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E-DarkHorse said:
I've been coming to Tom's website for insight on COTs parts testing and micro-computer build combinations since it was pretty much just Tom and his motorcycle in the nascent '90s.

The information provided here has always been excellent. So, before I express my present questions, I want to say this site has helped keep me informed of the state of quality of commodity parts and builds, even as my professional career moved away from builds and into enterprise architecture. It's been a go-to source of information for decades among professional IS/IT people. So, thank you, Tom; we are grateful. And thank you whomever else has kept it going all these years.

I just ordered parts for a modified $4K build, from the May 30, 2024 article. I changed a few parts. And, before I open the parts and seal a potentially ugly fate, I thought I would bring my thoughts here. It seems I was hasty. There were some changes:
1) Replaced the Ryzen 9 7900X3D CPU with a 7950X3D (got the 360mm Lian-Li Galahad II Trinity 360mm AIO).
2) Replaced the nVid 4090 with an XFX Spdstr MERC310 RX 7900XTX.
Q1: I think these two will function very well together BUT I wonder if -from a technical perspective- a different MoBo would deliver better performance with this cpu/gpu combination.
3) I ordered the Fractal Design Define XL case, not the North XL. Shouldn't be an issue.
4) I ordered the Corsair RM 1000x in place of the 1000e.
5) These changes brought it to ~$3K vs, $4K, mostly due to the exchange of graphics cards. I'm not a gamer so, this suits my needs.

All suggestions are welcome. Thank you.

A concern:
A) The RAM link took me to an amazon page for G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series (Intel XMP 3.0), which I didn't notice and placed it with my order. Oof.
I'll reorder, but maybe someone can fix this link, please? Thank you.
Click to expand...
Hey @E-DarkHorse,

I'll chime in with some thoughts. First, swapping CPUs basically shouldn't matter, as they're both socket AM5 and have similar requirements (170W TDP). Downgrading to a 7900 XTX should also be fine and will cost a lot less. Swapping the case is of course fine (assuming similar or larger size on the new case), and the same should be true of the PSU.

Motherboards generally don't matter too much as far as performance goes, unless there's a specific bug or if one of the boards doesn't properly support XMP (EXPO) for a given memory kit. I would personally be hesitant to buy a second tier motherboard (meaning, B650 chipset instead of X670/X670E) just because there are often features that get cut. As an example, I have seen boards where you don't get PCIe 5.0 support on the primary M.2 slot, just because it was cheaper that way.

You say at the end that you're not a gamer, so that makes me wonder what exactly you're planning on doing with this build. There are apps that will work better on AMD GPUs (certain professional apps), and the extra VRAM might help in a few specific scenarios. But if you're looking at AMD for AI workloads — unless you're specifically wanting to learn to do AI on AMD's hardware — I would strongly recommend Nvidia GPUs. If you're not doing anything super demanding, graphically speaking, I'm not sure why you'd even need the 7900 XTX. A lot of video processing should be just as fast on a 7900 XT or 7900 GRE, and probably as far down as 7700 XT. So that could potentially save several more hundred dollars.

For the memory buy links, unfortunately our pricing engine can screw up and link seemingly similar RAM kits (and other parts) based on whatever logic the programmers use. Or perhaps someone just screwed up and linked to a non-EXPO kit. XMP should work but may not perform optimally. (TBH, most RAM kits beyond a certain point are mostly meaningless.) But I've put in a different kit (G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo) that should be better suited for an AM5 PC now.

Hope that helps!
 
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E-DarkHorse said:
I've been coming to Tom's website for insight on COTs parts testing and micro-computer build combinations since it was pretty much just Tom and his motorcycle in the nascent '90s.

The information provided here has always been excellent. So, before I express my present questions, I want to say this site has helped keep me informed of the state of quality of commodity parts and builds, even as my professional career moved away from builds and into enterprise architecture. It's been a go-to source of information for decades among professional IS/IT people. So, thank you, Tom; we are grateful. And thank you whomever else has kept it going all these years.

I just ordered parts for a modified $4K build, from the May 30, 2024 article. I changed a few parts. And, before I open the parts and seal a potentially ugly fate, I thought I would bring my thoughts here. It seems I was hasty. There were some changes:
1) Replaced the Ryzen 9 7900X3D CPU with a 7950X3D (got the 360mm Lian-Li Galahad II Trinity 360mm AIO).
2) Replaced the nVid 4090 with an XFX Spdstr MERC310 RX 7900XTX.
Q1: I think these two will function very well together BUT I wonder if -from a technical perspective- a different MoBo would deliver better performance with this cpu/gpu combination.
3) I ordered the Fractal Design Define XL case, not the North XL. Shouldn't be an issue.
4) I ordered the Corsair RM 1000x in place of the 1000e.
5) These changes brought it to ~$3K vs, $4K, mostly due to the exchange of graphics cards. I'm not a gamer so, this suits my needs.

All suggestions are welcome. Thank you.

A concern:
A) The RAM link took me to an amazon page for G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series (Intel XMP 3.0), which I didn't notice and placed it with my order. Oof.
I'll reorder, but maybe someone can fix this link, please? Thank you.
Click to expand...
This got me too on the RAM and I really screwed up because I bought it for cheaper on eBay from a user who doesn't accept returns. The box fortunately looked bad enough and the packaging was scuffed enough I think I can get a return anyway, but good grief...make sure you have AMD-optimized RAM linked for an AMD build.
 
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JarredWaltonGPU said:
Hey @E-DarkHorse,

I'll chime in with some thoughts. First, swapping CPUs basically shouldn't matter, as they're both socket AM5 and have similar requirements (170W TDP). Downgrading to a 7900 XTX should also be fine and will cost a lot less. Swapping the case is of course fine (assuming similar or larger size on the new case), and the same should be true of the PSU.

Motherboards generally don't matter too much as far as performance goes, unless there's a specific bug or if one of the boards doesn't properly support XMP (EXPO) for a given memory kit. I would personally be hesitant to buy a second tier motherboard (meaning, B650 chipset instead of X670/X670E) just because there are often features that get cut. As an example, I have seen boards where you don't get PCIe 5.0 support on the primary M.2 slot, just because it was cheaper that way.

You say at the end that you're not a gamer, so that makes me wonder what exactly you're planning on doing with this build. There are apps that will work better on AMD GPUs (certain professional apps), and the extra VRAM might help in a few specific scenarios. But if you're looking at AMD for AI workloads — unless you're specifically wanting to learn to do AI on AMD's hardware — I would strongly recommend Nvidia GPUs. If you're not doing anything super demanding, graphically speaking, I'm not sure why you'd even need the 7900 XTX. A lot of video processing should be just as fast on a 7900 XT or 7900 GRE, and probably as far down as 7700 XT. So that could potentially save several more hundred dollars.

For the memory buy links, unfortunately our pricing engine can screw up and link seemingly similar RAM kits (and other parts) based on whatever logic the programmers use. Or perhaps someone just screwed up and linked to a non-EXPO kit. XMP should work but may not perform optimally. (TBH, most RAM kits beyond a certain point are mostly meaningless.) But I've put in a different kit (G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo) that should be better suited for an AM5 PC now.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...
I appreciate your thoughts. Yes, they help. Thank you Jarred.

I went with the X670E and the 7950x3d. I re-ordered the RAM (EXPO) which arrives today, and I'll return the XMP sometime this week.

The thing about my builds is, I use them for a pretty diverse set of applications: web development, graphics development, video production, sound engineering, and playback testing for each of these, so I find the additional parallel CPU horsepower useful when pushing them hard. This particular build is about 50% more pricey than anything I've built in the past; I am a bit surprised as I usually stay in the $1200-2000 range. My first was an 8/12 MHz 80286 back in 1987(?) or so. I mean we're talking 64k page frame memory windows, expansion cards, and being very excited about extended vs. expanded memory, and the LIM 4.0 vs. 3.5 standard.

With respect to games, I haven't really played them much. I do enjoy them but there always seems to be more important things to do. I understand recreation is important too, but I try to get that recreation away from computers. If I work and recreate in front of a computer, I'll turn into a marshmallow. Ergo, my work usually keeps me from the gaming side.

I appreciate your comment about the memory link. I worked QE/QA for a period of time and I know it helps to have eyes and feedback in the wild, so I thought I'd give a heads-up for the team.

Thanks again for your insight, Jarred.

All the best,
E-DH
 
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E-DarkHorse said:
My first was an 8/12 MHz 80286 back in 1987(?) or so. I mean we're talking 64k page frame memory windows, expansion cards, and being very excited about extended vs. expanded memory, and the LIM 4.0 vs. 3.5 standard.
Click to expand...
Kids these days don't know how good they've got it! My first PC that I bought (I was 16 and worked all summer, saved up $3,000, and wanted to buy my own PC) was a 286/12 with 2MB of RAM. That was in the summer of 1990. I spent $2,500 on it... and then Wing Commander came out in October and wanted Expanded Memory and not Extended Memory, which meant I couldn't enable the extra features with a 286. I was heartbroken!

Luckily, my dad helped me sell my PC for the same price I had paid for it, and then he bought a 386/33 and gave me his old 386/16 — a whacky Acer system that had some proprietary parts, but at least it supported EMS. It also had a 70MB hard drive that occupied two 5.25-inch bays and was LOUD. Good times. 🙂
 
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JarredWaltonGPU said:
Kids these days don't know how good they've got it! My first PC that I bought (I was 16 and worked all summer, saved up $3,000, and wanted to buy my own PC) was a 286/12 with 2MB of RAM. That was in the summer of 1990. I spent $2,500 on it... and then Wing Commander came out in October and wanted Expanded Memory and not Extended Memory, which meant I couldn't enable the extra features with a 286. I was heartbroken!

Luckily, my dad helped me sell my PC for the same price I had paid for it, and then he bought a 386/33 and gave me his old 386/16 — a whacky Acer system that had some proprietary parts, but at least it supported EMS. It also had a 70MB hard drive that occupied two 5.25-inch bays and was LOUD. Good times. :)
Click to expand...
Great story, Jarred. Those were not easy times. One had to give a lot to get a little, and compromise (as you note well), was ever present.

70M?! That's great! My first was a 1M, 5 1/4 double height Micropolis (RLL?). I ditched it -I should say I used it as a boat anchor 😎 - and got a 20 MB st-225, then a 40 MB.

I think it might be fair to say you and I walked 6 miles to school, in the snow, up hill, both ways! 😂
 
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E-DarkHorse said:
Great story, Jarred. Those were not easy times. One had to give a lot to get a little, and compromise (as you note well), was ever present.

70M?! That's great! My first was a 1M, 5 1/4 double height Micropolis (RLL?). I ditched it -I should say I used it as a boat anchor 😎 - and got a 20 MB st-225, then a 40 MB.

I think it might be fair to say you and I walked 6 miles to school, in the snow, up hill, both ways! 😂
Click to expand...
After milking the cows at 4am! LOL

(Disclaimer: I was not raised on a farm and only milked a cow a few times as a kid, possibly during Cub Scouts or similar.)
 
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Mpascall said:
Argh! I ordered all the components for the $500 build, and the memory doesn't fit! It turns out the motherboard needs DDR5 memory... Can someone update the article?
Click to expand...
Confirmed: I just followed the link and it sure does point to a motherboard with the same model number that needs DDR5. @apiltch ?

For the record, the table currently says (unrelated rows deleted for brevity):

Component TypeModelPrice (at Pub Time in USD)
MotherboardASRock B760M-HDV$94
RAMSilicon Power Value Gaming DDR4 RAM 16GB (8GBx2) 3200MHz$29
 
bit_user said:
Confirmed: I just followed the link and it sure does point to a motherboard with the same model number that needs DDR5. @apiltch ?

For the record, the table currently says (unrelated rows deleted for brevity):
​
​
Component TypeModelPrice (at Pub Time in USD)
MotherboardASRock B760M-HDV$94
RAMSilicon Power Value Gaming DDR4 RAM 16GB (8GBx2) 3200MHz$29
Click to expand...

I have the correct memory now, but it won't power on.
Are we sure the CPU is compatible with the motherboard? It says it's compatible with "13th Gen & 12th Gen and next gen Intel® Core™ Processors." The CPU suggested is 14th generation. i assume that is "next gen," right?
 
Mpascall said:
I have the correct memory now, but it won't power on.
Are we sure the CPU is compatible with the motherboard? It says it's compatible with "13th Gen & 12th Gen and next gen Intel® Core™ Processors." The CPU suggested is 14th generation. i assume that is "next gen," right?
Click to expand...
Yes that's the reference to 14th Gen. The motherboard box will have at least the manufacture date on it and if that's after Oct/Nov 2023 it should already be fully compatible. Though from what I understand boards should boot so long as they have 13th Gen support.

Does anything happen when you try to power up? (like if the board has any LEDs are they on/do fans spin)
 
This article feels like congregated data by chatGPT with some mild AI hallucinations, loosely glossed over by a human (I did pick a few grammar issues that chatGPT wouldn't miss) and generally just inconsistent with your own words, tests, and most unfortunately, it has bad advices such as taking the 7900x3d unless you're shilling for AMD, In which case please notify us there's a affiliation behind this recommendation as it's very bad. The 7800 is better in every aspect over the 7900, and only falls slightly short of the 7950 in terms of productivity yet it's still the better chip for gaming, by your own admission BTW (which is totally true)

Also why in one build you're recommending the wonderful crucial p3. Citing it as amazing value for price, and then in the next build you totally forget it exists and don't even note it on your comparison, not to mention replacing it by an inferior drive that cost exactly the same, inconsistence? Subliminal shilling? Ai hallucinations? Whichever it is you need to step up your game. It is unbefitting for Tom's hardware level site to write such a bad article
 
thestryker said:
I noticed the article was updated again and still recommends TT Smart PSUs. This is extremely bad advice to the point of being potentially dangerous. After the last update it was pointed out by many people in this thread yet here we are again.
Click to expand...
The main issue for the one who enforces that article, is to have the build at (or below) 500 bucks, no matter what. Even when the PSU in there is low quality and known to be bad purchase.

E.g Corsair CX-550, at 50 bucks, would be much better choice (mediocre quality unit),
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/f2...onze-certified-atx-power-supply-cp-9020277-na

But that would put the whole build over 500 bucks (2 bucks over) and that, article enforcer can not have.

And with this, we have the situation where people buy what TH suggest and face issues. Issues that could've solved far before any purchase, if only better PSU would be listed there.
 
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Aeacus said:
The main issue for the one who enforces that article, is to have the build at (or below) 500 bucks, no matter what. Even when the PSU in there is low quality and known to be bad purchase.

E.g Corsair CX-550, at 50 bucks, would be much better choice (mediocre quality unit),
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/f2...onze-certified-atx-power-supply-cp-9020277-na

But that would put the whole build over 500 bucks (2 bucks over) and that, article enforcer can not have.

And with this, we have the situation where people buy what TH suggest and face issues. Issues that could've solved far before any purchase, if only better PSU would be listed there.
Click to expand...
The $800 build is $802 so that's not the problem. Oh and they changed the lowest end system to a board that costs $10 more as well.
 
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thestryker said:
The $800 build is $802 so that's not the problem. Oh and they changed the lowest end system to a board that costs $10 more as well.
Click to expand...
FWIW, I pinged Avram about this to let him know about the issues and I corrected the memory/mobo problem and some other bits on the $500 build. Obviously, $10 more for a DDR4 board versus $20 more for DDR5 memory ends up as the better solution for price-limited builds. If you're doing a bit higher end system, DDR5 is now the way to go (IMO), even though it costs more, but most people using a $500 PC won't notice the difference.

I did mention the PSU issue as well, and added a note in the text pointing to the TT Toughpower 600W as a better PSU overall (which is what I put in a few months back). Unfortunately, chasing dollar savings is what some people do and that leads to problems like this.
 
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JarredWaltonGPU said:
I did mention the PSU issue as well, and added a note in the text pointing to the TT Toughpower 600W as a better PSU overall (which is what I put in a few months back). Unfortunately, chasing dollar savings is what some people do and that leads to problems like this.
Click to expand...
Yeah it's just one of those things where I know people cut corners here, but I just really don't think this site should be encouraging it since it's the least safe place to cut corners.
 
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thestryker said:
Yeah it's just one of those things where I know people cut corners here, but I just really don't think this site should be encouraging it since it's the least safe place to cut corners.
Click to expand...
We do have to be realistic about how "unsafe" this is as well. If you put in a 500W TT Smart PSU and try to pull 500W from it, that would be potentially risky. If you're building the rig we're recommending that will only pull maybe 200W peak, with spikes up to perhaps 300W? I'm quite sure it will be fine. (But also: I wouldn't personally go with a decade old 500W PSU just to save $10.)

I've heard horror stories about low-spec PSUs failing, but honestly I've never personally experienced it in many years of PC building. When such a PSU fails, people will post about it and make waves, but when they just keep plugging along in dust-filled PCs? No one takes pictures to say "my crappy PSU keeps working." I've serviced dozens of PCs over the years that had far worse PSUs than a 500W Thermaltake Smartpower, and even then PSU failures are relatively rare.

I've had more expensive 1000W PSUs go bad after a few years of use (none catastrophically), and I've had some lower tier PSUs fail as well. But you really have to try to be unsafe to get most PSUs to catch fire. Like even the Gigabyte models had to first go well beyond the rated output where OCP was supposed to kick in, and then they'd fail catastrophically under normal loads. Hitting 1000W power draw requires serious effort, even with high-end parts. Like, two 4090 cards would get there, sure, but who puts two 4090 cards on a low-end PSU?
 
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JarredWaltonGPU said:
We do have to be realistic about how "unsafe" this is as well. If you put in a 500W TT Smart PSU and try to pull 500W from it, that would be potentially risky. If you're building the rig we're recommending that will only pull maybe 200W peak, with spikes up to perhaps 300W? I'm quite sure it will be fine. (But also: I wouldn't personally go with a decade old 500W PSU just to save $10.)

I've heard horror stories about low-spec PSUs failing, but honestly I've never personally experienced it in many years of PC building. When such a PSU fails, people will post about it and make waves, but when they just keep plugging along in dust-filled PCs? No one takes pictures to say "my crappy PSU keeps working." I've serviced dozens of PCs over the years that had far worse PSUs than a 500W Thermaltake Smartpower, and even then PSU failures are relatively rare.
Click to expand...
Anecdotally I've not had low quality power supplies fail catastrophically either, but I do have friends over the years that lost components to power supply failure (no fires though!). The two power supply failures I've had were both relatively benign one with some smoke and the other blew instantly on first power on (this one was a good quality PSU so just factory fault).

That doesn't mean I'd ever cut corners here "because it's probably fine" or ever recommend someone do so. The old addage it's 100% of the time if you're the one it happens to applies here in my estimation.

The whole point of a tech outfit putting out a buyers guide should be to steer people towards the best option within a price point not just selecting bottom tier because it's cheap.

I'd go on a tirade about the CPU choices being dumb, but I'd rather focus on what I consider to be the most egregious problem which has persisted.
 
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JarredWaltonGPU said:
We do have to be realistic about how "unsafe" this is as well. If you put in a 500W TT Smart PSU and try to pull 500W from it, that would be potentially risky. If you're building the rig we're recommending that will only pull maybe 200W peak, with spikes up to perhaps 300W? I'm quite sure it will be fine.
Click to expand...
What about noisy power? Do you suppose a cheap PSU will be more susceptible to surges, or less capable of protecting other system components during one?

I have pretty good power, but last summer a surge took out a power strip (with built-in surge protector) and a window fan with a digital thermostat. Everything else in my home is either a big appliance or plugged into a high-quality UPS or power filter and was just fine. A lot of people building low-cost PCs are likely just to plug them directly into the wall or through only a cheap surge protector - which still leaves a large range where the PSU is your only protection.
 
bit_user said:
What about noisy power? Do you suppose a cheap PSU will be more susceptible to surges, or less capable of protecting other system components during one?
Click to expand...
When there are main electricity grid issues, surge protector doesn't help. Heck, most surge protectors doesn't even work and are selling false sense of security.
Even you have experienced it 1st hand. IF the surge protector works as advertised, your window fan would've survived just fine.

For surges and brownouts, AVR should be used. Proper one.
And if more money, then line-interactive, true/pure sine wave UPS, that comes with AVR built in. It then protects against blackouts too.
 
bit_user said:
What about noisy power? Do you suppose a cheap PSU will be more susceptible to surges, or less capable of protecting other system components during one?

I have pretty good power, but last summer a surge took out a power strip (with built-in surge protector) and a window fan with a digital thermostat. Everything else in my home is either a big appliance or plugged into a high-quality UPS or power filter and was just fine. A lot of people building low-cost PCs are likely just to plug them directly into the wall or through only a cheap surge protector - which still leaves a large range where the PSU is your only protection.
Click to expand...
I've lived in some older homes that didn't even have proper grounding when I was young, but thankfully that was 35–40 years ago. LOL. I don't know that any of the recent places I've lived have been good or bad, tbh. I've plugged lots of stuff into power strips and have been "lucky" I suppose. Which is why, anecdotally, I think a lot of people exaggerate how 'dangerous' a cheap PSU can be. I've almost never used a proper UPS (I had one once and when the battery 'died' after less than two years, I never bothered replacing it). And I've definitely never used a line conditioner or anything like that. YMMV, naturally.

I did live in a place for several years where thunderstorms would routinely cause the lights to flicker, incidentally. Even that still wasn't enough to cause any PC component failures, just the occasional (rare!) reboot. And that was in the 2000s when I definitely was not using quality PSUs! Heck, I had cheap PCs that I built in cases that included power supplies, and they still worked and survived for many years.

So basically, when I look at the PCs I built back then that had Radeon 9700 Pro through perhaps Radeon X1950 XT, as well as some GeForce Ti 4200, 7800, and 7900 GTX cards... well, those were all in similar power ranges to an A380, and I was using probably 350W garbage PSUs. If I could do that back then, I can't believe a reasonably modern 500W PSU would be worse than any of those older power supplies. Most were probably only about 60% efficient!

Don't get me wrong: Delivering 500~700 watts of power to a higher spec CPU and GPU needs better than cheap junk power. But a budget PC that might draw 200W simply isn't that difficult to handle in my experience. I would still generally go for 80 Plus Gold and a better reviewed PSU model personally, and I've said as much, but there are those who can't resist shaving $10 off the price to hit sub-$500. 🤷‍♂️
 
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