ATi have just been caught cheating.

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I gave up trying to remind you of what you said about X800 = OC'd R9800 and how it was wrong (simplistic to say the least), simply because you should know better and have been proven otherwise but refuse to listen, whatever, so be it, not worth the effort. However, just one thing;

Please STOP saying Unreal 3! It's NOT Unreal 3 that's been put before us, it's the Unreal Engine 3! It's also not the Unreal 3 engine (although it may become part of it).
Two different things. The Unreal Engine 3 is already being incorporated in titles, but only in very small piece meal way.

Also even once games finally ship that are based on it, the engine will better fit the cards that are released at that time, and all the previous generations will play them the way that the GF4ti , R8500 and GF3ti play games now. So I wouldn't recommend that ANYONE upgrade for it. The mantra which still holds true for 90% of the people here, <b>upgrade for the games you will play now, not some far off games you may play in the lifetime of your card/system/rig.</b>

I doubt either card will hold up as a wise choice now, for a game that won't ship until a point in time when the mid-range cards will kick these cards A$$es.

I'm not going to debate the merits of one or the other with you, because you won't listen anyways, so it's pointless and fruitless.

However, it's not 'Unreal 3', ok?


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
I just responded to you in your thread about this, but I'll also address it as I can (maybe a little broader than need be) here.

The main thing is that the cards are VERY close, regardless of what anyone says they are very close to each other. One has some potential strength in it's skill sets (the NV4X) and the other has Great Brute strength and good CURRENT shader performance (when looked at as a whole).

Unlike last generation, neither card will leave you with a piece of junk within a years time.

As for growing it's a tricky question, there is potential for the NV40's SM3.0 features to add benifit, but that's not proven yet, and likely won't be for quite some time. And when those titles do come, you will likely have another card. Even HL2 and D3 will not exploit much beyond the FX5900/R9800's design, let alone the X800. A point where you may see divergence is so far off as to be moot now (because we can all talk about possibilites, but few of those will be realized anytime soon).

While ATI hasn't added much, there isn't much reason to add anything before summer of next year IMO. How long have we been waiting for this year's titles? Since the same time the LAST generation came out. The same will be true for those next titles. HL2 as an example comes no where close to exhausting the limits PS2.0 / DX9.0A-B. So this generation is definitely not a minimum requirement or even suggested for quite some time. They will always recommend more, but I doubt you'll see the GF6800 being able to handle a title at 1280x1024 or 16x12 where the X800 can only handle one res below. And there may be minute differences in the future but those minute differences now favour the X800 in most cases, so it's a balanced trade-off.

At this time nV doesn't even have great demos to show off the capabilites of of their SM3/PS3.0 compatibility over the X800s PS2.B, so it doesn't make a compelling NOW feature, and there is no way of proving that it can do things that the X800 can't, and that even when those features arrve that it can handle them itself. Right now it's crystal ball gazing.

Ati also has 3DC compression, which may or may not be useful in the near futre. They claim it will be, just like nV claims SM3.0 will be but neither can make a compelling case except for stills. True Displacement Mapping vs Virtual Displacement Mapping/Parallax Mapping/Offset Mapping is a bit of an argument, but beyond rather minor demos, which are impressive for the effect, no one can really press their point on that either since there is little exploitation. the NV40 is capable of true displacement mapping, but no one is sure if it is powerful enough to really use it, and both may do virtual displacement mapping which appears to be quicker for this generation.
The growth for tha X800 isn't completely limited it has alot of room to grow as well and has far more functionality than people give it credit for. Sure it's doesn't have quite as many checkboxes, but don't think that some magically delicious drivers will always make cards better. Rellying on that didn't help anyone last generation make their more feature rich NV3X surpass the R3XX. So don't relly on maybes when spending your money.

As for PCI-EX that's the kicker. Buy either of these cards, and your long term strategy better fit the current mobo socket configurations, because no dual core AMD64 or Intel64/P5 for you, or any other development, until you move on to a PCI-EX card.

If you are not going to buy another graphics card for 2+ years, then yes the NV4X series might give you some added longevity. However you may be missing out on benfitis that ATI has while waiting for those additional features to make a showing or be exploited. That's the other side of the coin you'll have to consider. If I could get an NV4X based mobile chip in my laptop upgrade that outperforms the R9700, then I'd go for it pretty much without question, but only because I tend to hold on to my laptops for a long time. If the MXM or PCI-EX mobile versions take off maybe I'd go for cheap now, and upgrade later. But that's unlike a desktop, your choices there change very quickly. Spending $200 extra for a card now (Ultra or XT) might perform like crap compared to next year's mid-range cards by which time you could've put that saved money into a new card. So how important is performance in 2006 to you right now, and how much do you want to focus on that unproven possibility?

We have roadmaps, and features, but no one is sure when we'll actually see any of this be practically applied to games other than as window dressing. Ground up builds are harder than claiming PS3.0 support in FartCry.

I'd say it's safe to say no one knows the futre of either of these cards. It's not the solid answer you wanted, but I think it is closer to the truth than most prognoticators with their conviction that there is one true winner/path.

The best path in my opinion; buy for now, sell later to upgrade, then sell that to upgrade again. Anyone buying longterm is basically rolling the dice.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
the NV40 is capable of true displacement mapping

not really. it can do ONE additional step for doing full hw supported true displacement mapping. means, it can help the cpu a bit more. nothing more.

and btw, there is a 100% as good working algorithm existing, to do the same workload on gpu and on cpu, for any dx9 capable card. nv40 just makes it more easy and efficient, due the direct support.

but we need tesselation, something like truform, in hw. nv40 doesn't deliver that. doing that yourself kills performance.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
 
not really. it can do ONE additional step for doing full hw supported true displacement mapping. means, it can help the cpu a bit more. nothing more.
I defer to your knowledge in this case. Thanks for the info.

So, really, it's not so much of a difference to be 'remarkable' as some people seem to be making it out to be, it will act more as an accelerator in a sense. That would explain some scepticism about speed improvements, since it still needs to consume system resources as well and it's 100% independant.

MMmmm, Dave's back, I learnded me sumtin' new today, SweEet!

Thanks Dave! 😎


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
i'm just bored today. i will not give much support into this forum (as well as others). i don't have much time to spend normally.

its like the ps2.x technologies. while they are there, and can be useful, they are not a full milestone, so, will get useless one day. thats the nvidia displacement mapping technology, partially, too. its not, as its part of the vs3.0 spec, and thus, will stay. but as long as we need a software tesselation unit in front, as we do now, it has only restricted usages.

too bad truform died out. it was a great piece of hw, and would ROCK on gf6800 now.

matrox is the only one with real displacement mapping hw support till now. thats sad.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
 
Truform is an excellent technolgy, and your right too bad it died out, hopefully Ogl will bring it back with shader 3.0 support, who knows though,


ok the 96 to 128 bit comaparision, another fellow developer and me were discussing about it, this is what we came up with

His thoughts:
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Ok well i'll break down roughly what ATi are doing as although very clever it is also extremely questionable.
ATi Radeon 9-Series Cards have 128bit Colour, they all have.
Microsoft's minimum shader spec for Pixel Shader 1.x and 2.0 is 24bit FP; you can also use 32bit FP, and NVIDIA card are capable of using 16bit HP ... however when NVIDIA do it, they're simply lowering the precision so calculations take less time.

Now although visually the difference between 24bit per pixel and 32bit per pixel is neglegable; it is obvious that 16bit you get noticeable banding.

Effectivly how the Radoens work is by using the lower 24bit Precision Pipeline in DirectX (they do in OpenGL as well but they can't actually achieve what they do with DirectX, but i'll explain why later).

So firstly they've lightened their pipeline but roughly 8bit.
However, 24bit calculation is actually slower than 32bit...

16bit Calculations use a Half-Register as you'll most probably know, in order to do 24bit you need to use 3/4 which means that you'd need to just use either a single register or 2 half registers for calculation.

The extra codecing required actually makes the process slower than 32bit colour. So from step 1 ATi would appear to be doing thier colour calculations in order to slow them down right?

Wrong. What they're doing is accessing a lower palette.
24bit colour gives you around 16million colours to play with, this is easier and quicker to calculate a 16bit floating point into than 4billion colours.

So basically what goes on behind the scenes is they take a texture
-> convert into 16bit HP Floating Point Colour, run it through via a half-register and then convert to 24bit FP Floating Point Colour when rendering and giving DirectX it's data.

This makes everything in your system relatively happy and instantly something which should be performing slower is actually performing faster.

If only this was actually the end of the 'optimization'...
Radeons go one step further by converting everything in thier memory to 16bit, this is why they take longer even though their memory interface should be almost identical speed to an equivalent Geforce FX.

This way the card says it's doing 32bit Colour in DirectX which allows it to use the entire 128bit Floating Point; DirectX Operations are told they're using 24bit Precision; and as the driver upload the textures as 16bit Precision the card sets into Half Register mode and believes it is using that.

Obviously in order to trick DirectX into believe this you need to rework some of the aspects of it such as texture access, and pipeline access...

This is now 'underground' general knowledge simply for the fact that when Half-Life 2 was stolen, in the source amongst other things is a build for DirectX. This build happened to have laced through it comments from a guy (can't remember his name right now) but he 'was' based in ATi Canada; i very much doubt he has his job anymore. But basically it was outline explanations for the Valve staff on how to optimize their access of DirectX 8.1 and 9.0 specifically for what Radeon cards were doing.

Don't get me wrong it is an extremely clever system to achieve alot of speed without alot of colour loss which ATi are slowly compensating for with each driver release with a form of 'digital vibrance', kinda why Cat no longer has these color compensation controls like Forceware now.

I am still learning alot about the Radoen pipeline currently and i don't remember hearing anything about the integer pipeline. As I've seen the integer pipelines actually seem not that far in speed from each other, so my first guess would be that it is relatively unchanged because you can't really achieve the same level of optimization on it.

___________________________________________________________


My thoughts

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The Geforce FX should be running FP16 quite a bit quicker, that was the whole point in the format; but even so NVIDIA still use a Full Register for each Floating Point;

Ati Radeon however don't... they use a Half-Register. And the reason they don't loose quality like the FX is because they're calculating 16bit within a 24bit space; So unless you are using extreme ranges in light you won't notice the banding because it isn't actually using 16bit color output.

An easier way to understand all of this is to think about CPU's and how they work...
Particularly the CISC-Based X86 and RISC-Based PowerPC.

Now as most will understand, the X86 works on the basis of broken down registers for data.

8 -> 16 -> 32bit all within the same register, this allows the processor to double or even quadruple up information and process it all at once.
(Hence why they're CISC/MISC processors because of Multiple Operations at once)

the PowerPC however has a 32bit Register, and 32bit is what it will process.

This is exactly how the Geforce FX and Radeon 9-Series work :) So basically how the Radeon is gaining such a large speed advantage over the FX is partly in the architecture of the VPU, but also in the driver that adapt things to take advantage of this architecture.

Radeons can stack up 2x 16bit Operations within a Texture Pass; Geforce can stack up 1x 32 Operations within a Texture Pass; Both cards have a maximum of 16 Passes Per Pipeline, and between 4 and 8 pipelines depending on the class of card.

This effectively allows the Radeons to process double the data in a single pass.
the FP24's speed depends entirely on what is going on; but it is slower... because the decoding for the format is done via the CPU; The CPU can use 1 Register for 16bit, 1 Register for 32bit, but it doesn't have a 24bit Register; so it has to do 3x 8bit Register Operations.

Or it can up the range to 32bit; then the palette is larger and it has to compact it back down once finished. Everything to do with 24bit operations really is a waste considering no one uses 24bit Registers.

ATI's site clearly states that the Radeon has 128bit Color, in order to have this it require 128bit (4x32bit) Register for that Color.
It is impossible to use 96bit (4x24bit) Registers and end up with 128bit Color; There's a document, that I'll have to find again that specifically states that ATi cards calculate using a 96bit Register but output up to 128bit Color (which technically just means it is using a 128bit Palette not Color)

Anyway you look at these cards, ALOT doesn't add up about them from face value. Especially considering if you look at the color modes they can achieve - 24bit / 32bit / 48bit / 64bit / 128bit see now that makes no sense to me! ... if they are using 24bit Registers why is the ONLY native color mode they can do not there?!

I think if you do some tests you will find that they're not using 24bit like ATi claims.

It's using a 24bit Palette, yes; but not 24bit Color...

Very similar to what the PlayStation 2 does to get so much of its speed.

A good demo to show this off is actually the Light Accentuation DirectX9 demo; as it perfectly shows the banding that occurs.

The Geforce FX has banding problems, but this is exclusive to the FX range; you test it using PS 1.1 with a Radeon 9-Series against a Geforce 4 Ti and open in Photoshop, you'll see the differences.

As I've said, I think it is an extremely clever method to achieve a lot more speed than the card should be pushing, especially as color perception at real-time isn't noticeable, particularly in games.
(however Carmack has commented on the difference before which he found strange)
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i will not give much support into this forum (as well as others). i don't have much time to spend normally.
Yeah I know, no worries, I know where you hang mostly when you do have time, and I definitely learn alot more there.

too bad truform died out. it was a great piece of hw, and would ROCK on gf6800 now.
Yeah I am soo with you there. I love Morrowind, and with TruForm it looks AWESOME. Phial linked to a demo and I thought 'jeez, an actual game that makes the most of it!', I really have been impressed. Reading about TruForm, Truform II and their possible alternatives keeps me hoping.

matrox is the only one with real displacement mapping hw support till now. thats sad.
Alright a win for Matrox! :wink:

I love Matrox, but yeah It's sad that alot of their best features aren't being licensed or adopted in one form or another by the others. I wonder if Fragment AA might not improve it's minor glitches if the resources behind the big two were behind devloping it more instead of just 3DLabs and Matrox. But is seems that MSAA is nV and ATI's tool of choice for now. Too bad Surroundview's not popular either. I would've bought a Parhelia if it was the price of a current P750 (even if it only had that somehwat lesser functionality) when the initially came out, but the Parhelia itself just doesn't offer bang for buck if you need raw power now and again.

Speaking of which I can't wait to run those RayTracing demos (NatureSux, Still Sucking Nature, etc) again once I have a new AMD64 with sufficient resources in my hands. Man was that ever humbling with what I've got now/then. :wink:

BTW, are you buying new gear this round or waiting for a little bit more? PCI-EX based rig maybe? You provided me with some of my first "I hadn't thought of that..." info regarding the potential of PCI-EX and resource sharing, so just curious if you're heading down that path.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
this statement of "him" has tons of miss-interpretations and swizzling of different facts, means its simply mostly untrue.

other than that, its completely unrelated to the topic.

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
 
True but english isn't his first language, does make us think though hehe, I just wanted to clear up some of what I said previously was a bit off :).

These are all hypothesies so far, can't really get under the hood without actually being there.
 
Tessalation done through a vertex shader has almost no hit compared to the output and bandwidth savings, there were a few articles done this on the web. Have to find them again, but they are out there. What the Nv40 does give is the ability to have texture lookups in a vertex shader so now displacment and tesselation can be done much faster with alot less overhead.

Let me rephrase that 😛

Trueform is camera dependent adaptive tesselation, LOD for tesselation lol, and this can be hand done with any graphics card dx8 and up through a vertex shader.
 
So that's what you do between posts.

Good to see you were able to take so well to the family business.

At least now we know you have a job, or is it a passion for you and you do it for free?

Either way now I know why you think the solution to everything is a shot to the head.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
Well...I've found that Xeon has quite a bit to say about you and I in the 'others' forum. I guess we can add <b>coward</b> to the other list of thing's he represent's.

<A HREF="http://rmitz.org/AYB3.swf" target="_new">All your base are belong to us.</A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2216718" target="_new"><b>3DMark03</b></A>
 
Gahaha very amuseing post try again I dont beleive you mean it enough.

Xeon

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