DDR came out on video cards way before it came out on motherboards. DDR-II on motherboards is supposed to come out in 2H 2003, yes, but probably earlier for video cards.
The R9500 will probably be a Ti4600 competitor due to its decreased pipelines. But by reducing the number of pipelines the production can be sped up, the number of failed cards can be reduced, and the overall price of it can drop. The R9500 may be able to bring Ti4600 speeds to the mainstream at a low price.
1° of separation between my monopoly and yours. That's business with .NET
The R9500 will probably be a Ti4600 competitor due to its decreased pipelines. But by reducing the number of pipelines the production can be sped up, the number of failed cards can be reduced, and the overall price of it can drop. The R9500 may be able to bring Ti4600 speeds to the mainstream at a low price.
1° of separation between my monopoly and yours. That's business with .NET
it been anouce that it will be ready for use in few month and sure it samsung who else.
There also 450 mghz DDR cas 4 from infineon i think it ready now for use.
The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
There also 450 mghz DDR cas 4 from infineon i think it ready now for use.
The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
I'm speaking here out from what I remember...R9700 is 512 bit right? it uses 256bit memory...right? so when you said R9500 uses 128bit memory then the R9500 is only 256bit just like the GF4...right? and R9700 should beat GF4 ti4600 in all aspects right?
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hartski on 07/29/02 07:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hartski on 07/29/02 07:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Yeah, the R9700 is 512bit core and 256bit DDR RAM. The R9500 <b><i>may</i></b> have a 128bit DDR RAM. It's just a guess. Yes, it would be like the GF4 Ti's. I'd say the R9500 will perform about the same as a Ti4600. The R9700 beats the Ti4600 handily.
:lol: Finally, I get a capitalized title!! WOOT!! :lol:
:lol: Finally, I get a capitalized title!! WOOT!! :lol:
o0oSPuNKiEo0o
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I won't ever buy a ATI because I hate their driver support. Yeah the card looks great, oh.. the driver only comes with 640x480 256 color support only for windows 95. 
OzzieBloke
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Mate, I'd say get back in your time machine and go back a couple of years... you left your brain back there somewhere.
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I plugged my ram into my motherboard, but unplugged it when I smelled cooked mutton.
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I plugged my ram into my motherboard, but unplugged it when I smelled cooked mutton.
what do u mean ATI lacks driver support? ATI has done everything that they can getting all the bugs fixed and improve performance in their driver, infact, they are going 2 put more focus on their unified Catalyst driver from now on, eventually, the ATI driver will be as reliable as Nvidia's.
Spunkie is absolutely correct! ATI drivers and their 'support' is an embarassment to the graphics industry.
Sure...ATI has a phone number, they actually answer the phone, and they can tell you which 15 drivers you need to load, but if something, anything, does not work, your are screwed! ATI will give you a song and dance and be "concerned," but will do NOTHING!
If you care about ATI's "ancient history" (posts from 2 weeks ago!), check out mine titled "Radeon cannot play Dolby DVDs."
You will find plenty of brainwashed ATI shills, who say ATI is the best, who will say...."just wait for new drivers..."
Well, here I am...STILL waiting...
I would not waste my time with a 9700, even it was given to me for free!
Sure...ATI has a phone number, they actually answer the phone, and they can tell you which 15 drivers you need to load, but if something, anything, does not work, your are screwed! ATI will give you a song and dance and be "concerned," but will do NOTHING!
If you care about ATI's "ancient history" (posts from 2 weeks ago!), check out mine titled "Radeon cannot play Dolby DVDs."
You will find plenty of brainwashed ATI shills, who say ATI is the best, who will say...."just wait for new drivers..."
Well, here I am...STILL waiting...
I would not waste my time with a 9700, even it was given to me for free!
I have a Radeon 8500 64MB...my friend has a Radeon 8500 DV...I built my computer and my friend's computer...I *never* had a problem with my R8500 in games or graphic work...I built my friend a $4000 PC theater system with R8500DV 64MB and he plays DVDs and music just fine, even Dolby...I have no problems with 2 ATI cards..you have a problem with yours...maybe it's not the card...do some troubleshooting...ATI still sells their cards even if they have been branded in having bad drivers...so I guess their cards *do work* afterall and it's not all about the drivers...
I understand you are mad coz of the problem you have with *your* ATI card but being under the influence of anger can impare your judgement so take it easy on ATI...and try to take it easy on me if you decide to start a flame...:^]
Catalyst...great idea! they are trying to improve things and they shall succeed...
I understand you are mad coz of the problem you have with *your* ATI card but being under the influence of anger can impare your judgement so take it easy on ATI...and try to take it easy on me if you decide to start a flame...:^]
Catalyst...great idea! they are trying to improve things and they shall succeed...
HolyGrenade
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I'm sure nVidia is around 10 years old. Not 4!
Now, I don't think ATI is an innovative company. Anything that can remotely be called innovative (nPatches) is 1 part features and 99 parts hype.
I would call nVidia innovative because of the GPUs, the memory architectures, things that actually help the industry where others are willing to license them.
Matrox is one company that leads in innovation but trails in performance. With all the bump mapping and now displacement mapping etc. 3D Labs is also joining in with its virtual memory system and high programmability. All of these are features that help the industry. ATI definitely lacks in this department.
And... To all disbelievers, ATI <b><font color=red>DOES</font color=red></b> have bad driver support! Not talking about the customer support, mind you. Some of them can be rather pleasant, even if not helpful.
<b><font color=red>I'm a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up.</font color=red></b>
Now, I don't think ATI is an innovative company. Anything that can remotely be called innovative (nPatches) is 1 part features and 99 parts hype.
I would call nVidia innovative because of the GPUs, the memory architectures, things that actually help the industry where others are willing to license them.
Matrox is one company that leads in innovation but trails in performance. With all the bump mapping and now displacement mapping etc. 3D Labs is also joining in with its virtual memory system and high programmability. All of these are features that help the industry. ATI definitely lacks in this department.
And... To all disbelievers, ATI <b><font color=red>DOES</font color=red></b> have bad driver support! Not talking about the customer support, mind you. Some of them can be rather pleasant, even if not helpful.
<b><font color=red>I'm a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up.</font color=red></b>
o0oSPuNKiEo0o
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"ATI driver will be as reliable as Nvidia's."
That's my point. Every ATI card I've owned is very buggy.
That's my point. Every ATI card I've owned is very buggy.
o0oSPuNKiEo0o
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Here's a second exzample
"The Radeon 7500, meanwhile, produced a host of graphical errors using the current Catalyst drivers (to quote ATi, "Industry's most stable 3D acceleration software"), making measurements impossible."
Read the lastest graphic card review..
http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q3/020730/xabre-09.html
Even our beloved tom sees problems with the drivers they provide.
"The Radeon 7500, meanwhile, produced a host of graphical errors using the current Catalyst drivers (to quote ATi, "Industry's most stable 3D acceleration software"), making measurements impossible."
Read the lastest graphic card review..
http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q3/020730/xabre-09.html
Even our beloved tom sees problems with the drivers they provide.
...maybe it's not the card...do some troubleshooting...
THIS KNOWN PROBLEM IS DOCUMENTED WITHIN ATI's knowledgebase. Apparently, some people don't bother to read previous FACTS before relying on lopsided opinions.
Do some troubleshooting?
In case you missed the previous comment, THIS IS A KNOWN PROBLEM WITH ALL OF ATI'S 7500 AND 8500 series AIWs and is documented in ATI's knowledgebase. Now, what troubleshooting would you suggest? I really do not care that a friend of my next door neighbor's cousins' sister's best friend's uncle has a AIW and everything works just fine. I bought this card strictly for dolby playback (a feature which 95% of Radeon users do not use) and it does not work and ATI knows it does not work and their only solution is: "We have made a problem report and our engineers are working on it, so all you can do is wait for new drivers."
The S/PDIF circuitry of the RADEON card is proprietary to ATI, therefore, only ATI can fix it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ATI's Radeon is the only video card that has a S/PDIF audio output.
Sure, I forget about dolby and just use the plain old stereo (yawn...) out of the sound card. I can also keep the dolby and shut off the TV. But ATI's advertising states "dolby output!"
THIS KNOWN PROBLEM IS DOCUMENTED WITHIN ATI's knowledgebase. Apparently, some people don't bother to read previous FACTS before relying on lopsided opinions.
Do some troubleshooting?
In case you missed the previous comment, THIS IS A KNOWN PROBLEM WITH ALL OF ATI'S 7500 AND 8500 series AIWs and is documented in ATI's knowledgebase. Now, what troubleshooting would you suggest? I really do not care that a friend of my next door neighbor's cousins' sister's best friend's uncle has a AIW and everything works just fine. I bought this card strictly for dolby playback (a feature which 95% of Radeon users do not use) and it does not work and ATI knows it does not work and their only solution is: "We have made a problem report and our engineers are working on it, so all you can do is wait for new drivers."
The S/PDIF circuitry of the RADEON card is proprietary to ATI, therefore, only ATI can fix it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ATI's Radeon is the only video card that has a S/PDIF audio output.
Sure, I forget about dolby and just use the plain old stereo (yawn...) out of the sound card. I can also keep the dolby and shut off the TV. But ATI's advertising states "dolby output!"
nexus_alpha
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ATI is well aware of the problems and trust me they are trying to change and fast. Only a few years ago the nv1 by nvidia was considered and is still is the worst card with the worst drivers and look were they are now. My point yes companies can change ATI has taken the right steps in the past few weeks by changing the reference hardware from the r100 (ancient) to the r300 (modern and IMPORTANTLY DESIGNED BY THE GUYS WHO BROUGHT U THE GAMECUBE AND N64) for their drivers. Catalyst in my opinion was not meant to run properly on the ancient r7500 I mean why bother when older driver versions work just fine with little or no glitches. Lets wait and see the reviews in August.
nVidia has only been around for 4 years, ever since the launch of their Riva 128 chipset. They are engineers and businessmen who know how to run a business well. That's how they claimed so much market share from 3dfx.
1° of separation between my monopoly and yours. That's business with .NET
1° of separation between my monopoly and yours. That's business with .NET
HolyGrenade
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The nv1 was released in the Diamond Edge3D card in 1996. Thats 6 years ago. They must've been working on it at least a couple of years. They only claimed market share 3DFX lost, as in they did not exactly win marketshare. 3DFX got big headed and said only they will make cards based on their chips. That was the issue.
<b><font color=red>I'm a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up.</font color=red></b>
<b><font color=red>I'm a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up.</font color=red></b>
Dark_Archonis
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Yes, if you look at current benchmarks, the 9700 does perform better then the GF4 TI4600. But, NV30 will quickly reclaim the crown. For your convenience, here's some info about the NV30 direct from Nvidia <A HREF="http://developer.nvidia.com" target="_new">http://developer.nvidia.com</A>. If you look at the NV3X papers, you'll find out some info about the NV30. According to Nvidia, the NV30 will be the most important product release they've ever made in the past 10 years. This of course, means that Nvidia has probably been around for about 10 years now. Many sources say that since NV30 will be made on 0.13 process, it will allow Nvidia to clock the card as high as 400mhz. Also, the NV30 probably will use DDR-II, since it's rumoured to have about double the memory bandwith of the NV2X series of cards (somewhere around 20GB/s). And, for all you non-believers of Nvidia, in Nvidia's PDF's and white papers, it states that the NV3X cards will be able to do 1024 instructions per pass. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 9700 can do only 256 instructions per pass. In conclusion, looking at the white papers, the NV3X cards are a completely new generation of cars. FYI, NV30 has about 107 million transistors, about double that of the GF4 ti4600. There are rumours that the NV30 is so radical, it might have a new name (non-Geforce name). BTW, NV30 is first card from Nvidia to use 3dfx tech. Looks like ATI is in for a fierce battle.
Ati cards are still found in many low-level computers and notebooks, but Nvidia is quickly scooping up those markets. Thats really the only reason why ATi is still alive. A few months ago, I read on news.com that ATi was on the the verge of bancruptcy, due to alot of profit loss. Now, ATI is again saved with it's 9700.
Another fact is that Nvidia's drivers are DEFINITELY more reliable and stable than any other video card drivers. Creative's drivers are total rubbish, 3dlabs are average, Matrox's are a disgrace, Ati's are average, and finally getting better, but Nvidia's are exceptional. Sure in the old days (NV1 era), Nvidia's drivers were bad, but Nvidia improved, and during the TNT2 era, Nvidia hired a new driver team (the current one). This current team has alot of vets, and Ati's team simply can't compete with them, even if they try hard. ATI's only chance is to hire new members for their driver team.
For some reason, whenever a company is leading an industry, or has majority popularity (eg. Intel, Nvidia), people (especially on these forums) like to pick on them. People love to cheer for the underdogs like ATI or AMD for the simple fact that they are underdogs. Apart from value, and great prices, ATI and AMD fans don't really have any arguments against Intel or Nvidia (exception: 9700 is currently performance king). Many AMD & ATi fans argue with me saying how bad Nvidia & Intel suck. Funny thing is, when I bring out my arguments, they reply with their own old arguments, and for some strange reason, cannot, or don't want to counter my arguments. I try to be as realistic as possible in my arguments, and I try to use the facts. On these forums, though, many people for some reason can't handle the facts or the truth.
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Tejas - "supposedly" the last P4 revision
[successor to Prescott]
Ati cards are still found in many low-level computers and notebooks, but Nvidia is quickly scooping up those markets. Thats really the only reason why ATi is still alive. A few months ago, I read on news.com that ATi was on the the verge of bancruptcy, due to alot of profit loss. Now, ATI is again saved with it's 9700.
Another fact is that Nvidia's drivers are DEFINITELY more reliable and stable than any other video card drivers. Creative's drivers are total rubbish, 3dlabs are average, Matrox's are a disgrace, Ati's are average, and finally getting better, but Nvidia's are exceptional. Sure in the old days (NV1 era), Nvidia's drivers were bad, but Nvidia improved, and during the TNT2 era, Nvidia hired a new driver team (the current one). This current team has alot of vets, and Ati's team simply can't compete with them, even if they try hard. ATI's only chance is to hire new members for their driver team.
For some reason, whenever a company is leading an industry, or has majority popularity (eg. Intel, Nvidia), people (especially on these forums) like to pick on them. People love to cheer for the underdogs like ATI or AMD for the simple fact that they are underdogs. Apart from value, and great prices, ATI and AMD fans don't really have any arguments against Intel or Nvidia (exception: 9700 is currently performance king). Many AMD & ATi fans argue with me saying how bad Nvidia & Intel suck. Funny thing is, when I bring out my arguments, they reply with their own old arguments, and for some strange reason, cannot, or don't want to counter my arguments. I try to be as realistic as possible in my arguments, and I try to use the facts. On these forums, though, many people for some reason can't handle the facts or the truth.
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Tejas - "supposedly" the last P4 revision
[successor to Prescott]
maybe so, but we won't see NV30 for another 6 months or so. by that time, ATI would've released the upgraded version of 9700 as well as 9500 (both around later this yr), making them selves heard,and when NV30 does come out, the 9700 line will be beaten .then ATI will release R350 or R400, something like that which suppose to outclass the NV30, then nvida will release NV3x....etc. the race will go on until one of the company makes a mistake, ie, releaseing a product that dosn't live up to the hype and expectation (just like the voodoo3 line and Tbred ).
Wasnt that long time ago since i read about nvidia ass kissing but here it goes again.
Before you critisize that ati sucks bla bla drivers stinks(kiss nvidia ass) and all that crap. You should probably know that no computer is another alike (way of speech) Sure it's easy to complain. But have you actually thought of checking other things in your comp except your graphics card? I used to have a hercules gf2 gts. It worked good, last time i used it i had the 23.12 drivers. Then i patched to the new at that time 28.23 and the legendary excellency of nvidia drivers as you nvidia fanboys would say, caused my comp to crash every 15 minutes. I had to reinstall the old drivers to get my comp to work. Same thing can go for your comp and your gfx card. Maybe the later drivers improved and didn't cause the same problem but i don't know cause i sold the gf2 and got a Radeon8500. But have patience. A fix for it will come. but you can't just sit on your ass and wait and expect that a graphic driver update will fix everything.
feels kinda useless talking to you ass kissers. since you wont care and just say how sucky ATI is.
BTW ever read that everytime ATI has came with something nvidia has tried to sabotage it with rumours and other things
Before you critisize that ati sucks bla bla drivers stinks(kiss nvidia ass) and all that crap. You should probably know that no computer is another alike (way of speech) Sure it's easy to complain. But have you actually thought of checking other things in your comp except your graphics card? I used to have a hercules gf2 gts. It worked good, last time i used it i had the 23.12 drivers. Then i patched to the new at that time 28.23 and the legendary excellency of nvidia drivers as you nvidia fanboys would say, caused my comp to crash every 15 minutes. I had to reinstall the old drivers to get my comp to work. Same thing can go for your comp and your gfx card. Maybe the later drivers improved and didn't cause the same problem but i don't know cause i sold the gf2 and got a Radeon8500. But have patience. A fix for it will come. but you can't just sit on your ass and wait and expect that a graphic driver update will fix everything.
feels kinda useless talking to you ass kissers. since you wont care and just say how sucky ATI is.
BTW ever read that everytime ATI has came with something nvidia has tried to sabotage it with rumours and other things
Dark_Archonis
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I know, but all I'm saying is, that if you look at previous ATI releases, the 8500 didn't exactly make a "big splash" in the market. Neither did the 7500. For ATI to seriously compete with Nvidia right now, they have to put in more effort. I'll bet that even the updated 9700 won't be able to beat the NV30, If you compared the current NV30 specs to the 9700. I'm just saying that the NV30 will be a force to be reckoned with, since it the past 3 years, Nvidia has always lived up to the hype with their video cards (not counting Nforce).
Unit01, do you have any links or proof of this "sabotage" and "rumours"? Now, nobody is perfect, and Nvidia certainly isn't. FYI, the 28.23 might have been beta drivers. Not EVERY SINGLE TINY driver release from Nvidia is amazing. Some releases are beta, where Nvidia might be testing something new in the drivers. I'm saying though, the WHQL certified drivers, and the OFFICIAL new driver releases from Nvidia are very solid. Most of the driver releases are solid, except for a few defunct ones, such as 28.23. BTW, Nvidia's drivers cover all cards ranging from TNT2, to GF4. And considering how varied all these cards are, and how different their architechture is, the fact that Nvidia can make a solid driver which runs fine with all of them is quite a feat. I'm running the 21.81 drivers, the first version of the Detonator XP drivers, if I remember correctly. These drivers are rock solid, and I've been running them for about 8 months.
Nvidia even discourages you from downloading their drivers, since they never say if the drivers are beta (which I wish they did), but when the drivers are WHQL certified, then that's a sign they are rock solid and are actually final drivers, not beta. You can't expect Nvidia's beta drivers to be super solid. They release the betas, so people can download them, test them, and report if anything bad happens. Nvidia has a fairly large group of driver testers, and once Nvidia is satisfied by a driver version of thiers, then they go and send it to be cretified. BTW, the "Detonator 5" drivers are rumoured to be released soon. These will support all the new features of the NV30, as well as "supposedly" improve on older drivers for their current cards. Nvidia has yet to confirm these details. If you look on their site right now, the newest drivers are the certified 29.42, while in reality, the newest drivers are 30.82, although you don't see them on the site. The reason is, the 30.82 are currently being beta tested, and they've been released, but you have to hunt around for them, since they're beta. I guess Nvidia simply decided that the 29.42 are good enough for now, or simply that the 30.82 are early beta, and have a few problems.
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Tejas - "supposedly" the last P4 revision
[successor to Prescott]
Unit01, do you have any links or proof of this "sabotage" and "rumours"? Now, nobody is perfect, and Nvidia certainly isn't. FYI, the 28.23 might have been beta drivers. Not EVERY SINGLE TINY driver release from Nvidia is amazing. Some releases are beta, where Nvidia might be testing something new in the drivers. I'm saying though, the WHQL certified drivers, and the OFFICIAL new driver releases from Nvidia are very solid. Most of the driver releases are solid, except for a few defunct ones, such as 28.23. BTW, Nvidia's drivers cover all cards ranging from TNT2, to GF4. And considering how varied all these cards are, and how different their architechture is, the fact that Nvidia can make a solid driver which runs fine with all of them is quite a feat. I'm running the 21.81 drivers, the first version of the Detonator XP drivers, if I remember correctly. These drivers are rock solid, and I've been running them for about 8 months.
Nvidia even discourages you from downloading their drivers, since they never say if the drivers are beta (which I wish they did), but when the drivers are WHQL certified, then that's a sign they are rock solid and are actually final drivers, not beta. You can't expect Nvidia's beta drivers to be super solid. They release the betas, so people can download them, test them, and report if anything bad happens. Nvidia has a fairly large group of driver testers, and once Nvidia is satisfied by a driver version of thiers, then they go and send it to be cretified. BTW, the "Detonator 5" drivers are rumoured to be released soon. These will support all the new features of the NV30, as well as "supposedly" improve on older drivers for their current cards. Nvidia has yet to confirm these details. If you look on their site right now, the newest drivers are the certified 29.42, while in reality, the newest drivers are 30.82, although you don't see them on the site. The reason is, the 30.82 are currently being beta tested, and they've been released, but you have to hunt around for them, since they're beta. I guess Nvidia simply decided that the 29.42 are good enough for now, or simply that the 30.82 are early beta, and have a few problems.
- - - - -
Tejas - "supposedly" the last P4 revision
[successor to Prescott]
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