Barbed Wire Project: Gangrel Deck

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Preston wrote:
> Bah, Blood Doll is a crutch I tell you. Once they succor from her
dark
> teat they will never learn to fend for their own pool. Thereafter it
> will be 6 in every deck. A curse I say!

Well, then you should be fine with giving these away since you have no
need for such a crutch.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

No, I could quite easily give Blood Dolls away. I have roughly 8 decks
in various states of development right now and they use a combined
total of 4 blood dolls- so I just don't use the card much. But, in this
deck, it seems like STI is a better because it has a few master phase
actions to spare and its not draining blood off of the minion. Sure,
one could take an Animalism Weenie and turn him into a perpetual hunter
with a blood doll on him, but then he's not bleeding.

 

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On 10 May 2005 09:03:07 -0700, Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Daneel,
>
> Thanks for your feedback. I am curious as to why you feel that I
> shouldn't give decks away. As someone doing regular demos, White Wolf
> is having me do just that. And, it works! People go, "I don't know that
> game, but I guess I learn since you are giving this to me for free." It
> turns people who don't know anything about the game into people who
> have at least played.

Could be. Come to think of it, I wasn't really against giving out decks;
I just felt like lending decks based on good commons might do more for
the players. I imagine having these "noobie" decks around each gaming
night, so when someone wants to play, they can, and get a simple but
effective deck to do so with.

> Then the next hurdle is taking these players who have completed their
> demo and getting them ready to where they are feeling comfortable with
> the game and the group. Typically if they develop a comfort level, then
> they will make a financial commitment if they have some disposable
> income. The idea of these decks is that they can play them and do OK at
> a ring game (which can't be said for the demo decks) and allow
> themselves to get more exposed to the game.

This is what I think could be done better. Nothing fancy, just a reliable
distribution of some solid commons (and since you don't really have an
abundance of those, you might consider building these decks and only
lending them to the new players).

> Lastly, from a more selfish point of view, I don't always give these
> away: new players really seem to appreciate a decently tuned deck
> because they are having problems making one themselves. I can typically
> trade one of these decks away for a rare or two that they weren't
> really using and its a win-win. I transform commons into rares, and
> they get more decks they can play and enjoy.

I can see where this is coming from (I'm drowning in commons, especially
the useless ones that don't really go into more than one or two decks).
That said, a nice bonfire might solve many issues (or just hand out
these packs'o'commons to noobies to give them some filler cards). A
Short Term Investment may not be a winner card, but it works just fine
as a filler if you are short a Master or two. Yet I wouldn't really
include them in a serious precon-type deck.

Especially since Blood Doll is THE CARD for noobies. Blood Doll is the
best blood management card for players who don't know what they're
doing. Noobies are just like that: they don't really know what they are
doing. They don't really have enough experience to know how to play
their decks, how to distinguish between the stages of a game, etc. For
them Blood Doll is the best card, as it allows them some leeway in
their play.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Derek Ray wrote:

(snip snip snip)

> And they can't learn the bleed deck until they play IT, too. And one
> good thing about bleed decks; it introduces people to the basics of
> stealth, intercept, and tactics quite readily, while still keeping
them
> competitive. Handing a combat deck to a new player is like giving a
> Swiss Army Knife to a 4-year old and saying "Peel me some potatoes,
and
> then open this wine."

*drops two cents on the table*

I agree, and for the same reason I keep around a "Sneak-Bleed 101" to
teach a newbie with. One other good thing comes from keeping the deck
competitive - with a Malk bleed deck, for instance, there is a chance
the new player will actually gain a VP or even win his first game! And
in my experience, that is one of the best ways to retain a new player -
lots of people dislike the idea of losing more than they win.

Dorrinal Blackmantle
Chronicler of Clan Tremere

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

There will be 6 other decks for each clan. The Gangrel and not bleed
masters, and they have to learn it at some point.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

OK, we held the test today. I played Barbed Wire Gangrel, Jon, another
experienced player played Dual Form (and bitched incesantly). Jessica,
a newbie who typically plays a Malk Sneak & Bleed I made for her, was
Jon's predator and he begged her not to play it so he could "have a
chance." Instead she played a Venture deck that I also made for her.
Jon's prey was Jeff, an experienced player who played a deck that just
failed completely to do whatever it was supposed to do: Jeff hardly did
little but block and bleed for one the whole game. Jeff's prey was
playing a !Venture vote deck that Jeff ahd assembeled and my predator
(yes, it was a 6 player game) was playing a Lasombra combat deck that
Jeff has also made. As the game developed, my predator played a
Parthenon and a Zillah's Valley first turn, followed by a Zillah's
Valley second turn and got out to fairly hefty Lasombra.

I got out Anastasia Grey on my second turn. I took a 2 bleed from my
predator because of the massive combat nature of the deck and the size
of the minion. I bleed with Anastasia for 1 and put out my second
Camille Dev. Camille did block the Lassombra's bleed this time, and we
sent each other to torpor (he with entombment, me with claws). He then
rescued his Lasombra. On my turn, Camille Rapid Healed herself back
into play and I bleed for two with my two other vamps.

Then, the !Venture ousted my predator with some vote/bleed
combinations. It was down to 5 players and pretty much off to the
races. I ambushed a !Ventrue and torpored him, but then I had to decide
whether to diabilerize him and lose a minion or let him be. I let him
be, which was probably a mistake.

The !Ventrue had vote lock on his next turn after he rescued himself
and transferred up another poltiical voter. Never facing a strong
predator was allowed the !Ventrue to come down on me pretty hard. Jon
with Dual Form did manage to get an out with some Stanisolva stealth
bleeds, with Jeff's deck having done little the whole game.

>From there it was problematic, because Dual Form did not have enough
umph to put pressure on my predator and he rained down a series of
KRC/Con Agg and I was ousted soon after- 1 turn away from ousting my
own prey myself from my army of rats and bleed actions.

They played another turn before conceeding to the !Ventrue.

We then broke the 6 player group into two three player groups. I again
played Barbed Wire Gangrel, Jeff against played his Ravnos deck as my
predator, and Jesse again played the Lasombra combat deck as my prey. I
swept the three of them- the Lasombra combat deck was no match for
Barbed Wire!

>From there, Jesse and Jeff both agreed that I should relay to all the
naysawers in this group that Barbed Wire Gangrel is a fine deck and to
stop bagging on it. From my playtest though I think I am going to add
two more Haven Uncovereds to the final version.

 

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No, he had "Arms of the Abyss" he just didn't have it right then.

 

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Preston wrote:
|>From there, Jesse and Jeff both agreed that I should relay to all the
| naysawers in this group that Barbed Wire Gangrel is a fine deck and to
| stop bagging on it. From my playtest though I think I am going to add
| two more Haven Uncovereds to the final version.

You play with fish.

Nuff said.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Here's the revised deck.

Gangrel deck.

Crypt
Pick One of Wynn/Basillia/Angus
Pick 4 of Camille Devereux, Quinton McDonnell, Zack North, Badger,
Guitar St. Claire,
Gunther - Beast Lord
Bear Paw
Ricki Van Demsy
Anastasia Grey
Roman Alexander
Pick Two of: Giuliano Vincenzi, Vilam Andor, Navar McClaren


Masters 11
4xAnimalism
3xShort Term Investment
4xHaven Uncovered

Actions 10
Arson
Rapid Healing
2xRestoration
3xBum's Rush/Ambush/Harass
3xArmy of Rats

Action Modifiers 2
2xEarth Control

Combat 25
Canine Hoard
5xAid From Bats
5x(A mix of Gleam of the Red Eyes and Form of the Ghost)
5x(A mix of Claws of the Dead and Wolf Claws)
3xDrawing Out the Beast
4xSkin of Rock
2xSkin of Steel

Reaction 8
4xCat's Guidance
4xRat's Warnings

Equipment 5
2xLabtop Computers
3xWolf Companion

 

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Derek Ray wrote:
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>
> Preston wrote:
> |>From there, Jesse and Jeff both agreed that I should relay to all the
> | naysawers in this group that Barbed Wire Gangrel is a fine deck and to
> | stop bagging on it. From my playtest though I think I am going to add
> | two more Haven Uncovereds to the final version.
>
> You play with fish.
>
> Nuff said.
>
> - --
> Derek

--Snip--

To reiterate what I think most of the people who replied to this post said.

There is nothing really wrong with the deck in general. Most people just
didn't think it would be the best deck for a brand spanking newbie to
begin with.

And i'll just add....a Lasombra deck with no 'Arms of the Abyss', say it
ain't so!

Cheers

James

 

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James Scott wrote:
| To reiterate what I think most of the people who replied to this post
said.
|
| There is nothing really wrong with the deck in general. Most people just
| didn't think it would be the best deck for a brand spanking newbie to
| begin with.

Yeah, I probably should clarify it. While I did intend the post to be
rude, I also would like it to be a bit informational.

| And i'll just add....a Lasombra deck with no 'Arms of the Abyss', say it
| ain't so!

That's #1 on my list of "WTF?" when reading that last post. A Lasombra
deck that's going to be running Entombment needs to be packing at least
1x Arms of the Abyss for every Entombment it intends to play, and then
1x more for every time it thinks the opposing minion will dodge, S:CE,
or otherwise make the additional strike worthless unless it's "hands".
No deck can afford to routinely be playing Entombment for 2 and blowing
1+ on its opponents' hand strikes; and while some Lasombra do come with
Fortitude, that's still a harder way to go. A decently built Entombment
deck should chew up the listed eye-poke Gangrel deck (no Scorpion
Sting), and all the Gangrel should be Grave Robbed almost immediately
for having the temerity to NOT pack a means to foil "dodge".

#2 on the list was that the Ventrue predator, with both Majesty and Skin
of Steel available, took so long to oust the effectively defenseless
Gangrel prey.

#3 was the !Ventrue prey who wasn't stuffed to the gills with Fortitude
and capable of ignoring his predator's occasional Rush actions.
!Ventrue still don't have effective stealth unless you play the
Quentin/Gustav brigade, so an !Ventrue deckbuilder needs to assume that
regular combat will be a part of each game, and plan accordingly. A
predator who's nice enough to Rush you and cycle your defense is all in
a day's work.

#4 was that Army of Rats ever did any damage at all. Here's my
impression of how a turn should look, played reasonably well on both parts:

BW Minion #1: I put the Army of Rats in play.
BW Minion #2: I bleed for 1.
BW Minion #3: I stay untapped to block hostile actions.
- -- turn passes --
Prey Minion #1: I remove the Army of Rats.
BW Minion #3: I block. (fight ensues, prey #1 goes to torpor MAYBE)
Prey Minion #2: I remove the Army of Rats.
BW Meth: Damn. I'm tapped out. I don't block.
Prey Minion #3: I rescue Minion #1.
BW Meth: Rat's Warning no good. I don't block.

So much for Army of Rats. If you're going to rely on it for offense,
you gotta be able to untap and defend it from your prey, while still
surviving your predator. The posted deck had no untap that wasn't
predator-oriented; even if you will lose to the deck in combat, the Army
will go away and you can rescue your guys. Easy.

[no longer addressed to James from here forward]

Perhaps I sound rude -- but quite simply, Preston, you've got the
blinders on full and you're completely ignoring almost everything
everybody is saying to you. Adding a snide "ha, ha, i was right" post
on top of it? None of us are impressed. Maybe the deck can win in your
group, but what is going to happen when someone plays a REAL deck? I
already noticed in your post that someone had to beg for no stealth
bleed to be played -- it looks like your group is quite capable of
differentiating between "real" decks and "funsie" decks. Barbed Wire is
firmly in the "funsie" category, I'm afraid, and all our advice is
geared towards helping you and your group AVOID being trapped in
"funsie" land forever, where there has to be an implicit social contract
to NOT try to win for a game to occur. That's no good long-term; the
social pressure eventually destroys playgroups or makes the good players
leave -- and those good players are the ones who are most likely to be
most active, as well.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here

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On Mon, 16 May 2005 12:54:06 -0400, Derek Ray <lorimer@yahoo.com> wrote:

> #4 was that Army of Rats ever did any damage at all. Here's my
> impression of how a turn should look, played reasonably well on both
> parts:

[snip]

> Prey Minion #1: I remove the Army of Rats.

How about this one:

Ventrue Antitribu Minion #1: Wow, my predator has an army of rats! Ouch!
What to do? I know. Bleed for six.

> Perhaps I sound rude -- but quite simply, Preston, you've got the
> blinders on full and you're completely ignoring almost everything
> everybody is saying to you. Adding a snide "ha, ha, i was right" post
> on top of it? None of us are impressed.

Just left it in because it is easy to see it being said to you (instead
of by you). Splinter, beam.

> Barbed Wire is
> firmly in the "funsie" category, I'm afraid, and all our advice is
> geared towards helping you and your group AVOID being trapped in
> "funsie" land forever, where there has to be an implicit social contract
> to NOT try to win for a game to occur. That's no good long-term; the
> social pressure eventually destroys playgroups or makes the good players
> leave -- and those good players are the ones who are most likely to be
> most active, as well.

That's bullshit for two reasons. On the one hand, doing *something* is
often better than doing nothing at all. Condemning someone for handing
out "funsie" decks to newbies for free (or almost free) is extreme
short-sightedness; he is, at least, doing *something*.

On the other, the natural evolution of a "funsie land" playgroup is
towards "real" decks. Been there, done that, even have some T-shirts.
When I started playing we had a number of unwritten house rules that
are probably rather laughable from a tournament player POV. Really,
it didn't matter, we were playing in a secluded group and we didn't
really have the cards to play big league anyway. When our decks started
to grow stronger, the limits eroded because of necessity.

Truth is, the only viable strategy for a player with few cards is Stealth
Bleed. You generally need more cards to vote, and especially to combat
or wall. Therefor in a beginner group sneak bleed is feared. As soon as
people have more cards, it stops being a problem.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Made some minor changes.

Gangrel deck.

Crypt
Pick One of Wynn/Basillia/Angus
Pick 4 of Camille Devereux, Quinton McDonnell, Zack North, Badger,
Guitar St. Claire,
Gunther - Beast Lord
Bear Paw
Ricki Van Demsy
Anastasia Grey
Roman Alexander
Pick Two of: Giuliano Vincenzi, Vilam Andor, Navar McClaren

Masters 10
Fortitude
3xAnimalism
3xShort Term Investment
3xHaven Uncovered

Actions 12
Arson
Rapid Healing
3xRestoration
4xBum's Rush/Ambush/Harass
3xArmy of Rats

Action Modifiers 2
2xEarth Control

Combat 23
Canine Hoard
5xAid From Bats
3x(A mix of Gleam of the Red Eyes and Form of the Ghost)
5x(A mix of Claws of the Dead and Wolf Claws)
3xDrawing Out the Beast
2xSkin of Rock
2xSkin of Steel
Indominability
Unflinching Persistance

Reaction 8
4xCat's Guidance
4xRat's Warnings

Equipment/Retainers 5
Raven Spy
2xLabtop Computers
2xWolf Companion

Cheers,
Preston

 

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great. I love the idea. I've created similar decks here for my demo
purposes in columbus ohio, but never handed any out. I should follow up
on demoing sometime real soon, but other things have happened.

However, I've placed other restrictions on myself, which makes it
better for noobs to jump into the game.

1.) don't restrict yourself to mono clan
2.) no body bigger than 7 in the crypt
3.) 50 card deck, 10 card crypt (makes easier for me to afford to give
out cards, and forces them into buying SOMEthing if they want to
'legally' play).
4.) group 2-3-4 vampires only. No Group 1, and avoid G2 whenever
possible.
If you hand them a deck with g1 gangrel, how the HELL are they going to
buy boosters to suppliment their decks? They can't!

anyhow. Good luck to you, and may you strongly consider point 1 and 2
above.