[SOLVED] Are VRM Heatsinks Necessary?

[Regev]

I was going to get the Gigabyte B450M-S2H or B550M-S2H for a Ryzen 3700X. However, someone told me I should get something with 'better heatsinks on the VRM' or something. That seemed weird to me - why do they make MBs without VRM heatsinks then? I googled and found this:

"It depends on the design of the VRM. Most VRMs are designed so that the heat-tabs of the MOSFETs are soldered to the motherboard. The motherboard, itself, forms the heatsink for the VRM. The top surface of the MOSFETs is insulated, so very little heat flows up. However, a lot of a manufacturers still add heatsinks for decoration purposes. Some modern VRMs are now designed so that the heat-tabs of the MOSFETS are on the top surface - these are mainly used in GPUs and laptops. On these, the heatsink is essential, as these VRMs do not use the motherboard as a heatsink."

Is that true? And if so - will the GB B450M/B550M S2H be enough for a non-overclocked 3700X (WraithPrism-ed) without throttling or putting the CPU in danger? Those motherboards have all the features I need, but I won't buy a MB that puts the CPU at risk.

Thanks <3

 

[madmatt30]

ASRock B450-Pro 4 is a good board IF you can ensure its updated to run gen 2 ryzen before buying.

It may be only a physical 3 phase but the phase doubling just works, and it works well.

Its also one of the cheapest boards on there.

Own that board myself, running a ryzen 7 albeit a gen one 1700

It is overclocked to 3.9ghz and it runs well, no issues at all.

That said, I bought that board before either gen 2 ryzen or b550 were released. If buying now I'd go with a b550 without a doubt.

It depends if you ever have upgrade plans regarding a 12c/12 thread ryzen or you expect to run that 3700x for the foreseeable futur3+e.

 

[Regev]

Here's the B450 Tomahawk's VRM @Darkbreeze said was excellent:

Here's the one on the B550 S2H:

And here's the Bazooka B550:

It seems to me as if people perceive the S2H to be inferior in quality because of its low price. But the power specs look better than the Bazooka which is double the price (unless 4+2 with x2 on the high & low sides is better than 5+3 with x1). Could it be that Gigabyte priced it that way, not because of its quality, but simply to have a performant product on the low-end market?

@madmatt30 Oh, nice man! Thanks. Which cooler are you using? I did look into native vs virtual phases and found this (on v12-phase VRMs):

"While still better than regular 6 phase parts, they’re not as efficient as true 8 or 10 phase VRMs. They induce a delay and reduce the frequency of supplied current in half. Furthermore, only one of the two can be switched on at a time. The first one sees a modest delay but the second one is usually delayed by half a cycle, and in terms of precision, even the former is rather substantial. While multi-phase VRMs kick in instantly, or one after the other without a notable delay in between, pseudo-phases or doublers induce a latency which reduces the overall efficiency. Again, a 5 phase VRM doubled to 10 is less efficient than a native 7 or 8 phase VRM. But a 10 phase (doubled) VRM is still better than a 5 phase and is a cheap trick to allow a higher power draw."

In case someone finds this useful.

 

[Regev]

Thanks guys! As for the cooler, which one would you get?

A Silentium Fortis 3 as @madmatt30 recommended, or something like the L12S or U12S by Noctua? I really do want it to work as silently as possible. Just the size scares me, coolers these days look so gigantic! If the motherboard is hung under desk, I don't want it protruding and hitting my legs

 

[Regev]

Those coolers are enormous. Is something like that really necessary for a 3700X when overclocking isn't planned at all?

I'm also worried about what you mentioned, @madmatt30 . I mean, those are 1KG+ coolers! Don't they bend motherboards even when on regular cases where the motherboard is standing vertical on that side panel? I would imagine that's a lot of pressure 24/7.

As for the GPUs, the moment those new APUs are coming out I'm ditching the RX580, selling the 3700x, and getting myself one of those for the smaller footprint.

 

[Regev]

The D15 or the U12/14 is enough?

Also you said "The only issue I have is if the board is if the board is sittimg upside down with the cooler and gpu facing downwards there is going to be a lot of stress on the board itself. Youre going to have to bracket the cooler and the gpu to the desk somehow." Any idea how to bracket it?

 

[Regev]

As for the size of the heatsinks, yes, it IS necessary that they be that large. If they could be smaller and be just as effective then they would be. But they can't, so they aren't.

I understand that the L-12S will never cool nearly as hardcore as the D15S, but what practical difference will it make (assuming the CPU won't throttle with the L-12S) if the CPU will run at, say, 40/70c idle/load rather than 35/60 or so? Its longevity will decrease from 15 years to 10 years? I mean, it will be replaced way sooner anyway.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I like it too, and also would like to do one, but I can't find a way to be ok with a system that is just freeballing it there under the desk surface like the guy in that video did it. It really HAS to have some kind of protection from incidental contact else it's just a problem waiting for the right time to become obvious.

 

[Regev]

The practical difference will be the fact that you will SUFFER when it comes to boost profiles. It literally has NOTHING to do with overclocking. Without a substantially sufficient cooler that keeps temps well below whatever AMD has decided it should be running at since the last chipset update (YES, that's a shot across the bow AMD) you will neither achieve nor sustain whatever the conditional maximum or sustained boost speeds are, and we see this a LOT even for people with very good, but smaller, tower coolers like the Scythe Mugen rev.B which is a good 120mm heatsink but simply lacks the ability to fully manage the thermal envelope to the level it SHOULD be managed to on a CPU like the 3700x or higher.

Let's see if I understand - what you mean is that with AMD's PBO I won't be able to squeeze the maximum out of the 3700x without something beefy like the NH-D15?
But that's a $100 cooler - 33% of the 3700X price! Is the performance increase even close to 33%? One could just buy a 3800x for $35 more or a 3900x for $175 more and stay with the stock cooler. Then replace the damn thing after 3-5 years What am I missing here?

 

[Regev]

@Darkbreeze Apologies, I suppose I mentioned D15 because it's always there in my subconscious - I can get it for 50% off It's just the size that scares me. It's enormous! Plus this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15x8KNY70l8&t=423s

Not an impressive difference at all. What am I missing? Os it not indicative of sustaining the boost speeds for longer periods?

Also what's the point of PBO if the improvements are so slim?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It_VdcGR66o

 

[Regev]

@Darkbreeze man, I must be missing something Watched what you linked to from Steve, I see a 2.5% clock speed improvement gained going from reducing the temps 75c to 60c (which is the expected difference between stock fan and a high-end air cooler, right?). Barring seeing a cooler as a lifetime investment, why would anybody spend $50-100 for such a slim improvement?

 

[Regev]

Noise - now that's a fair argument. I'd shell money for that, not for the 2.5% clock speed boost or 10 fewer degrees. Which will be the most silent:

D15, U12S, L9a or L12S or any other ~$50 cooler?
(I can get all these Noctuas for that price)

 

[Regev]

That site doesn't take into account all the local Hebrew sites . We do have these:

Every model of NOCTUA (can get any of the above for $50 through some discount)
BE QUIET! DARK ROCK PRO 3
BE QUIET! DARK ROCK PRO 4
CORSAIR A500 DUAL FAN CPU COOLER
GIGABYTE COOLER FOR CPU ATC800
BE QUIET! CPU COOLING SHADOW
ARCTIC COOLING FREEZER 34
COOLERMASTER HYPER 212 BLACK
ANTEC C400 GLACIAL CPU
ZALMAN CNPS20X
Phanteks PH-TC14PE White Twin Tower

There are more (basically anything from CM, Noctua, Zalman, AC, BeQuiet!, Corsair, Phanteks, Gigabyte and some others).

 

[Regev]

Most silent?

 

[Regev]

In any case, any of those would work fine but honestly this might be one of the very best situations in which an AIO, which I usually don't lean towards, could be useful because you can get one fairly cheap, and it can be mounted in such a way that there is little or no chance of any potential leak ever causing a problem, plus the radiator could be mounted somewhere out of the way and eliminate any possibility of knee or other contact as discussed before.
se are just MY opinions. Others opinions may or may not agree with them.

Which AIO meets your 'fairly cheap'?

Here's our selection of water coolers. (Also this one)
(Divide prices by 3.5 to get the USD value)

I was just worried the AIOs will be too noisy -- I see lots of fans on the radiator, plus I imagine the gurgling sound of the pump not the most pleasant..?

 

[Regev]

Well, the pump, makes noise. No argument there. That's just going to happen, and it's a big part of why I don't normally recommend them. The fans however, two fans on a radiator don't make any more noise than two fans on a heatsink if you're talking about the same two fans.

No offense, but that's almost as bad as Chinese, even with the translator. There's just no way to get used to typed words going right to left instead of left to right, and the website gets the words all out of order. LOL. It's just me, but it's funny.

Here are the models equivalent to the air cooler (~$50-100) in price:

Asetek 510LC BASIC WATERCOOLING +
ANTEC K120
Asetek 545LC WATERCOOLING +
CoolerMaster MasterLiquid ML240L
Antec Mercury 120
Antec Mercury 360
Antec Neptune 120
COUGAR AQUA-120
ANTEC K240
Antec Neptune 240
ARCTIC LIQUID FREEZER II - 240
ARCTIC LIQUID FREEZER II - 280
CoolerMaster MasterLiquid ML240L V2
COOLERMASTER ML360L
Cooler Master Liquid ML120R
CORSAIR HYDRO H100X
COUGAR AQUA-240
COUGAR AQUA-280
COUGAR AQUA-360
Antec Kuhler H2O K240


How bad and often is that gurgling noise??

 

[Regev]

It wasn't Arabic, it was Hebrew, I think.

Yep Very different - for instance the word "fresh":

Hebrew: טרי
Arabic: طري

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yeah, none of those are particularly quiet examples of AIO cooling. Probably best to stick with air.

 

[simonyeeklang]

Also,the Prism's are very loud! I have one on a 3600X and even when just browsing or watching netflix etc it continuously throttles up and down,(yes,it's doing it's job but it is very,very audible.)

Same as the Prism Cooler for the Ryzen 7 3700x.

 

[simonyeeklang]

Here's the B450 Tomahawk's VRM @Darkbreeze said was excellent:

Here's the one on the B550 S2H:

And here's the Bazooka B550:

It seems to me as if people perceive the S2H to be inferior in quality because of its low price. But the power specs look better than the Bazooka which is double the price (unless 4+2 with x2 on the high & low sides is better than 5+3 with x1). Could it be that Gigabyte priced it that way, not because of its quality, but simply to have a performant product on the low-end market?

@madmatt30 Oh, nice man! Thanks. Which cooler are you using? I did look into native vs virtual phases and found this (on v12-phase VRMs):

"While still better than regular 6 phase parts, they’re not as efficient as true 8 or 10 phase VRMs. They induce a delay and reduce the frequency of supplied current in half. Furthermore, only one of the two can be switched on at a time. The first one sees a modest delay but the second one is usually delayed by half a cycle, and in terms of precision, even the former is rather substantial. While multi-phase VRMs kick in instantly, or one after the other without a notable delay in between, pseudo-phases or doublers induce a latency which reduces the overall efficiency. Again, a 5 phase VRM doubled to 10 is less efficient than a native 7 or 8 phase VRM. But a 10 phase (doubled) VRM is still better than a 5 phase and is a cheap trick to allow a higher power draw."

In case someone finds this useful.

Then my MSI Tomahawk B450 Max need a PSU that is 750 watt?
Or still can stick with 650 Watt (VANTEC)?

 

[Regev]

Yeah, none of those are particularly quiet examples of AIO cooling. Probably best to stick with air.

Which will be most quiet of the D15, U12S, U12A, L12S, or other premium air coolers? Forget size or hardcore performance, I'm talking pure noise levels. If needed, I can put the computer in the vitrine's top shelf or something so that it won't interfere with my knees

 

[Darkbreeze]

Then my MSI Tomahawk B450 Max need a PSU that is 750 watt?
Or still can stick with 650 Watt (VANTEC)?

If you have questions of your own, please start your own thread. Don't ask questions that don't pertain to the OP in somebody else's thread. Thanks.

 

[Regev]

Thanks @Darkbreeze & @madmatt30, you guys are awesome.

btw one YouTube wrote to me (about the differences, or non-differences if you will, between the D15,U12S, L12S):

"The 3700x in stock form will run quite hot on all 3 which I can't believe but that's how agressive the voltage is in stock form. For the 3700x I would try my quick manual OC (check my other videos please in yhe A4 playlist) for 4.0 GHz @ 1.075v which will give you the same stock performanxe but at 20-25 lower degrees. I mean I even cooled the 3700x with this setting with the L9a. So yeah then no matter what you get it will be quiet. So to answer your question, the noise difference if you do the manual oc will be non-existent between those 3 coolers. If you use the 3700x in stock form than there will be a marginal noise difference maybe 2-3 decibels between all 3 gradually at 80% rpm in cpu load."

 

[Karadjgne]

Lol, very true.

 

[Regev]

I mean, frack, I can run ANY CPU at grossly reduced voltages and they will run WAY cooler. They will also be entirely unstable. That's not to say that you can't in some cases manually configure an overclock so that you end up with the same overall performance at a lower thermal penalty from reduced voltage, because sometimes you can, but the degree to which they are overstating and oversimplifying the process, and then claiming to be able to cool it with an L9a, that's just sheer ridiculousness.

@Darkbreeze he linked to this:

View: https://youtu.be/AHuhcwsz0Bc?t=563