Convince me to stick with AMD in my new rebuild?

[DMMag]

Hi there folks. I started a thread, here in the System category and I have hit a break point of indecision. In the thread you'll find a list of parts I have. The key two being:
1: AMD FX-8350 8 Core Vishera
2: Gigabyte R9 380 4gb GPU.

I need to replace my PSU, was informed it's Tier 5 and what that means. I've also got a mobo that's hit its ceiling on being able to plug upgrades into it. Between these two, I purchased a new case, with the intent to either port over my Vishera and the R9 380 and build an AMD system with the potential to rip out both CPU and GPU later on for upgrades in 1-3 years. OR, switch to Intel, after using AMD for the better part of a decade.

Everything I am seeing, people are jumping up and down waving the Intel flag. With silence on the AMD front. Is there someone informed on the AMD line that can give me hope to save money, stick with my Vishera, buy an AMD board and go forward hoping for a better CPU in the near future?

I just picked up a SSD, and I need a PSU. Between the two, my budge will be down to about $600. I've got case, SSD, sound, networking, and GPU cards, with Storage HDD's, Blu-Ray drive, and of course, my Vishera+ Cooling Fan.

So, is this a dead end, with no hope to avoid purchasing an Intel Board with a new Intel CPU after I just invested in my FX-8350 back in March? Or is there someone with knowledge about AMD systems that can offer me insight on their CPU's? Folks in the thread linked were saying someone with AMD knowledge should chime in, so bringing it up here.

Thanks for any who help me out!

 

[junkeymonkey]

helped a guy the other day no mouse no keyboard no windows install [7] and you can goolle it around and see more on it as well

the board venders now have a tool/patch thing that inserts the driver in to get things going some how

http://www.asrock.com/microsite/Win7Install/

all you loose with haswell is ddr4 ? I cant see skylake over it ? i''ll take something that's known to work and proven not get this and find stuff may not work as planed not impressed at all ..

read the conclusion

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/23

no benefit
http://www.overclock.net/t/1568025/dglee-retail-skylake-i7-6700k-reviewed-finally

 

[Murissokah]

Yeah Kabylake is Skylake refresh like Devil's Canyon is Haswell refresh. Cannonlake is pushed back to 2017, so AMD will release Zen before Intel releases Cannonlake.

Exactly, which means there is no imminent change in Intel architecture, since Skylake is the most current one and is readily available for purchase.

So back to the OP, you can either shell out for Skylake, stick to AMD if it serves your needs or wait for zen (which may be a reason to stick to AMD but is hardly expected to overcome Intel performance-wise). Considering your budgetary description, I'd say wellsburg (X99 platform, with Haswell-E or the incoming Broadwell-E) are way too expensive and generally hard to justify. If I were in your shoes, I'd go skylake this friday.

 

[DMMag]

Hey, question on comparison: Is my Vishera 8-core 4.0 with 8 gp Cache on par with the I7-4790 Devil's Canyon Quad Core 8 gb Cache CPU? Trying to gather the differences between how the two companies word things. Cores, Threads, Hyper-threading, etc.

IF they are essentially the same, or my Vishera is superior, that helps me process things.

Then, how does my Vishera compare to say the I7-5820K 6 core 3.3 ghz?

The difference being, barring sales coming in the next 7 days, me having debt I pay off by Feb, or debt I pay off by June for the parts I've ordered so far, and what I snag in the next week. If there's not much difference, I'm fine ripping this old mobo out and slotting it into my new case for another year with the new PSU. I can save on the OS, mobo, CPU, and live with the Vishera and 16 gb of RAM for a year if that's the case. IF there is significant differences warranting the cost of a $900 charge over a $200 charge, that's something for me to really need convincing I guess.

 

[Murissokah]

Hey, question on comparison: Is my Vishera 8-core 4.0 with 8 gp Cache on par with the I7-4790 Devil's Canyon Quad Core 8 gb Cache CPU?

Not quite. Vishera uses a different approach to multi-core than Intel's Devil's Canyon, in which AMD duplicates Execution Cores but not Floating Point Units. This means that, given the same amount of cores, Intel's CPUs will have more resources, but, considering Vishera packs 8 cores while Devil's Canyon packs 4, Vishera is more competent in heavily threaded workloads (even with HT on the Intel side). The thing is, single core performance is still significantly faster in Devil's Canyon, which translates to a much more perceivable performance advantage in real world situations. So, in short, Vishera is not quite up to Devil's Canyon.

Here are some benchmarks you can check:
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2015/-36-Total-Time,3728.html (total time, less is better)

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/995?vs=697

Comparing to the i7-5820 will be a bit different. The extra 2 cores will more than make up for the multicore disadvantage Devil's Canyon would have agains Vishera, but you would benefit a little bit less in single thread performance, because of the lower clock speeds imposed by the additional thermal footprint from the extra 2 cores. Here's the comparison:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1320?vs=697

In this last scenario I have to remind you Broadwell-E is scheduled for H1'2016 and will remain using the wellsburg platform (x99), so you may want to hold for that if you decide to spend this much. After Broadwell-E, though, the platform will change in 2017.

 

[DMMag]

Hrm, have a feeling questions I have will get me into far deeper water than I can swim with techno babble. However, thanks for that, and one more:

With all of these cores, threads, etc, etc. Lets say I am running 5 different programs. Does my CPU lay out the load of the programs between cores to spread the load? Or does each program start on a single core, with only spillover if the application is multi-threaded? IE, if I have a program open that is going to eat 10%, another 5%, another 20%, and another 11% of a Core's load. Will the CPU automatically distribute these to Cores 1, 2, 3 and 4 to share the load? Or will it pile the whole 46% worth onto a single core?

Yeah, my issue being, I just bought the Vishera and my GPU in March. I need a RAM and PSU upgrade now. If I want more RAM, I need a new OS. I'm ripping out the PSU, and installing everything in a new case. This is the perfect time to go all in. However, it's a *CRAP* time it seems to be dealing with a motherboard/ram/CPU identity crisis. AMD change next year, makes anything I buy now obsolete by Dec next year. Blah.

 

[RobCrezz]

Hey, question on comparison: Is my Vishera 8-core 4.0 with 8 gp Cache on par with the I7-4790 Devil's Canyon Quad Core 8 gb Cache CPU? Trying to gather the differences between how the two companies word things. Cores, Threads, Hyper-threading, etc.

IF they are essentially the same, or my Vishera is superior, that helps me process things.

Then, how does my Vishera compare to say the I7-5820K 6 core 3.3 ghz?

The difference being, barring sales coming in the next 7 days, me having debt I pay off by Feb, or debt I pay off by June for the parts I've ordered so far, and what I snag in the next week. If there's not much difference, I'm fine ripping this old mobo out and slotting it into my new case for another year with the new PSU. I can save on the OS, mobo, CPU, and live with the Vishera and 16 gb of RAM for a year if that's the case. IF there is significant differences warranting the cost of a $900 charge over a $200 charge, that's something for me to really need convincing I guess.

No, your 8350 is inferior to the 4790 by quite a lot depending on the task. The 5820k is almost as quick as the 4790 in single threaded tasks, but considerably faster in tasks that can use 6-12 threads.

 

[DMMag]

Thank you both. Suggestion then on an Intel CPU/Mobo/RAM combo that will function with my R9 380 card with a 750W psu? I need the combo to fit within a $650 budget and which is a future friendly as possible for my home business. I'll turn this into a media box with cheap upgrades when I get some cash then to replace what I strip from it.

Would it be better to just get the Devil's canyon quad core 4.0 or something comparable on sale now, and when the price drops next year, I have the Mobo to upgrade again? If that's the case, Motherboard suggestions to go with it for a long haul without needing to rip the one I buy now out next year?

 

[RobCrezz]

Thank you both. Suggestion then on an Intel CPU/Mobo/RAM combo that will function with my R9 380 card with a 750W psu? I need the combo to fit within a $650 budget and which is a future friendly as possible for my home business. I'll turn this into a media box with cheap upgrades when I get some cash then to replace what I strip from it.

Would it be better to just get the Devil's canyon quad core 4.0 or something comparable on sale now, and when the price drops next year, I have the Mobo to upgrade again? If that's the case, Motherboard suggestions to go with it for a long haul without needing to rip the one I buy now out next year?

Yeah a devils canyon setup would be more suitable in terms of price, and its not far off skylake performance.

ill post a spec in your budget, brb.

 

[RobCrezz]

Ok so this if you dont want to overclock (the xeon listed is essentially the i7 4790 with no IGPU at a discounted price).

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1231 V3 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($227.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: ASRock H97 Anniversary ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($59.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Sniper Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($34.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $322.97
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-11-24 07:54 EST-0500


This if you do want to overclock

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($299.99 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: Phanteks PH-TC12DX_BK 68.5 CFM CPU Cooler ($49.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus Z97-A ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Sniper Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($34.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $474.96
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-11-24 07:59 EST-0500

 

[RobCrezz]

And this if you really really want the high end platform with the 6 core / 12 thread cpu (but you really need to require the extra cores/threads to make this worthwhile)

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K 3.3GHz 6-Core Processor ($364.99 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Phanteks PH-TC12DX_BK 68.5 CFM CPU Cooler ($49.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: ASRock Fatal1ty X99X Killer ATX LGA2011-3 Motherboard ($209.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($53.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $678.96
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-11-24 08:01 EST-0500

 

[DMMag]

Awesome thanks man. I've only the experience I had yesterday with overclocking, and it's causing my comp to just shut down. >.< Think it's my thermaltake PSU causing issues though. Not sure if I will be, but very interesting. I'll be going for Win7 Pro and 32 gb of RAM, with a new PSU, so between those three, that is going to eat roughly $360 of my budget alone I am thinking.

I think my Cooler master CPU fan I have on my Vishera would work for the I7-4790? If so, that saves me $50. Definitely gives me options, and various ways to go when I am looking at the incoming sales. Appreciate that.

 

[RobCrezz]

If you arent bothered about overclocking then go for the Xeon E3 1231 v3 i mentioned, it basically is the i7 4790.

Your cpu cooler should be suitable, but not for any overclocking.

 

[Murissokah]

Lets say I am running 5 different programs. Does my CPU lay out the load of the programs between cores to spread the load? Or does each program start on a single core, with only spillover if the application is multi-threaded? IE, if I have a program open that is going to eat 10%, another 5%, another 20%, and another 11% of a Core's load. Will the CPU automatically distribute these to Cores 1, 2, 3 and 4 to share the load? Or will it pile the whole 46% worth onto a single core?

Each CPU will be capable of handling a given amount of simultaneous threads depending on its hardware (8 for Vishera, for instance). A typical computer have thousands of open threads at any given time, but only one or two will really need to execute simultaneously (meaning the rest can wait for their turn with no perceivable impact for the user). The operating system task scheduler will assign each software thread to a CPU hardware thread, and this means a CPU with more threads can work more threads simultaneously without having to make any of those programs wait for a free CPU thread (pretty obvious).

Here's where it gets a little more complicated. Intel uses something called Simultaneous Multi-Threading (commercially known as Hyerthreading). The CPU needs to be able to fetch more instructions in the same amount of time, and needs a larger register to work with that. What it gains is that it will be able to use the execution cores more efficiently. Think of this as in a construction site, where instead of adding more workers to get the job done faster, you could add a second supervisor to make sure nobody is idle. This would be more efficient, but there is only so much this workers can do. AMD has more workers, so it can actually do more, but only if you have that many tasks to work on.

The thing is, there are still very little scenarios where you need to run four or more highly demanding and latency-sensitive threads at the same time, which makes the single-threaded performance on the Intel side much more important.

Besides all this, the one thing that really matters is whether or not you need this extra performance, and how much would you benefit from it against how much it would cost you. Considering your scenario, I would stick to Vishera until a full platform switch is easier on your budget, because frankly, there is hardly any reason to need anything faster than Vishera. CPU development has been focused on mobile for a while and software adapts to that. Because of this CPUs from five years ago are still more than capable of handling current workloads.

 

[DMMag]

Essentially, I'll be doing a lot of multi-tasking, but rarely is more than 3-6 things actually in use at the time. Tons of Chrome tabs, music, voice chat, MIRC, notepad, and I'll have my 3D VTT I am getting my hands on in a few weeks. That will be my go-to, and I've been told anything from 2004 on, just with tons of RAM is what I need for that. I need a new OS to be able to get above 16gb of RAM which I currently have.

New PSU, new OS, new case, I'm just looking at this as the perfect time for *me* to get as much new as possible to move forward. If my Vishera should be able to handle my tasks, then I can keep that. It just seems, everything I've heard it's time to dump AMD. I don't like the thought of being in debt through summer and having my Vishera I just paid for sit idle though. Just a ton of options to go over, and the cost factor is a major factor. Being ignorant of the nitty gritty, and no experience with Intel, all of the info you folks have given me is helping me get a grasp of things though. I truly appreciate it. I'll have to see whether the ball and chain will crucify me if I drop $900 more on this instead of a quick and dirty $200.

 

[Murissokah]

I'll have to see whether the ball and chain will crucify me if I drop $900 more on this instead of a quick and dirty $200.

Hahaha, always comes down to that. In short, will switching to Intel give you better performance? Yes, considerably. Is it necessary for your workload? Definitely no.

 

[DMMag]

Yeaah. Being in debt, with the Evil Eye, and not getting any through June might not be worth a performance boost if I don't need it. Also, I'm a newb at system building. Having an "Oh god, what have I done?!!" cushion in case I need to replace a part I break would be useful. I suppose it all comes down to, whether I see crazy deals in the next week. Oh I hate waiting.

You folks have been great at getting me informed for this decision, and I thank you truly. Much appreciated.

 

[junkeymonkey]

'' Trying to gather the differences between how the two companies word things.''

heres how AMD worded it

''What has hurt AMD is a big bet on a Bulldozer architecture — in which two CPU integer cores share a floating-point unit and other components — that simply didn’t work out. “Everyone knows that Bulldozer was not the game-changing part when it was introduced three years ago,” then-CEO Rory Read said at a Deutsche Bank event. “We have to live with that for four years [through 2015]. .

http://www.zdnet.com/article/amd-says-carrizo-is-coming-but-real-action-may-be-in-2016/

 

[DMMag]

Yeah, I had a friend who swore she knew what she was doing help me pick parts for this machine in 2012. My CPU blew in Feb, I got the Vishera and the new GPU in March. I'm now in the need for a new PSU, as no one bothered to point out the one she picked for me is trash, and likely caused my CPU failure, and all of my BSoD/Resets I'm getting. I got a new case because the local techs fried the wiring in my CM Storm Scout (No more fans >.<), and I'm not an electrician.

Now, I am being informed, AMD is a dead end, after investing 14 months worth of spending money paying off of the debt for this system, that essentially is a dead end. I grabbed that $200 960 gb SSD to at least help speed up something on my system, never having used one before, anything is an upgrade there. Plus, a new UPS, mine is not able to handle the juice that my system draws any longer, and a new PSU. Between these three, I'm looking at nearly $500, on top of Christmas stuff I've already charged. $900 debt currently, plus UPS, PSU, and whatever *else* I get that all needs to pay off. On top of the last 14-6 months of paying off what I already have been using. Frustration abounds.

I need something that I can build now, and use long term. Yet, my home business is bound to something that I won't get my hands on for a few more weeks. AMD is a dead end, and I can't even buy one of their motherboards now and wait for the ZEN. It'll be useless! So, I either live with what I have, hope for the best, or throw myself further into debt until June/July to get an Intel. Which, lol, that article or something like it would have been great to have had my friend I trusted with my build have shown me when I shelled out all of this money in 2012. Frustration abounds.

Really though, given my situation, a switch to Intel might be my best bet. At least I'll be buying a motherboard with DDR 4 RAM which has the capability for an upgrade in a year or two, if I need to sit on it. It's just a lot of money up front, for a largely horizontal move. What I can afford now, isn't *much* better than what I have. I then shelve what I have, and what I have spent so far is wasted. No bueno either way I go.

 

[junkeymonkey]

like I said I feel now just go with a z97 board and a haswell chip old or refresh they support near everything no usb issues no os issues supports most all 1150 i5 - i7 -and xeon and run that till she drops . - I don't see where you would be going wrong [of course theres all ways that chance in getting a lemon part ]

skylake has is issues and too new untried haswell been around and proven ??

good luck

 

[amc2002]

I ditched amd [AM3+] for intel for my first time ever in 15 years and cant say it was the wrong move [z87/4670] way better satisfied and less ''bugs/ minoe issues I all ways seemed to have with am3+ [opinion]

not to say intel is the greatest but beats that or any of the AM3+ builds and upgrades I did .. looking back I was just throwing good money after bad

this z87 I not touched it from first fire up in over a year yet still on first release bios smooth and stable all day every day so far

amds motto seems to be ''next year''

I just did the same. I had been buying AMD for maybe the last decade? Four or five different machines for different things (a NAS, gaming rig, VMware machine, etc.).

When it came time to upgrade my gaming rig (I already had a 660Ti, but was still using an old AMD 9950 and DDR2), I just couldn't bring myself to do it. The i5 I bought wasn't terribly expensive ($179), it's a pretty recent one, and the Z97 motherboard I picked up was so easy to configure and get stable the first try. Also got a decent PSU. I also can't believe how quiet the Intel fans are. I think all told I spent around $350-400 or so on the proc, MB, ram and PSU.

No regrets at all.

 

[Steve Istvan Horvath]

The next AMD is coming next year, but will use a new socket, AM4, DDR4 ram, so it won't be compatible with those things you currently have anyways. There probably won't be anymore AM3+ CPU's.

Hi! I read your reply to the question posted about "stick with the AMD for a new rebuild," in which you wrote that the AMD3+CPU won't be available any longer. First, where did you learn about this information? Second, if this information is indeed correct, then will it drive down or up the cost of the AMD3+ CPUs? I too am planning to build a new system next year, and I am happy with my 6 core AMD3+ CPU. But, if it won't be available, then I would have to go with another new CPU instead of this model for a Windows 10 OS. In closing, I detest Intell because I had nothing but problems with it from my first built PC a decade ago. Since then I became and have been an AMD user.