Carmack: PCs Not Important As Consoles

[Guest]

How did I know you would post back
ok
http://techliberation.com/2008/07/15/pc-game-software-sales-actually-growing/
here

If you take a look at google must of it is postive
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=pc+game+sales+&meta=

Not only that EA second best plat was pc right under the ps3

Sin of the solar empire sold 2 mill games
mass effect sold only 1 mill on console and is doing better on pc.
unreal toument 3 only sold 500 the rest was pc sellng the best. Do mind you alot of pc gamers are not happy with Ut3 because it was a port game. The game also couldn't handle Mods.

daiblo3, guild wars,star craft,spore,dragonage are going to very well you will see.

 

[Guest]

Here is another fact if the pc game industry ever died it would be the death gaming for. It's the pv gaming Industry that has created every game know to man. Pc gaming has created every genre. Pc gaming is what pushies grapics and tech hardware. If that dies that would put intel,amd,invidea and ati at major loss. it would slow down hard ware progress. Intel,Amd,invidia and ati would turn on consoles on a heart beat hardware makers in heart beat if that ever happened. They make their money by selling new hard ware.

 

[dgrambo]

The PC is still the true creativity sandbox for dedicated artists. Its easy to differentiate those with dedication to craft and those otherwise motivated. Carmack is once again leading the way, but this time its towards that comfortable "good enough" zone. The place where the softened genius' wade in the quagmire of mediocrity. Good for profits but its a worthless legacy. Say "hi" to the Yerli's for me. -dg

 

[Aintry]

"It's the pv gaming Industry that has created every game know to man."

OMG!!. Before the PC gaming industry came along there was "Pong." You probably aren't old enough to remember that, the bomb; I am. When I was in college and people didn't *have* personal computers, there were video arcade games. If anything, *those* things drove the PC games industry, not the other way around. That and "Dungeons and Dragons" -- a *board* game, for God's sake. Anyone remember that? It's the basis for just about every modern multiplayer computer fantasy game.

Where in heck do you get your information, the bomb? I lived through all of this stuff and I know for a fact that, in the early '80s, computers that could barely handle word processing chores were being blown out of the water, game-wise, by contemporary video arcade machines. And these machines are very much reminiscent of modern consoles.

My guess is that the video gaming industry would survive if even if computers lost the capability to play games altogether.

 

[Guest]

Pong wasn't the first game ever made. Only universities and goverments had computers at the time. Pong is the first console game ever made. People couldn't afford a computer at that time.

Pong has a histoy

http://www.pong-story.com/intro.htm

 

[Aintry]

For those dissing Carmack -- I wonder how many of you wouldn't readily trade places with him right now if you could. Lol.

 

[Guest]

John Carmack needs to shut his mouth. he flips and flops and talks like he is the hot shit of gaming, but if you comment every 2 months and change your mind over and over again, OF COURSE YOUR GOING TO PICK THE RIGHT ONE! Carmack used to say that the PC is THE platform for gaming. im getting sick of it. im getting sick of him. Carmack, ur an AMAZING programmer, but you suck as a market analyst. SHUT UP.

 

[Aintry]

[citation][nom]the bomb[/nom]Pong wasn't the first game ever made. Only universities and goverments had computers at the time. Pong is the first console game ever made. People couldn't afford a computer at that time.Pong has a histoyhttp://www.pong-story.com/intro.htm[/citation]

I didn't say that "Pong" was the first game ever made. I said that it predated the PC gaming industry, which it did. You said it yourself -- computers weren't accessible to the masses, the "Pong" console was.

I know quite a lot about the history of computers; my father is a retired government physicist. Let's get real, OK? We're talking about mass-market items here, not stuff in the laboratory.

Games, including video games, were put on the market long before the PC became a marketable reality. Your statement that "the pc gaming industry has created every game known to man" is absurd.

 

[Guest]

I have facts to prove my case games wore used to test the cumputers back then. The firs true video game is tic tac toe
http://www.pong-story.com/1952.htm
there was pc too but they were use by spies

Name me one game that wasn't made by a computer

 

[vcolon]

[citation][nom]Brianmj[/nom]"Amen to that. John Carmack is just another John Romero. I'll laugh my ass off if Rage turns out to be another Daikatana. The likes of Carmack have gone to the darkside of GREED. They know they make more money with console games due to their proprietary formats. That's why you often see the same damn game retail for less on PC than on consoles. Get a life Carmack. I bet you've never even kissed a girl, or boy for that matter.
"He's married.[/citation]
Yeah, I heard they had forced same sex marriage onto the citizens of California by taking it to court. Even though the MAJORITY did not want it.

 

[jerreece]

Here's the thing. I personally hate playing consoles. I just don't like using the controllers and such. Much rather have a mouse/keyboard combination.

But, why are PC sales down? How about the fact that XBOX, PS3, and Wii are a dime a dozen? Why? Because ANYONE can buy one and plug it in. And because tons of money is spent to ADVERTISE and promote them as if they are the biggest, baddest gaming units out there. Thus, all the hype (marketing) creates sales.

How often do any of the PC software or hardware companies spend any money advertising their stuff outside their own websites? Heck, only thing I've seen on TV is Blizzard's WoW commercials (which were funny btw, especially the MR T one). Why are sales for PC games down? Because so many people are converting over to XBOX 360, Wii, and PS3. Why? Because they're told how great they are.

Computers are more versatile, and can be built at almost any price (you can spend as much or as little as you want). Sure not everyone gets the same FPS and such, but you can also use it for email, internet, music, work etc etc. As for me, I'm sticking to PC.

Hopefully PC software/hardware companies realize the problem is theirs. They need to put some effort into putting out good quality games, and actually push some advertising and create some hype.

 

[miribus]

t amuses me to see PC fans make cost comparisons between PCs and consoles without taking the element of time or expertise into account. How long did it take you, a technophile, to gain the knowledge to upgrade or build your own computer with confidence? A while, right?

Even though you are able to get on the internet you can read scores of reviews and pick up the technology rather quick without having to know squat. The media publications, websites, and the companies themselves seem to cater specifically to the enthusiasts, even with their mainstream products. It's strange and it's stupid, but it's not that hard to learn if you're even interested in looking ito it.

The point is, either you're interested in PC gaming and getting more out of your PC, or your not.
If you're not, then stick to console gaming.
1) There is nothing wrong with console gaming, truly. Despite the occasional sarcastic remark for punctuation.
2) There is no reason the two can't co-exist. They serve different purposes for different types of people.

I can't imagine my tech-dumb sister, for example, doing all of the research necessary to put together a custom gaming PC for my nephew -- slogging through tech forum and after tech forum for days or weeks, researching the PSU, the motherboard, sound card, video card, RAM, case cooling fans, monitor and so on -- when she could bypass all of that by simply buying my nephew a console.

Or, you could help her and heaven forbid teach her and her nephew a bunch of extremely useful PC skills in the meantime.
OR... if all she wants is a toy for her nephew, by a console.

Tech-heads sometimes have the strangest ideas of what to expect from the average consumer. Just because something seems feasible to you doesn't necessarily mean that it seems that way to someone else.

Then you know the wrong tech heads. I myself, being by far the most tech savvy in my family or group for that matter have no problem helping others since it's useful information to know in this growing digital world we live in. Don't run away from technology. Don't let the shiny-ness and pretty blinking lights scare you. Trust me, it's not the devil's work. It's not witchcraft.

It's simple, really. I'm making a big generalization here but I'm guessing that even though someone (such as myself, actually) probably only purchased a PC in the first place solely for playing games they have found far more to do with it and much easier. In truth PC gaming is more about a heavy PC culture that centers around tuning your PC for gaming, but it does further than that. Not unlike a car tuner.
Consoles play games very well, and do fine with movies... and, goodness knows maybe they'll one day finally be the catch-all media pc we want them to be (to save us time and trouble.) But the fact remains, despite it's outstanding Blu-Ray support the PS3 is still lacking in much of the media features I want from it.
So... If I'm going to buy and have a PC anyway, why not make it a gaming one for not much more.
Stop hanging yourself up on the video card prices of the highest end assuming that everything else is useless because it's untrue.

PC gaming is as much about hardcore, arguably even the hardest of the hardcore getting more out of their computers than is already there. And that's what the PC gaming alliance or whatever the heck their name is needs to realize. Most people already have PCs that could be suitably gaming capable if they bothered to really think about it and stop catering to enthusiasts with numbers and stats that don't mean anything to someone who just might want to play.

 

[miribus]

To clarify, what I meant was that the PC gaming alliance needs to work harder at getting the gaming technologies inside PCs easier to understand rather than just spitting out stats that don't mean anything to anyone except the enthusiast first.
And to find a way to get a concerted effort to make games run more consistently (even if it's not pretty) and get people to understand that with little modification they can open up a whole new use for their PCs that they almost certainly already have.

 

[Nameless1]

I understand why Mr. Carmack would want to focus on consoles. Instead of bashing him why don't some of you bash the pirates. They are responsible for the decline of PC gaming market and they are also responsible for all that ridiculous copy protection that we, the game purchasers, have to put up with.

AS for PC vs. console games... as far as I'm concerned there's barely any overlap. I have PS3 but I can name only 1-2 games from that platform that I wish were released on PC. To the contrary, I wish most console games never crossed over to the PC platform. Case in point: Mass Effect and Assassins Creed. When you play games like that you get the feeling that developers spent 99% of time and resources on graphics&sound and 1% on everything else. Some us, who played games like Fallout, Beneath the Steel Sky, Baldur's Gate, Thief and etc expect little bit more out of the game than cliche plot and shallow gameplay.
I recently hooked up my PC to 42 imch TV and played Bioshock on it. I set the details to high and I can assure it looked better than on any console. And I don't have tricked out PC. (Athlon 64 3700+. NVIDIA 7600)

 

[martel80]

[citation]... [/citation]
The problem is that you take only the hardware into consideration. But what about software? You need some skill to administer the installed OS, install programs, fend off malicious software etc. on a PC. You don't bother on a console. So you may take the additional time spent managing the PC / learning OS and consider it as additional cost (since normal people would be bothered rather than amused when doing this). Note that this may totally ruin one's experience with the device.
And are you sure that your older XP copy is a full retail one and not OEM (in which case you're violating the license)? Usually, people will get OEM Windows when buying a new PC.

 

[nirgal]

Here is a list of problems taht teh PC gaming industry are facing nad what i think they need to do.

Can you repeat that in English?

 

[miribus]

You need some skill to administer the installed OS, install programs, fend off malicious software etc. on a PC.

Regardless of what you use it for, unless it's to organize your baseball cards or something and it's never online... you're going to have to know how to do that anyway. It's just good sense and preventative maintenance, even on a student's laptop or your grandmother's PC.

So you may take the additional time spent managing the PC / learning OS and consider it as additional cost (since normal people would be bothered rather than amused when doing this). Note that this may totally ruin one's experience with the device.

Again, if you've already got a PC, installing a game and playing it isn't all that much harder if you want to try it. PCs are becoming ubiquitous, like automobiles in our daily life (if they aren't already.)
Learning how better to use and fix them on your own is a good idea and considerably easier than automobiles (given the relative similarities in PC designs, and space required to do anything) to work on for yourself.

Granted there is a technological and thus a learning curve needed to hurdle to upgrade from a standard PC to even a rudimentary gaming one. If people are interested in playing on it, explain to them what a video card is and how to install it. If they get immediately frustrated then get them a DS.

PC gaming as a platform, technologically speaking, is one thing, it can be far superior in every way.
Advertising it well enough for the mainstream is another. And that is where the PC as a gaming platform sucks wind. Major advances in technology, and those so quick to adopt it, dominated the gaming market for so long hardware companies forgot how to advertise for the mainstream.
Nintendo didn't and it has served them well.
Microsoft and Sony didn't and it gave their customers sticker shock driving the mainstream towards Nintendo... needlessly.

PC hardware and game manufacturers need to make a concerted effort to remember how to do that again, before 3d cards and faster hardware made everything so easy for them to get their code to run better they used to do things like that.

For me, most of the console games out there, while pretty, and with the exception of RPGs and Sports titles, lack the depth in character than on the PC which is why I stick to it by and large.

Enough with the demanding hardware, start making good games again!
The same goes for you consoles!

Look to Blizzard, they make outstanding games (ok, well critically I mean, you may have your own opinion) and WoW manages to still look pleasing 4 years later and could be run very well on very modest requirements even when it was released.

I ran it on a 2Ghz Celeron with a Geforce256. Yes, that's right, a Geforce256. I have a friend who plays it daily on his AthlonXP 2000+ with Geforce3... why? because it's just a good game and not a tech demo!

 

[Nameless1]

"1. Xbox 360 (no HDD)- 400
2. xbox 360 w/HDD - 500
3. Sony PS3 w 20 gig HDD - 600
4. Sony PS3 w 60 gig HDD - 700"


Those were the release prices, but that's not all you'll pay over life of the console. That's what I dislike about consoles the most: open-ended pricing structure. There's a reason why games for consoles are 10-15$ more expensive than their PC counterparts: hardware manufacturer get their share too. And then of course they nickel and dime for every extra content, online play and etc. You want to buy accessories? Be prepared to pay extra. Few months ago I read this article about Xbox360 owners just about ready to riot about pricing for one popular online game: when all was added they had to shell out well over 120$.

Somebody mentioned marketing factor- I think that biggest genius of console makers is convincing public that console is only 300-400$. Over life of the console I wouldn't be surprised if you actually spent 1000$ or more on the hardware alone.

 

[DXRick]

You can defend the PC all you want. On THG you are just preaching to the choir.

People are buying laptops now days to run productivity apps, surf the net, and use email. They may also buy games they can play on a laptop. This crowd does not play games like Crysis.

Consoles are for those that want a home arcade, either for themselves or their kids. They want to play the types of games that are in arcades today, without the need to drop in quarters. 😛 It's just a toy.

Obviously, we know that you can build a PC that does almost the same thing for near the same price. The console crowd just sees gaming PCs at Best Buy or Dell that are priced above $1,500. For them, it is cheaper to buy a $600 laptop and a $400 console.

Far more consoles have been sold in the past few years than gaming PCs. I watched (and laughed) at the frenzy of the PS3 and Wii launches. :lol:

I have no desire to get a console system, because I (like most of you) would rather play games on my self built gaming PC, with mouse/keyboard and much better graphics. I could care less if the next PC I build costs more than a Wii. In addition to surfing the net, sending email, and using Office apps, I want to play FPS, RTS, role-playing, and adventure games! I am also a computer programmer.

I also don't see how having to write a game that works on 3 different console systems (and their various controllers) is easier than writing a PC game that runs on Windows and uses DirectX or OpenGL and a keyboard/mouse.

And finally, I think Microsoft is somewhat to blame. Vista is a bomb. They could have created a Xbox/PC hybrid now that runs XP, instead of wasting billions on Vista.

 

[chechak]

you can't say that Consoles is better or pc is better ,there is much difference's ,you must first ask your self :
on what machine Consoles game& software is developed ? ..ahhhaa pc !!!!!
what is a hardware is used for pc & consoles or company's involved in ??
if i put nvidia GTX 280 SLI mode,is it more power full than any console??
ohhha yaaa what about money consoles is much cheaper or what ?
ohhhh yyaa ok ,what i can do with new games .must buy new consoles every year or what ???
what about game play in consoles game pad is it better than keyboard & mouse (in first person shooter games{never} )
just games games games & music & video film =consoles
or games & every thing wna do other than that =PC
which one ?
whats person you are simple (just put DVD and play)
or
wana install then ,,,,,,,play ?

so what do thing ???

 

[master9716]

The thing is that gamers dont realize that they can run all the new games with old graphics cards , People seem to think that they need the newest gear.You do but for EXTREME resolutions and Textures.A Pc game looks AMAZING at 1280x720 on a Plasma you dont need 1920x1080 .

The truth is that you can run games at their lowest settings and it will still look better than Xbox or Ps3 games. Gamers dont realize that conecting a PC to your Hdtv is so easy .

 

[dariushro]

As long as PC gaming has Blizzard and Valve, we're safe.

Let the naysayers go to consoles.

 

[eccentric909]

"1. Xbox 360 (no HDD)- 400
2. xbox 360 w/HDD - 500
3. Sony PS3 w 20 gig HDD - 600
4. Sony PS3 w 60 gig HDD - 700"

First, I paid $400 for my 360 on release day with a HD.. now you can get one for $300, I actually own 2 360's, one for myself and one for my son. I paid $250 for my Wii, which is due for a price break. I paid $850 for my latest PC I built, $600 for each of my girlfriend's and son's latest PCs respectively. My girlfriend and I have 22" Widescreen LCDs, my son has a 19" WS LCD. I've built all of my own PCs since the late 80's/early 90's when 4MB of ram would run you $200. We all game on each and every system in the house.

However, when my little cousins come over to visit, what is it you think they want to play? The answer isn't the PC, it's the 360 or Wii.

The most gaming I really do on my PC nowadays, is WoW (although Spore will eventually be added to the list). I would do more, if I didn't have terrible carpal tunnel, forcing me to use a trackball (at least until I have surgery). I've been gaming on PCs since the 80s when I owned an Amiga, a TRS-80, 8088/286 (CGA), Vic-20 and a C64, then to the 90s to present day with a 386, 486, (Cyrix 586 LOL), Pentium, PPro, P2, P3, Core2Duo, Athlon, X2 (no phenom).. not to mention the video cards Stealth S220, Voodoo, TNT, TNT2, GeForce1 - 8800GT, Ati Rage3D, 7500 - 4870. I've also owned at least one console from every generation, 2600, Coleco, Intellivision, Sears Triangle (not sure what it's real name was anymore), NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Wii, Master System, Genesis, SegaCD, Saturn, Dreamcast, Turbo Graphics 16, 3DO, Neo Geo console, PS1, PS2, XBox1, 360, Gameboy, Game Gear, DS, PSP.. and more that I can't remember.

Until the last few years, upgrading your PC's video card to play console or arcade quality games was expensive, hell as I mentioned above 4MB of ram would run you $200 not that long ago. Sure the PC has had the upper-hand when it comes to graphics with the introduction of 3d gaming and the 3dfx Voodoo cards, but the console will always win for ease of use and accessibility.

Yes, even console games have patches now, but it's all done seamlessly in the background and they will still run even if you don't have your console hooked up to your LAN. Unlike a few games I've bought for the PC over the years, that wouldn't even run out of the box without a patch.

There is room for all markets, PC gaming and Console gaming.. as well as handheld and cell phone. PC Gaming isn't dying, but it is not nearly as important as console gaming development is today. To someone who said consoles aren't big in Europe, that's a total falsehood as well. Europe's console market close to as big, if not the same size as the US. Europe is starting to take on Japan as far as importance in the console gaming realm goes. It is not nearly as important for a console to have the highest sales in Japan as it once was.

WoW also might have 10 million subscribers, me being one of them (actually we have 5 accounts in our house), but Halo 3 sold over 8 million copies between it's release day to January '08 alone, with millions playing on XBox Live every single day. Not to mention that the first-day sales of Halo 3 reached $170 million in the U.S., setting the record for highest gross of an entertainment product within 24 hours of its release, and worldwide totaling $300 million in it's first week worldwide.

I personally dislike having my PC hooked up to my 42in LCD TV to try to play WoW or Supreme Commander. I'd much rather sit in a chair at my desk, where I feel more comfortable using my keyboard and trackball. But the reverse is also true when I'm trying to immerse myself in an epic adventure such as Mass Effect or a hack n' slash fest like Devil May Cry 4.

I prefer playing fighting games (SCIV, DOA4), hack n' slash (DMC4, NG2), Non-MMO-RPGs (Mass Effect and JRPGS like Final Fantasy), sports games, racing games, action/adventure, platformers, some FPS and some RTS on consoles over the PC. I prefer MMOs, most FPS (if I could use a mouse), most RTS and turn-based strategy games on a PC. Well, even turn based strategies on the PSP/DS are quite fun as well.

I guess this long-winded mess of a post is just to say that there is room for both markets. I would even go so far as to say, no PCs aren't nearly as important as consoles when it comes to gaming anymore, except in certain genres. But it certainly is still important, nonetheless.

I really enjoy building/upgrading my own PCs and getting the best bang for my buck, having my hands inside the case and picking out my own parts is so much fun. It also gives you a sense of accomplishment when you test your new PC with some synthetic benchmarks and see how much your scores improve.

But, unlike PC game development, console game developers improve upon graphics, realism and other goodies by tweaking the systems and pushing more out of the hardware, rather than making you upgrade your components to get the most out of the game. Console games get "prettier" over the lifespan of the system, whereas a new PC game depending on your current rig can either run like a champ or run like a dud because your video card or processor is 2 or more years old.

The market isn't PC vs Console.. the market is gaming. Whether you prefer to do it on a console or a PC, is your choice. Whichever you choose as your favorite, or if you choose to embrace all forms of gaming, you'll come out on top. There is so much choice out there for consumers, that we can all be winners, no matter which we prefer.

No one platform is better than the other, it is a personal preference we all decide upon and shouldn't think less of one another for liking something different from our own choice.

What is made abundantly clear by a lot of the comments here though, is that people really have lost all sense of how to use grammar, spelling and punctuation. While I'm far from perfect myself, some of the posts are just unbearable to read.

Yes, yes, I know.. TLDR.

 

[engrpiman]

Carmack is a god!!

no , but really... I think his method (used in id-tech 5) of having the engine do cross platform is a good one. First it cuts the port time to zero because no porting is needed and it allows for all platforms to milked, more money for the developer.

How can someone argue with a engine that lets your develop for all all the platforms but with no extra cost. Also it makes the gamer happy because they get the game on their platform.

I also believe that a "bad" id game is better then the good games from some studios. While DOOM3 was dark it was also a lot of fun (same goes for prey and Q4).

Quake wars is a great game and is superior to the competition. After playing QW I feel that the Megatextures has proven its self as a great technology and I am looking forward to what version 3 of Megatextures has to bring to the table.

Also I have no problem with Rage taking multiple DVD's. I have tuns of free space on my PC and with Hard drives as cheap as they are I think its time someone used them.

 

[Nameless1]

"There is room for all markets, PC gaming and Console gaming.. as well as handheld and cell phone. PC Gaming isn't dying, but it is not nearly as important as console gaming development is today."

There might be room in the market, but I get the impression that big players are trying hard to get rid of PC. Lets face it: developers hate PC because of piracy and hardware manufacturers hate it because of the low profit margins. Which PC/ PC part manufacturer can boast 35% profit margins that Apple has for its Macs?
For me it's not about PC vs. Mac, Xbox or PS3; it's about open format vs more expensive proprietary systems. Even Microsoft would like nothing better than moving all of the gaming to console( preferably Xbox360, of course). Games are the applications that are most taxing on hardware and OS and when PC crashes, guess who gets the blame? The OS. So, Microsoft would love people to use PCs only for MS office and such and leave gaming to consoles, where they can charge the heck out of people. PC is great for consumers, but it sucks for companies because they cannot milk it as is the case with proprietary systems.

So, yea, I'm preaching to the choir and "defending" the PC. Not because I feel sentimental and have intimate relationship with my PC; heck, from the technological point of view PC standard is crappy and outdated. But I get the feeling that it's either this terrible PC that everybody complains about or some other proprietary systems where you overpay and get screwed. And the big players are already busy fixing the game so that it can have only one outcome. I sure hope I'm wrong about this though.