Question Cooling help for a noob

[tinpanalley]

I've got a CoolerMaster HAF-912. I want some cooler air circulating through this case. It's not cramped in there but I want to add more airflow. How do I determine what kind of fans are best? I currently have nothing but 120mm fans in the front and back bays. I didn't even know I needed cooling until this past week when I decided to look into it because my system felt warm.

The system is a B450 Tomahawk Max with a Ryzen 5 3600 cooled right now with nothing more than its stock fan.
Also in the case is an MSI GTX 1660 Super.
I curently idle at about 57C and games peak at about 84C.

I'm thinking of getting the following...
exhaust - 1 120mm out the back
exhaust - 2 120mm out the top
intake - 1 140mm from the side
intake - 2 140mm from the front
And replacing the Ryzen's stock cooling with a Arctic Freezer eSports Duo.

Does that all sound like I should be ok cooling-wise? I know very little about CPU cooling specs and brands but the bit I've learned this week led me to this one. Any thoughts, recommendations?

 

[Lafong]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJaJeP7bylE


Above is a review of that Arctic Freezer. Pretty good value at it's price point.

You are thinking of buying 6 fans.

Can you spend 50 or 150?

Are you pretty much unconcerned with noise level? If noise is a factor, you'd probably want the fans to spin down at 1200 or lower.

You'll have to make some compromise between temps, expense, and noise.....and probably some degree of experimentation.

6 fans may not be preferable to 4....depending on testing and tradeoffs.

84 when gaming isn't outlandish, but 57 at idle is fairly high...but could be perfectly normal for your case and your current cooling setup.

 

[tinpanalley]

You are thinking of buying 6 fans.
Can you spend 50 or 150?
Are you pretty much unconcerned with noise level? If noise is a factor, you'd probably want the fans to spin down at 1200 or lower.
You'll have to make some compromise between temps, expense, and noise.....and probably some degree of experimentation.
6 fans may not be preferable to 4....depending on testing and tradeoffs.
84 when gaming isn't outlandish, but 57 at idle is fairly high...but could be perfectly normal for your case and your current cooling setup.

Spend is less important than properly protecting for the long term what I've already bought in parts.
I want quiet as well. How do I determine what fan will create what amount of noise? I was under the impression the fans I was looking at were relatively silent.
6 vs 4... I realise there's a point of diminishing returns when adding more fans. I think 2 front, 1 top, 1 back could probably be enough.
Any opinions on how you'd set the fans up on this case? I was gonna go Arctic P12 and P14 PWM PST.

 

[Lafong]

I want quiet as well. How do I determine what fan will create what amount of noise?

I was under the impression the fans I was looking at were relatively silent.

I think 2 front, 1 top, 1 back could probably be enough.
Any opinions on how you'd set the fans up on this case? I was gonna go Arctic P12 and P14 PWM PST.

There are fan reviews that can give you a decibel reading, but they have limited value....might be OK for a general ballpark estimate but I wouldn't take it as gospel.

Pretty tough for the human ear to detect differences of 3 db. As you get up above 5 db differences, you'll be able to detect one fan from another, but it's still anybody's guess that you would find fan A more objectionable than fan B.

Fans can have unique characteristics that might bother you but not bother someone else.

At 1500 rpm, they'd all be audible at 3 or 4 feet, so the idea is to spin them at as low rpm as possible. 140 mm fans can move the same air at a lower rpm than 120 mm, so lean toward 140 if you fan mount will accept them.

I don't know anything about your case, but 2 front intake and 1 back exhaust is a good starting point. Top panel fans may or may not help. Side panel fans may or may not help. Experiment.

Hard to say where to draw the line. Do you want to drive that 57 down to 52 or 42? At what expense? With what noise? There is some unavoidable degree of guesswork.

It could be that your temps would be significantly lower with the cooler change only......using your existing fans.

If quiet is your goal, many would try to steer you to Noctua hardware. I use it, but there are certainly other good choices. I have heard good things about some Arctic products, but don't follow them closely.

 

[Zerk2012]

I've got a CoolerMaster HAF-912. I want some cooler air circulating through this case. It's not cramped in there but I want to add more airflow. How do I determine what kind of fans are best? I currently have nothing but 120mm fans in the front and back bays. I didn't even know I needed cooling until this past week when I decided to look into it because my system felt warm.

The system is a B450 Tomahawk Max with a Ryzen 5 3600 cooled right now with nothing more than its stock fan.
Also in the case is an MSI GTX 1660 Super.
I curently idle at about 57C and games peak at about 84C.

I'm thinking of getting the following...
exhaust - 1 120mm out the back
exhaust - 2 120mm out the top
intake - 1 140mm from the side
intake - 2 140mm from the front
And replacing the Ryzen's stock cooling with a Arctic Freezer eSports Duo.

Does that all sound like I should be ok cooling-wise? I know very little about CPU cooling specs and brands but the bit I've learned this week led me to this one. Any thoughts, recommendations?

Remove the center drive cage and add a decent CPU cooler should be all you need to do.

 

[Countess_C]

With six fans your case will collect more dust then the temperature will drop.

A better CPU cooler would do the trick. Two intake fans in the front and one exhaust fan in the back. And you don't need expensive fans. The Fractal Design X2 GP-14 (or GP-12 for the 120mm) are very good and quiet fans and not that expensive.

Edit: It seems that the case supports 1x120mm in the back and 2x120mm in the front.

 

[Countess_C]

One way to keep the fan noise down is to cut out the honeycomb fan grill at the back of the case and replace it with a wire grill like this one:

 

[tinpanalley]

Remove the center drive cage and add a decent CPU cooler should be all you need to do.

Unfortunately I can't, I need it for drives.

Two intake fans in the front and one exhaust fan in the back.....
Edit: It seems that the case supports 1x120mm in the back and 2x120mm in the front.

Actually, according to my manual I'm pretty sure I can get two 120 or 140mm in the front.

So the general consensus here seems to be that two in the front and one in the back is sufficient but if you end up with two more to play around with the top and side it's not a bad thing.

There's a great video I watched online that did tests that proved that once you go beyond 2 front, 1 back, 1 top, you start hitting a wall of diminishing returns. I have asked around online elsewhere and the setup that uses 2-3 intake (front and side, sometimes even replacing the 2 front with a single 200mm) and 3 exhaust (2 top, 1 back) seems very popular. Why are people giving me those recommendations for so many fans, then? And why does it lead to more dust?

Finally, 140mm will be slightly more silent than 120mm, no? Or have I been told that wrongly as well?

 

[Lafong]

A 140 should be noisier than an otherwise identical 120 at the same rpm under identical circumstances.........but maybe not audibly so. But quieter when moving the same amount of air....at a lower rpm. The 140 doesn't have to spin as fast to move the same air. It's not a major difference.

I wouldn't pay much attention to someone who says "you need X fans" rather than X minus 1 or X plus 1......because they likely can't duplicate your exact conditions (ambient temps, case, CPU and graphics card load, etc) and don't know your tolerance for noise or your temperature goals. You are the foremost authority on all of that.

Plenty of people will always put 6 fans in a 6 fan mount case....often for RGB reasons alone. Whether that is "necessary" is beside the point.

Countess C's comment above is valid. A bare fan held in your hand may be totally inaudible at 12 inches, but quite audible at 12 inches when it is blowing against something....like a fan grill.

Re dust, positive pressure, negative pressure, etc. You might look here for some clues:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NYHC3DXynM


Case design has a lot to do with dust levels. Some cases are a lot more "air tight" than others. You can juggle your fan setup in an attempt to deal with that.

 

[Countess_C]

Unfortunately I can't, I need it for drives.
Actually, according to my manual I'm pretty sure I can get two 120 or 140mm in the front.

I saw that the HAF 912 was made in different versions, so it's possible that yours can take 140mm fans in the front. It's best to be sure, though, and it should be easy to check if it has mounting holes for 140mm.

So the general consensus here seems to be that two in the front and one in the back is sufficient but if you end up with two more to play around with the top and side it's not a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing, but it's not worth it unless you don't mind more noise and spending more money. And it's difficult to know the optimal air flow in all the different cases.

There's a great video I watched online that did tests that proved that once you go beyond 2 front, 1 back, 1 top, you start hitting a wall of diminishing returns. I have asked around online elsewhere and the setup that uses 2-3 intake (front and side, sometimes even replacing the 2 front with a single 200mm) and 3 exhaust (2 top, 1 back) seems very popular. Why are people giving me those recommendations for so many fans, then? And why does it lead to more dust?

Sometimes recommendations are like "this works great for me!", but the temperature could have been about the same with one or two fans less.

Negative pressure in a case can lead to it sucking in dust through every opening, so lots of people recommend positive pressure. But intake fans suck dust in too, but less so if they have dust filters.

Finally, 140mm will be slightly more silent than 120mm, no? Or have I been told that wrongly as well?

In principle a 140mm fan can be more silent than a 120mm because it doesn't have to rotate as fast to move the same amount of air. Many fans are pretty silent in themselves, but they can still produce noise through vibrations, so how they are mounted is important. And the standard honeycomb grills produce lots of turbulence noise when the fans are spinning fast.

 

[Countess_C]

Like you see in my signature, I have a Fractal Design Define R5 case, and I installed Fractal Design X2 GP-14 140mm fans, two in the front and one in the back. My CPU is a Ryzen 7 3700X with a Noctua NH-U12S.

It's not the best case for air flow, but most of the time I have the case's manual fan controller set on low (5V, I think) and the CPU temperature is fine, 38-45ºC idle, and it drops 2-3 degrees when I run the case fans at max.

The Arctic Freezer eSports Duo cooler should be more effective than mine according to tests.

I could mount more fans on the side, bottom and top of the case, but there is no need to.

I think your idle temperature would drop at least 15º with the better CPU cooler and 2x140mm fans in the front. With more fans on the side and top maybe it would drop another 1-2 degrees, so not much.

 

[tinpanalley]

most of the time I have the case's manual fan controller set on low

Another thing I need to understand is when people talk about manipulating the fan's speeds, max speed, etc. I was under the impression that a PWM PST fan would just regulate itself as necessary. Is that not correct?

 

[Lafong]

Another thing I need to understand is when people talk about manipulating the fan's speeds, max speed, etc. I was under the impression that a PWM PST fan would just regulate itself as necessary. Is that not correct?

You manipulate speeds via "fan curves" in the BIOS.

Some BIOSes are more user friendly than others, but all should give you some control.

You would control at what temp a fan should ramp up to a certain %. Maybe half throttle till 50; 70 percent throttle at 60 degrees; full throttle at 75 degrees. Whatever strikes you as an appropriate balance between temps and noise.

 

[Countess_C]

Another thing I need to understand is when people talk about manipulating the fan's speeds, max speed, etc. I was under the impression that a PWM PST fan would just regulate itself as necessary. Is that not correct?

Yeah, you can set the fan curves for PWM fans through the motherboard BIOS and let it control the fan speeds for you. Or third party software. My case has a manual fan controller I prefer to use, because... it's fun.

 

[tinpanalley]

It's not a bad thing, but it's not worth it unless you don't mind more noise and spending more money.

You know what makes this decision more annoying? The Arctics I want, and frankly every brand, make a 5-pack the cheapest option. So buying individual fans is way more expensive, buying a 3 pack is better, but buying a 5-pack is an awesome deal.

 

[Zerk2012]

Unfortunately I can't, I need it for drives.
Actually, according to my manual I'm pretty sure I can get two 120 or 140mm in the front.

So the general consensus here seems to be that two in the front and one in the back is sufficient but if you end up with two more to play around with the top and side it's not a bad thing.

There's a great video I watched online that did tests that proved that once you go beyond 2 front, 1 back, 1 top, you start hitting a wall of diminishing returns. I have asked around online elsewhere and the setup that uses 2-3 intake (front and side, sometimes even replacing the 2 front with a single 200mm) and 3 exhaust (2 top, 1 back) seems very popular. Why are people giving me those recommendations for so many fans, then? And why does it lead to more dust?

Finally, 140mm will be slightly more silent than 120mm, no? Or have I been told that wrongly as well?

The drive bay means almost nothing. video cards can run 84C easy you can also use MSI afterburner to adjust the fan curve.

The CPU temp just to be honest the stock coolers just SUX get a decent cooler and you have no problems.
.
When I was using those cases I would put a 200mm in the front(hard to find now) and a single 120mm in the back and never had a heat problem.

EDIT your using fairly low to mid parts just replace the CPU cooler and you should be good.

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/sYKKHx/scythe-mugen-5-s-5168-cfm-cpu-cooler-scmg-5100w

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/tW38TW/phanteks-case-fan-phf200spbbk

 

[Countess_C]

You know what makes this decision more annoying? The Arctics I want, and frankly every brand, make a 5-pack the cheapest option. So buying individual fans is way more expensive, buying a 3 pack is better, but buying a 5-pack is an awesome deal.

Just checking: Are you thinking of the Artic P14/P12 PWM PST fans? They are high static pressure fans, and are better for heatsinks and radiators than as case fans. There are other fans that are optimised for airflow and work better as case fans since they move the same amount of air at almost half the rpm.

Artic P14 PWM PST RGB: 1900 rpm, Airflow: 68,9 cfm Static pressure: 2 mmH2O Noise: 24,5 dB

Fractal Design X2 GP-14: 1000 rpm, Airflow: 68,4 cfm, Static Pressure: 0,71 mmH2O Noise: 18,9 dB <<< Very good! But not PWM.

Noctua NF-A14 PWM: 1500 rpm, Airflow: 82,5 cfm, Static Pressure: 2,08 mmH2O. Noise: 24,6 dB

Noctua NF-P14s redux PWM, 1200 rpm, Airflow: 64,9 cfm, Static Pressure: 1,29 mmH2O. Noise: 19,6 dB <<< Very good, and PWM.

 

[tinpanalley]

Just checking: Are you thinking of the Artic P14/P12 PWM PST fans? They are high static pressure fans, and are better for heatsinks and radiators than as case fans. There are other fans that are optimised for airflow and work better as case fans since they move the same amount of air at almost half the rpm.

Artic P14 PWM PST RGB: 1900 rpm, Airflow: 68,9 cfm Static pressure: 2 mmH2O Noise: 24,5 dB

Fractal Design X2 GP-14: 1000 rpm, Airflow: 68,4 cfm, Static Pressure: 0,71 mmH2O Noise: 18,9 dB <<< Very good! But not PWM.

Noctua NF-A14 PWM: 1500 rpm, Airflow: 82,5 cfm, Static Pressure: 2,08 mmH2O. Noise: 24,6 dB

Noctua NF-P14s redux PWM, 1200 rpm, Airflow: 64,9 cfm, Static Pressure: 1,29 mmH2O. Noise: 19,6 dB <<< Very good, and PWM.

Yeah, that's what I had mentioned. Since nobody said they were a bad idea, I figured they were ok.
It's these ones: Arctic ACFAN00137A P12 PWM PST Value Pack - Pressure-Optimized 120 mm Fan with PWM and PST (PWM Sharing Technology), Black https://a.co/d/7aGkhPE

So tell me again why they're not ideal and why I need something else?
Oh, and could it be in fans that don't have RGB lights? I can't stand them. I'd prefer they didn't have any. I would love to figure out how to turn them off on my mobo and gpu.

 

[Countess_C]

Yeah, that's what I had mentioned. Since nobody said they were a bad idea, I figured they were ok.
It's these ones: Arctic ACFAN00137A P12 PWM PST Value Pack - Pressure-Optimized 120 mm Fan with PWM and PST (PWM Sharing Technology), Black https://a.co/d/7aGkhPE

So tell me again why they're not ideal and why I need something else?
Oh, and could it be in fans that don't have RGB lights? I can't stand them. I'd prefer they didn't have any. I would love to figure out how to turn them off on my mobo and gpu.

Those are high static pressure fans. They are made to push air straight through heatsinks and radiators so the heat is removed more effectively. Airflow fans are better for cases because they move more air at lower speeds than pressure-optimised fans.

The Arctic fans would work as case fans, but they would have to run at faster rpm to be effective, and cause more noise. On the other hand, maybe they don't have to run that fast most of the time anyway. Your case will have a good airflow, and the new CPU cooler will do most of the work to keep the CPU temperature down.

This is a typical case fan: https://www.amazon.ca/NF-S12B-redux...51660&sprefix=noctua+nf-s12a+,aps,189&sr=8-12

Non-PWM with 3 pins: https://www.amazon.ca/NF-S12B-redux...51741&sprefix=noctua+nf-s12a+,aps,189&sr=8-33

Noctua is of course a premium brand, but there are other brands too. Just look for airflow-optimised fans.

 

[tinpanalley]

Those are high static pressure fans. They are made to push air straight through heatsinks and radiators so the heat is removed more effectively. Airflow fans are better for cases because they move more air at lower speeds than pressure-optimised fans.

The Arctic fans would work as case fans, but they would have to run at faster rpm to be effective, and cause more noise. On the other hand, maybe they don't have to run that fast most of the time anyway. Your case will have a good airflow, and the new CPU cooler will do most of the work to keep the CPU temperature down.

This is a typical case fan: https://www.amazon.ca/NF-S12B-redux-1200-PWM-Performance-Cooling/dp/B00KF7PPY4/ref=sr_1_12?crid=1V1PW2KJGQZ9X&keywords=Noctua+NF-S12A&qid=1661351660&sprefix=noctua+nf-s12a+,aps,189&sr=8-12

Non-PWM with 3 pins: https://www.amazon.ca/NF-S12B-redux-1200-Performance-Cooling-1200RPM/dp/B00KF7R49S/ref=sr_1_33?crid=1V1PW2KJGQZ9X&keywords=Noctua+NF-S12A&qid=1661351741&sprefix=noctua+nf-s12a+,aps,189&sr=8-33

Noctua is of course a premium brand, but there are other brands too. Just look for airflow-optimised fans.

Ok... So, for the ones that I got to do what they do best they need to run faster, and therefore waste more energy than what I need. So it's buying a computer to use as a calculator.
So I wanted ideally a 3 pack or 5 pack. I'll look at the ones you recommended.

 

[Lafong]

Ok... So, for the ones that I got to do what they do best they need to run faster, and therefore waste more energy than what I need. So it's buying a computer to use as a calculator.
So I wanted ideally a 3 pack or 5 pack. I'll look at the ones you recommended.

If you have a good CPU tower cooler that has reasonably high static pressure fans blowing on it, you may easily find that it does such a good job that agonizing over case fans is well out into diminishing returns.

So far out that it wouldn't make much difference which case fans you used.....you could spin them at very low rpm (under 1000 somewhere) where nearly any 120 mm fan is all but inaudible.

Of course, if budget allows, do all the examination, fiddling and testing you want with various fans....Noctua Redux, Noctua A series, Noctua S series, Scythe, Arctic, etc.

The Noctua F12 is designed for attachment to a cooler. I use one very successfully as a case exhaust at 500 rpm only because I had already had a slightly used one on hand and saw no need to go the extra expense for a Noctua A or S "case" fan.

The point being you're down into highly granular nuances that can't be accurately predicted and likely would make little to no difference even after thorough hands-on testing.

PC case fans use very little electricity......2 or 3 watts. Four of them would cost me about 3 dollars a year in electricity if on 7 days a week, 24 hours a day.

 

[Countess_C]

Ok... So, for the ones that I got to do what they do best they need to run faster, and therefore waste more energy than what I need. So it's buying a computer to use as a calculator.
So I wanted ideally a 3 pack or 5 pack. I'll look at the ones you recommended.

If you already have the Arctic fans, use them. It's just that if you are looking to buy new fans it might be a good idea to buy proper case fans that are more effective at lower speeds/noise.

So far out that it wouldn't make much difference which case fans you used.....you could spin them at very low rpm (under 1000 somewhere) where nearly any 120 mm fan is all but inaudible.

Mine Fractal Design X2 GP-14 run at 5V most of the time and they are very quiet.

The Noctua F12 is designed for attachment to a cooler. I use one very successfully as a case exhaust at 500 rpm only because I had already had a slightly used one on hand and saw no need to go the extra expense for a Noctua A or S "case" fan.

Those fans have about the same (max) airflow anyway. F12= 54,9 cfm, S12= 59 cfm, A12= 55,7 cfm

 

[tinpanalley]

It's just that if you are looking to buy new fans it might be a good idea to buy proper case fans that are more effective at lower speeds/noise.

Well, I think I'd rather get something that IS capable of being more effective at lower speeds and noise since the PC will live at that level more often than not. Besides the CPU cooler is on its way and that can still do its job fine while I wait for other fans to arrive while returning the Arctics.
I'll look at the others you mentioned before. I imagine the ones you mentioned are available in P12 120mm format? I just wish the people who had recommended me these had mentioned that issue.
I was recommended the Arctics, the Noctuas that are beige and brown, and someone else said, "just get any basic fan, it doesn't matter". But I liked the Arctics because they seemed to fit thedescription of what I needed and they came in an affordable pack.

Side question: can you turn rgb features off on all fans?

 

[tinpanalley]

Any thoughts on the ID-COOLING SE-226-XT I just found?

 

[Lafong]

Single tower; 50 bucks; 154 mm tall.

Does it fit in your case? Guessing it would, but did not confirm.

Never heard of it. May be perfectly OK for your purposes.

Did you choose it based on price or because nothing else was available at your source or?

Look online for reviews. Read the comments from any owners.