Battle Of The Boutique Behemoths: iBuyPower Vs. Maingear PC

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[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Who buys a $4k system to game at 1920? The 2560 results are there.[/citation]
I have to say it makes little sense to see 100+fps in a benchmark. Though it's a good comparison to our older systems which often can only play back such games at 1024x768 resolutions.

The sweet spot for benchmarks is any benchmark that would measure from:
- 20-25 fps avg (as in unplayable, or barely playable for games with pretty consistent fps like boxing games)
- 25-30 fps avg (as in playable but with some hiccups in games with variable framerates depending on the environment the graphics card is simulating; eg: on a plain, in a forest, with lots of explosions going on, or inside a corridor, on places with low moving items and light)
- 30-50 fps avg (enough graphics power to play most of games fluid).

You need a minimum fps of 20 in order for a game to have a fluid framerate. Anything above isn't viewable with the human eye anyways; and is lost in heat. Anything below 20fps is displaying in a laggy system, hiccups, or worst case (below 5fps) looks like a slideshow of pictures, and is totally unplayable.

So avg framerates of more than 35~45 are only good for reference to older systems. 25 extra fps really won't make a squad difference when you're running a game at 120fps anyways!
I think what matters most is is a game playable at certain quality settings and resolution...

Any result above avg 45fps, or min 25 fps should lead in a 'yes'.

It's not like the gaming industry is making endless games that will tax hardware. Many games that are made today are graphically well below the point of taxing a modern graphics card. So in essence only a few of the top games @ max res should be tested, to see if when I buy the card, I'd be able to play that game fluidly or not.
 
Can you guys test the CPU temperatures for idle/load next time? I'd like to see how effective each builders cooling solutions are.
 
[citation][nom]ProDigit80[/nom]You need a minimum fps of 20 in order for a game to have a fluid framerate. Anything above isn't viewable with the human eye anyways; and is lost in heat. [/citation]
No, no it isn't. It's been proven that an object in a single frame at 220fps can be identified. Our eyes don't have framerates, that isn't how we see, stop trying to pretend like you know things you very obviously don't.

Imagine yourself in a very dark room. You have been there for hours and it's totally black. Now light flashes right in front of you. Let's say as bright as the sun. Would you see it, when it's only 1/25th of a second? You surely would. 1/100th of a second? Yes. 1/200th of a second? Yes. Tests with Air force pilots have shown, that they could identify the plane on a flashed picture that was flashed only for 1/220th of a second.

That is identifying. So it's pretty safe to say, that recognizing, that SOME light was there is possible with 1/300th of a second. Now if you take into consideration, that you have two eyes with different angles and different areas of sensitivity (you probably know, that you see TV flickering best, when you don't look directly into the TV screen, but with the sides of your eyes) and you can move/rotate/shake your head and your eyes to a different position, you probably needed flashes as short as 1/500th of second to make sure, nobody sees them in any case.

Now, what happens if I flashed you 1/500th of a second once in a second for 365 days directly into your eye? Would you feel something strange? Would it feel different than without it? Would you notice that something is wrong?
Click to expand...
http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
 
i think a nice x4 955 be with some lower latency ddr3 1600, 3 4890's, and a nice 60gb vertex ssd HD, a super fast add in Network Card with a Good XFi soundcard added in would take load off the cpu and you could go with a high end air cooled HSF for adequate cooling for max overclocks and basically take these systems on handily in gaming.

i cant believe they are sporting onboard components. isnt this a tuner no-no?

and thier are about 20 better cases off the top of my head for this exact setup.

with 2-3 high end air cooled gpu's i would select the tagan diablo. hands down, with an added fan or two on the top and bottom to maximize positive case pressure to let those stock gpu coolers go to work properly.

i would also go with a different cpu cooler, even a better thoughtout watercooled setup would have been nice for the money if not better parts or a super kickass aircooled unit. . . .

however as system builders they may have other reasons/rules or interests for using some of the other parts they did, like sponsors or who knows what, everyone has a boss.
 
[citation][nom]brisingamen[/nom]i cant believe they are sporting onboard components. isnt this a tuner no-no?[/citation]

We could argue about (better than expected) onboard audio and available (worse than expected) audio cards, but I really can't see the point in using a PCIe network card with the same controller as these have onboard when you can just use the one that's onboard.
 
[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]We could argue about (better than expected) onboard audio and available (worse than expected) audio cards, but I really can't see the point in using a PCIe network card with the same controller as these have onboard when you can just use the one that's onboard.[/citation]

I'm using onboard sound on my p35 board, but I'm actually using a 1Gbit intel MT adapter for networking. In theory it should be slower than the onboard one, but it actually appears to be faster.
 
i bet thier are many variables that could be accredited for the pilots in 1/220th of a second telling you they saw something "a change or variation period", vs weather or not they actually knew what they saw until after verifying the change or knowing a change is comming ahead of time and or knowing its going to be a wrecked plane are extremely large in this case. especially when you consider a constantly changing environment at 220fps vs a still environment with one change. the variables of that test are really not comparable.

im not a computer scientist but i am a film student at the university of windsor and an avid gamer since nintendo and built pcs of the voodoo era until now, and FPS has always intrigued me and its something ive played with and been obsessed with for a long time. an regardless weather or not your hardware can do 30fps or 300fps, doesnt matter if it isnt working in sync with your method of projection.

consider this some high definition movies at 120hz still insert 60 black frames into the additional 60 frames just to smooth the transition and smearing in between images, try telling someone who just spent 5grand on a high definition home theatre system that half the movie they just watched was of nothing, pure blackness!!!!

i would say even pure 120hz at 120fps with 120 actual frames is really encroaching on our coherent visual limits if not surpassing them, which brings me to my next points,

i would take a sync'ed 45fps with no dipping over 50-150fps fluctuating and "tearing" it up on a monitor or tv trying to do any refresh rate, any day or night, time zone or parallel universe.

avg frame rate and minimum frame rates are not stressed nearly enough in game benchmarks, at each given resolution if the frames are not syncronized properly and the system is able to run that as a consistent minimum then any game on any system is not running optimally,

i feel this sweetspot is something that should be highlighted and applauded more often and included on each game benchmark because in my eyes its the bottom line. and each percent of dippage below this pose exponential penalty in scoring.

i dont think peolpe shed enough light on the overhead waste and bottom out aspects of hardware, regarding exessive un-usable fps, i mean unless you have a method of projection that does 300hz to push those 300fps acuratly you will never see them, i swear it, they will get lost at the end of your cable before they get shot of as light pulses. anyway. . . . when going for the most fluid and smooth gameplay; FLUCTUATION is whats been giving everyone the bone all these years, not 40fps vs 100fps.

the reason im such an advocate in this topic is because i not only personally prefer this smooth sweetspot but i personally know some people who get vertigo or motion sickness if a game isnt smoothly syncronized, lag and stuttering gives some people head aches, and not just oh your a wuss, this or that its like after 15 minites of gaming you have to run to the bathroom and throw up because the background is shifting around and the game stuttering.

yes enough unstable 3d environments, with visual tearing, lag, and stuttering can make some people sick to thier stomach!

my mother and father and aunt along with other cousins are gamers and have been for a long time, but some people in my family can only play certain games some 3d and some 2d because of this reason,

this can partly be due to the programmers and the game engine itself regarding unstable 3d environments, but i think this is a very big issue in general that isnt really talked about that alienates some people all toghether from being gamers at all and helping the industry and the following hobby that so many of us love.

hardware and software settings really need to get going in terms of making this start to work for the pc instead of against it, the flexibility and customizing of a pc have been what has drawn me to it for so many years, but its also what has alienated it from others, hopefully we can get more light shed on these subjects in the future, i think programmers and developers industry wide might want to take another look at this avenue in terms of making that sweetspots accessibility easier for not so educated end users.


 
The Brain doesn't have a FPS limit, Sure once you hit a certain FPS it wont make a difference, But the difference between 24 fps and 30 is pretty big, the difference between 30 and 40 is big, 40 50 is big, 60 120 is quite noticeable.

Your eyes will also have faster reaction rates to different colors and brightness's and just because you cannot respond instantly to a frame on the screen doesn't mean giving your brain more information will help it better understand what's going on. It would probably harder to see a black dot fly across the screen then a white dot. Otho the Airforce test is flawed because most of what they see is retained on the retina.

Your eyes have a 20-40 ms delay from the signal hitting the eye to it being transmitted to the visual cortex, But that doesn't mean you wouldn't notice a 40 ms pixel delay on the monitor, or a 40ms mouse delay or a 40 ms signal input delay.

Lets look at it this way, say something flys past me in a game If I have 24 fps and it only is on the screen for 2 seconds. Its going to be hard for my brain to figure out what it was and where it went. However if I have 120 FPS its on for 10 frames and I have a lot more data to use. The brain can then better guess how far the object is going to move in how much time and whether its important or not. Remember the blur you see in real life is actually ADDED by our brains to help keep data at a minimum so we don't get overloaded and can react to a situation faster.

The brain / eyes are a tool to gather information, They try not to bother you with missing information. Have you ever noticed the blind spot in your eyes, of course not. But you DO have one, look it up. If you never heard of it you probably don't even know about it. Our brain is going to try to make the best determination of the situation with the information it has and not worry about the information it doesn't have. That's why a lot of visually impaired people don't have know they are until they take a test. Just because you don't notice its lacking doesn't mean you won't notice when you have more. ( if you take the time to get good enough to be able to use it)
 
[citation][nom]Tindytim[/nom]I'm not saying it's a good case, but I like the more utilitarian aesthetic. To many cases these days remind me of the shoes children would wear. Lots of chaotic designs, clear plastic, and bright lights.[/citation]

Which is why I built in the P180 when I replaced my rig a couple years back. That, and it was _supposed_ to be quiet. It's only just OK. The PSU-on-the-bottom makes cable routing bad, plus the fact that there's a sort of hatch that you pass the PSU cables through that makes it a giant pain in the butt. Things are more cramped than they need to be, too.

The 'plastic spoiler' on the back of the case hides/protects a top-mounted case fan that you wouldn't otherwise have with the PSU mounted at the top. Is it necessary? Yes. Could it have been done better? Definitely!

There's good in it, too, though. The door that folds flat against the side of the case when opened is fantastic. HDD cages are fairly nice. Sides go back on quite easily.

All in all, though, it wasn't worth what I paid. (I bought it when it was the brand-new hotness)
 
I would also love to see some cpu temperatures, the LCLC cooler and CoolIT cooler are exactly the 2 I have been considering to replace my TRUE, but I have found NO good reviews for these with Core i7, and guess what, you all failed miserably at mentioning the cpu temps as well. considerable let down.
 
Why are the cases so ugly? Why can't they use like ANTEC cases or something? But those cases do not look good at all no offense.
 
for the money the coolmaster is alright, has a nice gothic look like the ambassador bridge i live beside, and if it was painted black inside would be a decent option. nothing really wrong with it though.

but i must disagree on the silverstone tj707 is like a boat or server, kind of reminds me of my old penguin case i hated, amazing build quality, good watercooling layout, but looks bland and its huge!

so tired of unecessarily huge cases. my next rig is a mini box like in THG's last article, no need for huge pc's for high end performance anymore!
 
[citation][nom]obarthelemy[/nom]The "bang for the buck" comparison with much cheaper configs is missing... or did your advertisers object to it ?[/citation]

Comparison of similarly-priced systems, iBuyPower offers better hardware for the money but Maingear offers higher build quality. You don't see either company advertising here do you? So much for conspiracy theories.
 
iBuyPower offers a 3 year warranty but they have HORRIBLE support. They will try everything they can to not have to honor any warranty requests. My girlfriend had a laptop from them where the screen would lose connection randomly, pressing on the back would fix it. When trying to get it replaced they claimed it was caused by "overuse" and it is not their problem to fix. I eventually opened it up and replaced the tape holding the screen wires, it was pulling the connection out due to tension. I would not recommend buying from them.
 
[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Comparison of similarly-priced systems, iBuyPower offers better hardware for the money but Maingear offers higher build quality. You don't see either company advertising here do you? So much for conspiracy theories.[/citation]
Would be silly for them to advertise here! Nobody here's going to buy a premium system anyway. We build them ourselves. But we still like to read about them.
 
I would love to buy Tom's PC's if you guys ever sell. I mean how perfect would that be, u know hardware well and u get everything right when selling to consumers (assuming ur supply hardware chain and service doesnt screw up....that's a big assumption)
 
[citation][nom]nikrusty[/nom]I would love to buy Tom's PC's if you guys ever sell. I mean how perfect would that be, u know hardware well and u get everything right when selling to consumers (assuming ur supply hardware chain and service doesnt screw up....that's a big assumption)[/citation]

How about getting a Tom's Hardware PC free? That's got to be better than paying for it!
 
[citation][nom]nikrusty[/nom]I would love to buy Tom's PC's if you guys ever sell. I mean how perfect would that be, u know hardware well and u get everything right when selling to consumers (assuming ur supply hardware chain and service doesnt screw up....that's a big assumption)[/citation]
As a slightly less crashman like reply, I'd like to point out that toms hardware is a review site. If they'd start competing with the companies they feature, reviews would be questioned more frequently, and ultimately they'd be reduced to a voodoo pc like company.
 
[citation][nom]neiroatopelcc[/nom]As a slightly less crashman like reply, I'd like to point out that toms hardware is a review site. If they'd start competing with the companies they feature, reviews would be questioned more frequently, and ultimately they'd be reduced to a voodoo pc like company.[/citation]

How about if the site give only one PC away? Or two? Or maybe three? Certainly three systems wouldn't be enough to jeapardize those relationships!!!
 
[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]How about if the site give only one PC away? Or two? Or maybe three? Certainly three systems wouldn't be enough to jeapardize those relationships!!![/citation]
You mean like, Giving away your SBM computers every now and then in some sort contest (as an example)?
 
I noticed both cases have bottom set power supply and top set closed system water/TC coolers. I want one of those Coolit systems for my i7 but it looks like it might not work unless you have the room for it on a bottom set power supply case. Thats a bummer plus according to what I read the coolit system is custom so not available for purchase? I guess neither one of those cooling manufacturers are getting my money
 
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