointless for your build.
Well, I've actually planned to get it both brotha, just not at the same time, since ups takes longer to arrive while something like the monitor usually does not, although that's not always, and it depends on the model of the ups. and the monitor model as well.
The BIOS on AMD mobos usually require to be up to date, since AMDs are not very good friends with PCIE cards that are not GPUs, yet, I think it's just great idea to have the reliable ups in the future for such events as surge, brownout, storms, etc and to avoid bricking your motherboard while doing so, also, l because dual BIOS mobos are a real pain to find it that will work with your ram and your CPU.
For example, cp1600 costs like 315~ with shipping included, while the cheapest APC 2200va model cost 395~ without shipping, so, cp1600 for some reason have a real lengthy deliver dates while the more expensive APC 2200va does not and that makes me wonder if it's worth the wait or get CP instead. Also, I am thinking of using tv and the console (315W~ max use) when the PC will not be use with the ups, since it can pretty much mess the console itself too, but I am not sure if I should of and console plugged it, either powered on or powered off, any ideas?
 

Aeacus

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and console plugged it, either powered on or powered off, any ideas?
Are you asking if you should keep the console in stand-by mode when you're not using it? Vs turning it completely off/unplugging it from UPS?
If so, it depends on your use case and how you generally use hardware.

E.g i don't use stand-by modes or PC sleep modes at all. When i'm done using my PC, i turn it off, completely. This way, there's 0 power draw and when blackout should happen when i'm sleeping, UPS won't blare off, notifying me of power outage, since it needs to keep hardware operational in stand-by mode.

The BIOS on AMD mobos usually require to be up to date, since AMDs are not very good friends with PCIE cards that are not GPUs
When initially building the PC, it is advised to update BIOS on AMD chipsets, since otherwise, either the CPU flat-out doesn't work (if new CPU with old chipset) or RAM XMP doesn't hold. Ryzen CPUs are capricious when it comes to RAM XMP. But once you get your system running fine, there's no need to update the BIOS.

PCI-E add-on cards, especially driverless ones, are iffy. They can or can not work, regardless the BIOS version or chipset in that matter. And their sporadic work can affect both Intel and AMD systems. So, better to buy good quality/reputable brand PCI-E add-on card, rather than some no-name, cheap add-on card from AliExpress.

For example, cp1600 costs like 315~ with shipping included, while the cheapest APC 2200va model cost 395~ without shipping, so, cp1600 for some reason have a real lengthy deliver dates while the more expensive APC 2200va does not and that makes me wonder if it's worth the wait or get CP instead.
That depends on how willing are you to use "inferior" product over better one.

Go read the APC vs CyberPower comparison again that i wrote earlier and decide if you are happy with APC or would you rather use CyberPower. Delivery time is minor in your case, since you've been without UPS thus far and longer delivery time for CyberPower UPS shouldn't matter. That is, unless you know for a fact that some autumn storms are coming and you absolutely need UPS backup before CyberPower UPS is expected to arrive.

I, personally, am willing to pay premium and also wait for longer, to get the specific product for my needs. Vs paying less and getting faster the inferior product that i'm not completely satisfied with.

E.g my AverMedia Ballista Trinity GS315 2.1 speakers that i have;
After extensive research, i decided to get these speakers and they were locally available as well (delivery time within 24h and €0 shipping cost). Sadly, at that time, i didn't have funds to buy them. Came next month and once i had funds to buy them, they were already out of stock. Searched far and wide and found them on amazon.com. So, bought them from amazon, but that meant i had to pay ~50% markup for shipping + delivery took 2 weeks (they were shipped from USA to Europe).

Now, i could've bought some other 2.1 speakers that were available locally, like inferior AverMedia Ballista Duality GS313 or AverMedia Ballista Unity GS310, but i don't like to use inferior products, especially when i can have the product that matches my desires.

For many people, getting cheap and fast products is good enough. Quality, reliability, durability doesn't matter, as long as it is cheap and arrives fast.
But there are people out there, who value good quality products and are willing to wait for longer and/or pay more for a good product. I'm the latter one. Which one are you?
 
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zgzdgz

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Are you asking if you should keep the console in stand-by mode when you're not using it? Vs turning it completely off/unplugging it from UPS?
If so, it depends on your use case and how you generally use hardware.

E.g i don't use stand-by modes or PC sleep modes at all. When i'm done using my PC, i turn it off, completely. This way, there's 0 power draw and when blackout should happen when i'm sleeping, UPS won't blare off, notifying me of power outage, since it needs to keep hardware operational in stand-by mode.


When initially building the PC, it is advised to update BIOS on AMD chipsets, since otherwise, either the CPU flat-out doesn't work (if new CPU with old chipset) or RAM XMP doesn't hold. Ryzen CPUs are capricious when it comes to RAM XMP. But once you get your system running fine, there's no need to update the BIOS.

PCI-E add-on cards, especially driverless ones, are iffy. They can or can not work, regardless the BIOS version or chipset in that matter. And their sporadic work can affect both Intel and AMD systems. So, better to buy good quality/reputable brand PCI-E add-on card, rather than some no-name, cheap add-on card from AliExpress.


That depends on how willing are you to use "inferior" product over better one.

Go read the APC vs CyberPower comparison again that i wrote earlier and decide if you are happy with APC or would you rather use CyberPower. Delivery time is minor in your case, since you've been without UPS thus far and longer delivery time for CyberPower UPS shouldn't matter. That is, unless you know for a fact that some autumn storms are coming and you absolutely need UPS backup before CyberPower UPS is expected to arrive.

I, personally, am willing to pay premium and also wait for longer, to get the specific product for my needs. Vs paying less and getting faster the inferior product that i'm not completely satisfied with.

E.g my AverMedia Ballista Trinity GS315 2.1 speakers that i have;
After extensive research, i decided to get these speakers and they were locally available as well (delivery time within 24h and €0 shipping cost). Sadly, at that time, i didn't have funds to buy them. Came next month and once i had funds to buy them, they were already out of stock. Searched far and wide and found them on amazon.com. So, bought them from amazon, but that meant i had to pay ~50% markup for shipping + delivery took 2 weeks (they were shipped from USA to Europe).

Now, i could've bought some other 2.1 speakers that were available locally, like inferior AverMedia Ballista Duality GS313 or AverMedia Ballista Unity GS310, but i don't like to use inferior products, especially when i can have the product that matches my desires.

For many people, getting cheap and fast products is good enough. Quality, reliability, durability doesn't matter, as long as it is cheap and arrives fast.
But there are people out there, who value good quality products and are willing to wait for longer and/or pay more for a good product. I'm the latter one. Which one are you?
If you are talking about that CP model, then I guess I would wait for it to arrive, since APC is way more expensive and just like you said before, it's not that efficient and has no battery backups on other ups sockets, just the surge protection. I was thinking of keeping the PC and the console plugged into the ups, but only one of them would be actually running, since I mostly use my PC during the workdays and the console during the weekends. As for the PCIE cards, yes, I would never use cheap knockoffs from AliExpress or elsewhere, for example my current PCIE card is AX3000 by TP link, and it's Bluetooth is kind of weird, though I have a sound blaster card as well which was pretty much useless to me since it didn't worked as it should and only the BIOS update would sort of fix the sound problems that me and the other people with AMD CPUs had these type of problems, Intel on the other hand, no problems what's so over, I have no idea why AMD don't like PCIE cards so much friend 😁😄
 

Aeacus

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I was thinking of keeping the PC and the console plugged into the ups, but only one of them would be actually running, since I mostly use my PC during the workdays and the console during the weekends.
You can keep the hardware plugged to the UPS at all times. I've done so. No harm in that.

I have no idea why AMD don't like PCIE cards so much
Well, AMD has their hands full getting even RAM XMP to hold. And being away from CPU market for ~5 years didn't help AMD either.

AMD took a long time since FX-series until they released Ryxen 1000-series. 5 years without releasing a CPU, while Intel releases CPUs every 18 months or so. Eventually when AMD did came with Ryzen series, they couldn't complete with Intel's fine tuned single- and quad-core performance, especially high frequency Intel offered. So, what AMD did, was slapping far more cores to the CPU, thus beating Intel with multi-core performance.

E.g Intel 4th, 6th, 7th gen CPUs, all had 4 cores/threads. Weaker ones 2 cores 4 threads. Only Core i7 was hyperthreaded with 4 cores 8 threads. But since Ryzen 1000-series came 2017 and offered 6 core 12 thread CPU as middle option (e.g R5 1600), Intel had to step up and offer more cores with their CPUs as well. That's why Intel 8th gen CPU core i5 is 6 core/thread CPU. Today, Intel 14th gen Core i5 is 14 core 20 thread CPU, just to compete with AMD and their high core count CPUs.
Intel even had to bring Core i9, which was previously only for servers (e.g i9-7900X) to the consumer segment. First Core i9 in consumer segment was i9-9900K with 8 core 16 threads, just to compete with Ryzen 7 2700X, which also is 8 core 16 thread CPU.

But to come back with AMD and their PCI-E add-on card issue;
Main thing AMD now focuses on, is to have high core/thread CPU which is also stable on those clocks. 2nd focus is to get the RAM XMP stable, which essentially every BIOS update does. Then there's also the chipset itself to focus on and also GPU compatibility with that. PCI-E add-on cards are minor issue for AMD and it is understandable why AMD hasn't put much effort on optimizing those.

Intel, in the other hand, has plenty of experience on making good CPUs. Also, there are no RAM XMP issues when new Intel CPU launches, thus, Intel can focus more on lesser issues, like PCI-E add-on cards optimization.
 
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zgzdgz

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You can keep the hardware plugged to the UPS at all times. I've done so. No harm in that.


Well, AMD has their hands full getting even RAM XMP to hold. And being away from CPU market for ~5 years didn't help AMD either.

AMD took a long time since FX-series until they released Ryxen 1000-series. 5 years without releasing a CPU, while Intel releases CPUs every 18 months or so. Eventually when AMD did came with Ryzen series, they couldn't complete with Intel's fine tuned single- and quad-core performance, especially high frequency Intel offered. So, what AMD did, was slapping far more cores to the CPU, thus beating Intel with multi-core performance.

E.g Intel 4th, 6th, 7th gen CPUs, all had 4 cores/threads. Weaker ones 2 cores 4 threads. Only Core i7 was hyperthreaded with 4 cores 8 threads. But since Ryzen 1000-series came 2017 and offered 6 core 12 thread CPU as middle option (e.g R5 1600), Intel had to step up and offer more cores with their CPUs as well. That's why Intel 8th gen CPU core i5 is 6 core/thread CPU. Today, Intel 14th gen Core i5 is 14 core 20 thread CPU, just to compete with AMD and their high core count CPUs.
Intel even had to bring Core i9, which was previously only for servers (e.g i9-7900X) to the consumer segment. First Core i9 in consumer segment was i9-9900K with 8 core 16 threads, just to compete with Ryzen 7 2700X, which also is 8 core 16 thread CPU.

But to come back with AMD and their PCI-E add-on card issue;
Main thing AMD now focuses on, is to have high core/thread CPU which is also stable on those clocks. 2nd focus is to get the RAM XMP stable, which essentially every BIOS update does. Then there's also the chipset itself to focus on and also GPU compatibility with that. PCI-E add-on cards are minor issue for AMD and it is understandable why AMD hasn't put much effort on optimizing those.

Intel, in the other hand, has plenty of experience on making good CPUs. Also, there are no RAM XMP issues when new Intel CPU launches, thus, Intel can focus more on lesser issues, like PCI-E add-on cards optimization.
That was very insightful, thank you kindly🙏🐺.
Now one last question if I may still ask it dear friend, my house consumes around 10k kw/h~ a year or so and by calculations it's a an awful amount of, so
can a ups somehow save money on the electrical bills or something like that? I meant that if I use it once a week for something like half an hour purely on the battery, will that somehow help to reduce the electrical bills ? Or that would not be a safe practice?
I thought that the heat pumps, recuperation systems, kettles, ovens, microwaves, fridges, water treatment equipment, etc, were consuming the most electricity, not to mention PCs, laptops, tvs, monitors and consoles. It's all about those solar panels, as we consume prolly more than 10,kw/h a year and the solar panels up to10 kw/h wouldn't be very economical.
 
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Aeacus

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so can a ups somehow save money on the electrical bills or something like that?
No.

Look at the UPS as power strip with multiple outlets. Does power strip alone consume electricity or help to save on it? No, it does not.

Line-interactive (and stand-by) topology UPS is similar in operation as normal power strip has it. It takes electricity from one end and provides 6 outlets for other hardware. But what UPS can also do, is when there's blackout, it keeps the connected hardware operational until it's battery capacity allows.

UPS actually increases electricity consumption since compared to power strip; it has battery in it, which it has to charge if you keep your hardware running on battery power too long.

In general;
UPS pros - keeps hardware running when there's blackout (also protects against surges, brownouts and the like due to AVR in it).
UPS cons - consumes more electricity since it's battery needs recharging after using UPS without main power.

not to mention PCs, laptops, tvs, monitors and consoles.
But what does matter to the electricity consumption, is the PSU you have. Namely it's efficiency.
Your RM1000x is 80+ Gold efficiency PSU. My Seasonic PRIME TX-650 is 80+ Titanium efficiency PSU.

80+ efficiency chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_Plus

Your 80+ Gold RMx is 90% efficient on 20% load, 92% efficient on 50% load and 89% efficient on 100% load.
My 80+ Titanium PRIME TX-650 is 94% efficient on 20% load, 96% efficient on 50% load and 94% efficient on 100% load.

To run some numbers;
Let's say you have 300W load on PSU. Your RM1000x would be 90% efficient, meaning that PSU pulls from the wall (or from the UPS) 330W while providing 300W to the components. The extra 30W of power is wasted as excess heat due to the PSU's efficiency.
Now, if you'd have 80+ Titanium PSU, e.g Seasonic PRIME TX-1000, on 300W load, it would be 94% efficient, whereby PSU pulls from the wall/UPS 318W and providing 300W to components. Wasting only 18W worth of power as excess heat.

So,
80+ Gold 1000W PSU on 300W load, pulls 330W from the wall/UPS.
80+ Titanium 1000W PSU on 300W load, pulls 318W from the wall/UPS.
Difference of 12W per second. Not much, but if you add it up; 120W per 10 seconds, 1200W per 100 seconds etc, it makes a big difference.

80+ Titanium PSUs are the most efficient PSUs out there. Due to that, they also cost a lot of money. But if your goal is to save on electricity, you'd want to use the most efficient PSU possible. Also, more efficient PSU means that you'll get longer runtime out of the UPS as well. Since it makes a difference if PSU pulls 330W or 318W from the UPS.

And this is also one of the reasons why i have 80+ Titanium PSUs in use with my UPSes (to get longer runtime and to waste as little electricity as excess heat as possible).

That being said, you could look towards more efficient PSU. It has good benefits for you situation. Only downside is higher cost of a 80+ Titanium PSU.

I thought that the heat pumps, recuperation systems, kettles, ovens, microwaves, fridges, water treatment equipment, etc, were consuming the most electricity, not to mention PCs, laptops, tvs, monitors and consoles.
In general, to save on electricity usage;
* don't use stand-by/sleep modes on any hardware (TV, PC, consoles etc). Since stand-by/sleep modes still consume electricity.
* don't keep lights on in the rooms you're not in. (E.g my missus has a bad habit keeping lights on in kitchen at all times when it is dark, despite we not being there.)
* use LED light bulbs in light fixtures. LED light bulbs consume fraction of the power, compared to the incandescent light bulb (about 10 times the difference) and to the halogen light bulb (about 6 times the difference).
* buy more efficient appliances (in EU, big home appliances like fridge, washing machine etc, have efficiency rating on them, so you can see which are more energy saving appliances).
* with washing machines and dishwasher, don't run them on quarter of half load. Run them at full load capacity to save on electricity and water. Dishwasher is actually convenience. If you have 1-2 dirty plates, better to manually wash them clean in sink, rather than using dishwasher. Same with washing machine, don't use it to wash clean 1-2 clothing articles. Collect the dirty clothes until you can get a full load. Then wash them. Also, newer washing machines have Eco preset. You can use that if you like, but it takes far longer to complete, than regular program. It can save on water though.
* depending on what electricity plan you have, e.g different rates for daytime and nighttime; electricity is usually cheaper at nighttime. So, better to run your washing machine (and dishwasher) at night, to save on electricity.
* in private home, when you have heat pump for warmth, set the output temperature few degrees lower than you've used to. Sure, it is a bit chilly when room temperature is 21C compared to 24C but that 3C degree difference is a huge electricity cost for heat pump to maintain in entire house.
* when you have water boiler for hot water (no central hot water as it is usually in apartment buildings), taking shower consumes 2-3 times less water than taking a bath. And since hot water is heated by water boiler, water boiler also takes a lot of electricity to heat water. When taking a shower, don't keep the water running, since it wastes hot water and electricity needlessly. Instead, get yourself wet, close the water, soap up, scrub and once you're ready to rinse yourself, then turn the water on. It saves on water and electricity too when you have water boiler. Actually same is when washing hands. Don't keep water running at all times. Wet your hands, turn off water, soap the hands, scrub and for rinsing, turn water on.

There are other electricity saving costs as well, but those should suffice.

Oh, don't know about your situation, but i can choose between 5-6 different electricity providers, from whom i get my electricity. So, when one provider's plan is too expensive, i can change the provider who offers cheaper price per kW/h. And within each provider, there are 3 different plans i can pick. Fixed price for kW/h, Exchange price for kW/h and Seasonal price for kW/h (seasonal plan has exchange prices for summer time and fixed prices for winter time).
 
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zgzdgz

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No.

Look at the UPS as power strip with multiple outlets. Does power strip alone consume electricity or help to save on it? No, it does not.

Line-interactive (and stand-by) topology UPS is similar in operation as normal power strip has it. It takes electricity from one end and provides 6 outlets for other hardware. But what UPS can also do, is when there's blackout, it keeps the connected hardware operational until it's battery capacity allows.

UPS actually increases electricity consumption since compared to power strip; it has battery in it, which it has to charge if you keep your hardware running on battery power too long.

In general;
UPS pros - keeps hardware running when there's blackout (also protects against surges, brownouts and the like due to AVR in it).
UPS cons - consumes more electricity since it's battery needs recharging after using UPS without main power.


But what does matter to the electricity consumption, is the PSU you have. Namely it's efficiency.
Your RM1000x is 80+ Gold efficiency PSU. My Seasonic PRIME TX-650 is 80+ Titanium efficiency PSU.

80+ efficiency chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_Plus

Your 80+ Gold RMx is 90% efficient on 20% load, 92% efficient on 50% load and 89% efficient on 100% load.
My 80+ Titanium PRIME TX-650 is 94% efficient on 20% load, 96% efficient on 50% load and 94% efficient on 100% load.

To run some numbers;
Let's say you have 300W load on PSU. Your RM1000x would be 90% efficient, meaning that PSU pulls from the wall (or from the UPS) 330W while providing 300W to the components. The extra 30W of power is wasted as excess heat due to the PSU's efficiency.
Now, if you'd have 80+ Titanium PSU, e.g Seasonic PRIME TX-1000, on 300W load, it would be 94% efficient, whereby PSU pulls from the wall/UPS 318W and providing 300W to components. Wasting only 18W worth of power as excess heat.

So,
80+ Gold 1000W PSU on 300W load, pulls 330W from the wall/UPS.
80+ Titanium 1000W PSU on 300W load, pulls 318W from the wall/UPS.
Difference of 12W per second. Not much, but if you add it up; 120W per 10 seconds, 1200W per 100 seconds etc, it makes a big difference.

80+ Titanium PSUs are the most efficient PSUs out there. Due to that, they also cost a lot of money. But if your goal is to save on electricity, you'd want to use the most efficient PSU possible. Also, more efficient PSU means that you'll get longer runtime out of the UPS as well. Since it makes a difference if PSU pulls 330W or 318W from the UPS.

And this is also one of the reasons why i have 80+ Titanium PSUs in use with my UPSes (to get longer runtime and to waste as little electricity as excess heat as possible).

That being said, you could look towards more efficient PSU. It has good benefits for you situation. Only downside is higher cost of a 80+ Titanium PSU.


In general, to save on electricity usage;
* don't use stand-by/sleep modes on any hardware (TV, PC, consoles etc). Since stand-by/sleep modes still consume electricity.
* don't keep lights on in the rooms you're not in. (E.g my missus has a bad habit keeping lights on in kitchen at all times when it is dark, despite we not being there.)
* use LED light bulbs in light fixtures. LED light bulbs consume fraction of the power, compared to the incandescent light bulb (about 10 times the difference) and to the halogen light bulb (about 6 times the difference).
* buy more efficient appliances (in EU, big home appliances like fridge, washing machine etc, have efficiency rating on them, so you can see which are more energy saving appliances).
* with washing machines and dishwasher, don't run them on quarter of half load. Run them at full load capacity to save on electricity and water. Dishwasher is actually convenience. If you have 1-2 dirty plates, better to manually wash them clean in sink, rather than using dishwasher. Same with washing machine, don't use it to wash clean 1-2 clothing articles. Collect the dirty clothes until you can get a full load. Then wash them. Also, newer washing machines have Eco preset. You can use that if you like, but it takes far longer to complete, than regular program. It can save on water though.
* depending on what electricity plan you have, e.g different rates for daytime and nighttime; electricity is usually cheaper at nighttime. So, better to run your washing machine (and dishwasher) at night, to save on electricity.
* in private home, when you have heat pump for warmth, set the output temperature few degrees lower than you've used to. Sure, it is a bit chilly when room temperature is 21C compared to 24C but that 3C degree difference is a huge electricity cost for heat pump to maintain in entire house.
* when you have water boiler for hot water (no central hot water as it is usually in apartment buildings), taking shower consumes 2-3 times less water than taking a bath. And since hot water is heated by water boiler, water boiler also takes a lot of electricity to heat water. When taking a shower, don't keep the water running, since it wastes hot water and electricity needlessly. Instead, get yourself wet, close the water, soap up, scrub and once you're ready to rinse yourself, then turn the water on. It saves on water and electricity too when you have water boiler. Actually same is when washing hands. Don't keep water running at all times. Wet your hands, turn off water, soap the hands, scrub and for rinsing, turn water on.

There are other electricity saving costs as well, but those should suffice.

Oh, don't know about your situation, but i can choose between 5-6 different electricity providers, from whom i get my electricity. So, when one provider's plan is too expensive, i can change the provider who offers cheaper price per kW/h. And within each provider, there are 3 different plans i can pick. Fixed price for kW/h, Exchange price for kW/h and Seasonal price for kW/h (seasonal plan has exchange prices for summer time and fixed prices for winter time).
I ordered that watt meter that you showed before, I'll see which devices possibly either glitching or drawing way too much power. Again, thank you kindly for all that useful information Dear Sir !
 
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Yeah but still, even the if UPS say that it's pure sine-wave, I should just take their word for it ?
Here's from Gembird I think - > https://gembird.com/item.aspx?id=8737
Here's from PowerWalker I think - > https://powerwalker.com/product/10121119/ ,
https://powerwalker.com/product/10121136/
Also one more from Cyber Power, it's weird though, but still -> I've checked APC and Cyber Power, and currently the APC with 900W and sine-wave ~ costs around 500~, so it's way over the line.
@Aeacus
I'm having a BIG issue with the Cyberpower UPS that my Frontier Verizon ONT is plugged into. I bought the I bought a CyberPower ST 425--inexpensive, with a "simulated" sine wave--to cover the milliseconds it takes for my Tesla Powerwalls to kick in. Before that, the ONT would shut itself off and would have to be rebooted from Frontier's central bank, and during a power outage, that was a nightmare.

The problem is that it has caused constant intermittent, brief internet outages--I had 60 of them in the past 3 days, each lasting a minute or two. The Frontier tech mentioned that he'd seen similar issues with the CyberPower UPSs. So, I unplugged the ONT from the Cyberpower UPS and plugged it directly into the wall outlet--VOILA! 15 hours later and counting, no more mini-outages.

As such, I DO NOT recommend any simulated sine wave UPS. CybePower has some they market as PFC sine wave, but I don't think that is the same as pure sine wave.

Pure sine wave UPS systems provide cleaner, smoother power output than simulated sine wave UPS systems. Pure sine wave output is identical to utility power and can safely run sensitive electronics like computers and medical equipment. In contrast, simulated sine wave output has a stepped waveform that may cause issues for some devices.

The Frontier ONT does not draw a lot of power, and the pure sine wave UPS would only be providing power to the ONT just for the milliseconds before the Tesla Powerwalls kick in. So I don’t need a maxed out pure sine wave UPS, with USBC/A inputs, long battery time, etc. I just need a compact model wall mounted model that plugs into a wall outlet, so I can plug the ONT’s AC cable into it.

Any advice?
 
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Just like there are plethora of different PSU makers, from no-name Chinese crap, all the way to the best that money can buy; same is with UPSes too. Those start out with stand-by topology, outputting square wave, all the way to the online, delta-conversion topology with true/pure sine wave.

PSUs are designed to operate on the main electricity grid, which operates as true/pure sine wave. So, it's not the fault of PSU makers, when UPS makers cheap out on build quality and produce inferior UPSes.

With all products, there are varying degrees of build quality. Overall: cheap, mediocre and premium price. The higher the price - the better the product (usually).


This much i also said already:

Depending on different use case, you have selection of different UPSes.


Well, compare the specs;
APC BGM2200B-GR, specs: https://www.apc.com/shop/hr/en/prod...-Pure-Sine-Wave-Midnight-Black-/P-BGM2200B-GR
CyberPower CP1600EPFCLCD, specs: https://www.cyberpower.com/eu/en/product/sku/cp1600epfclcd#specification

Differences;
Capacity:
APC - 2200VA/ 1320W
CyberPower - 1600VA/ 1000W

Recharge after full drain:
APC - 16 hours
CyberPower - 8 hours (to reach 90% charge)

Runtime:
APC - ??? (runtime chart doesn't open for me, so, i don't know the values)
CyberPower - 2.6 mins at 1000W load; 9.7 mins at 500W load.

Surge suppression (up to):
APC - 1080 Joules
CyberPower - 405 Joules

Input ports:
APC - 1x IEC C20
CyberPower - 1x IEC C14

Output ports:
APC - 2x IEC C13 with battery + surge protection; 2x Schuko with battery + surge protection ; 2x Schuko with only surge protection.

files

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://download.schneider-electric...S_2200B_GR_B_V&p_File_Type=rendition_1500_jpg


CyberPower - 6x Schuko. ALL protected by battery + surge.

e5e81d36-cf37-492b-b015-677630e554d9

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://www.cyberpower.com/eu/en/File/GetImageByGuid/e5e81d36-cf37-492b-b015-677630e554d9

Noise:
APC - 45 dB(A) at 1m.
CyberPower - 0 dB(A). *
* Noise isn't stated on CyberPower UPS specs, but if i take my UPS as baseline, which is predecessor of the one in current comparison, then i can say that my UPS noise output is 0 dB(A). Meaning, it is dead silent. When it switches to battery power, a LOUD alarm starts beeping, letting you know that main power went out, so, you can save your work and shut down your PC.

Conclusion; despite them both being true/pure sine wave and line-interactive topology UPSes, there are differences between the two.
Your call which one to pick.

Personally, i'd go with CyberPower, since it has far better selection of output ports than APC has them.
With APC, two ports are dedicated for PC use (IEC C13) and you may need to buy IEC C14 to IEC C14 cable as well, since, e.g my PSU cable has Schuko on the other end and not the IEC C14 female plug.
Also, two of the Schuko sockets on APC only have surge protection, without no battery backup. These two Schuko sockets act like glorified surge protection.
With CyberPower UPS, all it's output sockets are Schuko and there is no issue of buying dedicated cable. Also, all output ports are backed by battery and surge protector. So, IMO, CyberPower is more convenient to use.
Is there a US version of these UPSs?
 

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The only situation where sine wave output is important is with the use of a generator. With a square wave output they can damage electronics and this is particularly a problem with generators used in boats.

More important than the output is having a minimum voltage level maintained. My utility company frequently is provided low voltage to my house and so I have started to go back to using line conditioners instead of a UPS for my expensive electronic equipment. I found that Tripp-Lite is now being sold by Home Depot.

I tried last week to find OEM batteries for my APC and Cyber Power UPS units and found nothing. It used to be I could buy replacement batteries at a local office supply store. The second tier batteries have only a 1-year warranty and the idea of spending $100 a year for replacement batteries and paying the disposal fees is not appealing.
 
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The only situation where sine wave output is important is with the use of a generator. With a square wave output they can damage electronics and this is particularly a problem with generators used in boats.
What post are you referring to?

I have a Panamax line conditioner in my entertainment system to protect the equipment, so I get that.

My understanding is that pure sine wave output is not about protecting equipment, it's about the quality of power provided.
 

Aeacus

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Any advice?
It's frowned upon to hijack someone else's topic. But if given it doesn't go into full discussion, i can reply to you. (Note: if mod sees it, they can purge the topic.)

I bought a CyberPower ST 425--inexpensive, with a "simulated" sine wave--
If you pay peanuts - you will get monkeys. Simple as that.

CybePower has some they market as PFC sine wave, but I don't think that is the same as pure sine wave.
CyberPower PFC Sine Wave series is the one that outputs true/pure sine wave. I think you've already read from this topic that my two UPSes are also from PFC Sine Wave series.

Is there a US version of these UPSs?
There is.
Lineup: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups/pfc-sinewave/

I just need a compact model wall mounted model that plugs into a wall outlet, so I can plug the ONT’s AC cable into it.
For US market, there are no wall mountable units from CyberPower. Well, unless you jerry-rig a stand for the rackmount or tower type UPS.

But Tripp Lite does offer wall mountable units. E.g:
Eaton AVR550U (550VA/300W, line-interactive topology, PWM sine wave);
specs: https://tripplite.eaton.com/avr-ser...compact-line-interactive-ups-usb-port~AVR550U

Full lineup: https://tripplite.eaton.com/products/ups-battery-backup-home-office-desktop~11-54
 
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It's frowned upon to hijack someone else's topic. But if given it doesn't go into full discussion, i can reply to you. (Note: if mod sees it, they can purge the topic.)


If you pay peanuts - you will get monkeys. Simple as that.


CyberPower PFC Sine Wave series is the one that outputs true/pure sine wave. I think you've already read from this topic that my two UPSes are also from PFC Sine Wave series.


There is.
Lineup: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups/pfc-sinewave/


For US market, there are no wall mountable units from CyberPower. Well, unless you jerry-rig a stand for the rackmount or tower type UPS.

But Tripp Lite does offer wall mountable units. E.g:
Eaton AVR550U (550VA/300W, line-interactive topology, PWM sine wave);
specs: https://tripplite.eaton.com/avr-ser...compact-line-interactive-ups-usb-port~AVR550U

Full lineup: https://tripplite.eaton.com/products/ups-battery-backup-home-office-desktop~11-54
Thank you!
 
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Aeacus

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What is PWM sine wave compared to pure sine wave?
To generate AC true/pure sine wave from DC, inverter requires a linear amplification system. But this adds up to a lot of power losses (~35% of the power output).
PWM mimics true/pure sine wave with a fraction of the losses (5-10% of the power output), albeit with some harmonic distortion that is removed using filters.

E.g here's how AC output waveform looks after one set of low-pass filtering of PWM sine wave:

Figure-7-3.png

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://electricalacademia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Figure-7-3.png

It looks almost as true/pure sine wave, but does have some distortions in it. Distortions can be removed with additional filtering, to create true/pure sine wave, but there will be efficiency loss due to additional filtering.

Another option is making the PWM signal more precise. E.g:

the-duty-cycle-of-pwm-changes-according-to-sine-rule.jpg

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://www.inverter.com/images/uploaded/the-duty-cycle-of-pwm-changes-according-to-sine-rule.jpg
As shown in the figure above, the duty cycle of the PWM changes according to the sine rule. PWM with a large duty cycle is generated in the place where the voltage amplitude is large, and a PWM with a small duty cycle is generated in the place where voltage amplitude is small. During a short time, the average output voltage of PWM is shown by the red line, which can be seen that the waveform has produced a waveform similar to a sine wave. The more precise the PWM is, the smoother the sine wave.

Compared to the true/pure sine wave, PWM sine wave is far closer to the perfection than simulated sine wave is. Thus, PWM sine wave should suffice for sensitive electronics (especially when PWM sine wave is well filtered or PWM signal itself is very precise).

sine-wave-diagram.jpg

Direct link if image doesn't load: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/sine-wave-diagram.jpg
 
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Wow! Thank you so much for this explanation! I'm a total non-tech person, and I wish I didn't have to know all this. o_O
So, if I understand you correctly, you think the Tripp Eaton AVR550U (550VA/300W, line-interactive topology, PWM sine wave) UPS would work?
 

Aeacus

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So, if I understand you correctly, you think the Tripp Eaton AVR550U (550VA/300W, line-interactive topology, PWM sine wave) UPS would work?
Yes.

PWM sine wave is much better and nigh-close (if not exact match) to true/pure sine wave. FAR better than simulated sine wave, which you had issues with (most likely due to the power gap, what simulated sine wave has).
Also, i don't think your optical network terminal would be so sensitive to waveform, that it only works on true/pure sine wave. It should have some lee-way, where PWM sine wave fits nicely.

When getting the UPS and after recharging it's battery, make a simple test. Plug your ONT to it and pull the UPS plug from the wall, thus forcing the ONT to be powered off from UPS. This way you can tell on the spot if it works or not.
That's how i tested my UPSes, as soon as they arrived and i set them up. Rather than waiting eventual blackout, that comes ~once a year where i live.
 
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Yes.

PWM sine wave is much better and nigh-close (if not exact match) to true/pure sine wave. FAR better than simulated sine wave, which you had issues with (most likely due to the power gap, what simulated sine wave has).
Also, i don't think your optical network terminal would be so sensitive to waveform, that it only works on true/pure sine wave. It should have some lee-way, where PWM sine wave fits nicely.

When getting the UPS and after recharging it's battery, make a simple test. Plug your ONT to it and pull the UPS plug from the wall, thus forcing the ONT to be powered off from UPS. This way you can tell on the spot if it works or not.
That's how i tested my UPSes, as soon as they arrived and i set them up. Rather than waiting eventual blackout, that comes ~once a year where i live.
Well, the intermittent Internet outages that I have been having have happened in the absence of any power outages at all!

It has happened with the ONT plugged into the Cyberpower UPS, which is plugged into the wall outlet. So the Cyberpower UPS is doing something to the electrical power that is affecting the ONT’s ability to provide a seamless Internet signal.

I know this because I unplugged the ONT from the Cyberpower UPS, then plugged it directly into the wall outlet, and the dozens of mini Internet outages stopped. I haven’t had one since.
 
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