News Crypto Miners Fool Nvidia's Anti-Mining Limiter With $6 HDMI Dummy Plug

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blacknemesist

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Well, if ain't bought a GPU yet and considering they are now estimating the shortage to continue through Q3 you might as well completely skip the 3xxx series and 6xxx series unless you really need to upgrade from an extremely outdated machine or your gpu died.

Its just sad to see how many chips are going for crypto crap that could have been used for other purposes and so many people having to buy extreme expensive hardware just to do their jobs.
 
There has to be a clear solution in hardware to have a chance at this. Software is not going to cut it. Two distinct lines of parts going out the door.
They should be making ASICs for mining that blow the doors off a GPU. It's like, the first rule of business. Hey, you see all these people want a thing? Sell them that thing. It's not that F'n difficult a concept to understand. We've been in this stupid Crypto fad for years now and no one has responded to this massive demand in the market. Design and fabricate a mining ASIC for the masses so we gamers can get back to gaming, please. I just want to use my Index at 144hz ffs. Is that too much to ask?

Ether was created because some miner did not like when bitcoin was dominated by ASIC.
 
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Jim90

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Three issues here:

  • Any (cough) 'solution' to EXISTING GPU's HAVE to operate through software (firmware/driver/etc) - irrespective of whether (cough) hardware checks are added e.g. is a monitor attached, lol. Guess the issue with that route?
  • Any hardware solution will require a new line of GPU's.
  • 'Dedicated' miners are, at some time, going to want to upgrade those cards for any new cards offering significant throughput improvement. Guess the issue they will have if they were to purchase 'dedicated' miner cards? Guess, therefore, which cards they are always going to go after?
 

VforV

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most people know nvidia do it for PR. Do it for gamer? Don't joke about that but for some people they just glad if you can make miner scratching their heads more need to jump through loops and holes just to make things works as it should be. Ultimately nvidia just want to make segmentation for mining market.


Doesn't matter which company are lying. Both are eyeing miner as a cash grab right now. Hence AMD announcing they will make more mining specific cards based on navi 10. Their 7nm capacity already unable to keep up with their current product demand. If they really do it for gamer they should allocate more 7nm capacity towards RDNA 2 manufacturing not make more navi 10 to be sold to miner.
We just got the news a few days ago that AMD will become the 2nd largest customer of TSMC in 2021. They are increasing their wafer allocation a lot, so they will produce & sell more products. That being said, I don't like the dedicated mining GPUs either, taking allocation from gaming GPUs to make them for mining only... meh.
 
We just got the news a few days ago that AMD will become the 2nd largest customer of TSMC in 2021. They are increasing their wafer allocation a lot, so they will produce & sell more products. That being said, I don't like the dedicated mining GPUs either, taking allocation from gaming GPUs to make them for mining only... meh.

they were second largest but there is almost 500 company that fab their chip at TSMC. there were charts that divide TSMC revenue based on it's client. so far the rank are more or less like this:

apple 25.4%
AMD 9.2%
Mediatek 8.2%
Broadcom 8.1%
Qualcomm 7.6%
Intel 7.2%
Nvidia 5.8%

source: https://seekingalpha.com/article/44...rtake-taiwan-semi-despite-massive-capex-spend

AMD is second but they are not that "large" versus other player like mediatek and boradcomm. and an interesting part is even intel end up increasing the revenue share. meaning they also steadily making more products at TSMC. and this is what we fear. TSMC might use their position to force for higher wafer price.
 

VforV

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they were second largest but there is almost 500 company that fab their chip at TSMC. there were charts that divide TSMC revenue based on it's client. so far the rank are more or less like this:

apple 25.4%
AMD 9.2%
Mediatek 8.2%
Broadcom 8.1%
Qualcomm 7.6%
Intel 7.2%
Nvidia 5.8%

source: https://seekingalpha.com/article/44...rtake-taiwan-semi-despite-massive-capex-spend

AMD is second but they are not that "large" versus other player like mediatek and boradcomm. and an interesting part is even intel end up increasing the revenue share. meaning they also steadily making more products at TSMC. and this is what we fear. TSMC might use their position to force for higher wafer price.
I know and I agree. I was just saying they are increasing their output of products, that AMD 9.2% share is bigger than it was lat year, so we will see more products in 2021 compared to 2020. It just takes 3-4 moths for new orders to get to stores.

It's not doubling the production, but it is better and probably most they can do at the moment.
 

spongiemaster

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I know and I agree. I was just saying they are increasing their output of products, that AMD 9.2% share is bigger than it was lat year, so we will see more products in 2021 compared to 2020. It just takes 3-4 moths for new orders to get to stores.

It's not doubling the production, but it is better and probably most they can do at the moment.
Whatever increase they come up with will have no impact on the GPU market. A wafer of CPU's will generate significantly more revenue/profits than a wafer of GPU's, so as long as AMD can't keep up with CPU demand, that's where they are going to funnel their capacity. With Rocket Lake about to release, AMD has to fill out the rest of their 5000 stack because they aren't going to be competitive enough in the midrange and lower with their current 3000 series. There goes all their increased capacity. In this current market, GPU's are an after thought to AMD. As of late January, nearly 50,000 Ampere GPU's had been sold on Ebay and StockX, compare to less than 3,500 6000 series GPU's. That's a nearly 15:1 ratio advantage to Nvidia. Nvidia still can't keep up. AMD could double their GPU production and it wouldn't change anything.
 
Well the problem with that is that crypto-crappers will still buy other single, double or 2,5 as long as the investment in the gpu is returned with an index of confidence that is acceptable. The only way right now to prevent cryptos from getting gaming stuff is to solder everything to the MB and actually have the GPU properly locked by the bios and design a similar handshake between the MB and GPU so no instructions reach the GPU that are considered mining.
Truth is that nvidia just wants to sell and retailers and everyone is the pipeline from manufacturer to the end-client don't care who will use it as long as they get to jackup prices and still not have enough supply for the demand.
You are safer buying a PS5 or XBOX or join the nvidia now program at least until this BS continues.

That is the problem and why you have to sour the GPU hash rate on newer cards.

NVIDIA took it a step further and opened up old nodes specifically for mining. They still sell all their new node stock and OLD node stock thereby maximizing profits. I have to give them a hat-tip for that strategy.

The old nodes are less profitable because of the higher power requirements / hash. But they are still profitable. And NVIDIA can makes tons more of the old node than they can the new. So if they ruin the hash rate enough on all 30 series, miners will have no choice but to regress to 20 series to mine again, freeing up stock to be sold as gaming cards that can't be profitable as mining cards. That's a raw throughput increase with higher margins on older nodes, while still maintaining mind share with gamers.

The ONLY reason why card prices are so high is because of miners. People don't care what a card cost because they think mining will pay for it, even if it's $2,000. The ONLY people affected are pure gamers. This two cases to support this:

1. Months before the mining crash, AMD and NVIDIA both CRANKED production. Prices were still at all time highs as bitcoin complexity sored, and etherium prices went up. HOWEVER after the crash, there was a glut of supply, and prices crashed. I bought a NEW RX580 8 gig for $130! That's an old node by then and production capacity was high. Now today you are lucky to find that at $750 for the same card with similar production capacity.

2. Turing sales were vastly below NVIDIA's expectations. They were disappointed in sales, but Turing had the worst MSRP/performance ratio in a long long time. This forced NVIDIA to roll out 1660ti's and below but even that didn't sell as well they hoped. This was all during mining lows. This is more subjective proof that true gamers who don't mind will bulk at the price.

3. A recent poll on youtube (while not scientific) was talking about 6700XT and how it stacks up to NVIDIA 3070. And the last option was "Pricing is so out of whack, I could care less" 68% of people clicked this button of 5 choices.

THAT is a bad sign and it will bite AMD and NVIDIA in the ass hard if Intel comes in with a good competitor and the mining boom stops. Once a user switches brands, they tend to stay with that brand. That is why retention is important. (Me I just look for the best value)

Rumor mill is everyone in the supply chain from Board partners, to distributors, to retail are adding on excess premiums to cash in right now. On the order of 30% or more margin each and why the pricing is so expensive at places like NewEgg/Amazon/Bestbuy. And they aren't fessing up because when you look greedy, it's bad for business. And they won't fess up either.

Covid isn't helping things because air freight cost is outrageous right now to offset passenger fare losses. So best you can do is wait for the slow boat from China (literally) to save cost. But you have to do really large batches of several dozen containers to keep cost down. That means a longer wait time between ships. Shipping companies like dealing with small customer base with large shipments because it helps streamline operations.

Both Steve and Linus made the argument that mining only cards contribute to eWaste. That's bull! Mining cards in general have a much shorter lifespan left after they are resold. Doesn't matter if you repaste them or not. And you will have to replace mined cards at a much higher rate than if you buy new! A typical card if used appropriately will last you 6+ years. A used mining card may last you 2 years if you are lucky. Power stages and caps just fail under constant use. Even solid state stuff. due to migration with switched supplies. It's an effect similar to venturi's effect with flow except with field collapse as high current is switched. And caps dry out. That means I would have to buy 3x's the mining cards to replace 1 new high end card. So why would you want to buy a used card with 2 years life for $700 when you can buy new for 6 years at $250? The economics of it just doesn't make sense for pure gamers.
 
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VforV

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Whatever increase they come up with will have no impact on the GPU market. A wafer of CPU's will generate significantly more revenue/profits than a wafer of GPU's, so as long as AMD can't keep up with CPU demand, that's where they are going to funnel their capacity. With Rocket Lake about to release, AMD has to fill out the rest of their 5000 stack because they aren't going to be competitive enough in the midrange and lower with their current 3000 series. There goes all their increased capacity. In this current market, GPU's are an after thought to AMD. As of late January, nearly 50,000 Ampere GPU's had been sold on Ebay and StockX, compare to less than 3,500 6000 series GPU's. That's a nearly 15:1 ratio advantage to Nvidia. Nvidia still can't keep up. AMD could double their GPU production and it wouldn't change anything.
Agreed, so where's the issue? It's not like AMD could suddenly overnight do impossible things... They are increasing the production as much as they can for a company of their size that does not own fabs.

I don't quite understand the criticism of AMD not selling more product, when there are clearly logical limitations of what can and cannot be done by them and with what they can work with...

Are people upset AMD is not as big as nvidia or intel? We all know they are not, yet they still fight against them as best as they can...

It's funny that the little guy is fighting 2 giants at the same time, while those 2 giants don't fight each other (yet), but only fight the little guy... Am I the only one that can appreciate the uneven fight AMD has here?

In no version of reality AMD not competing at all would be better... so they do it as good as they can. If they get bigger they can fight better, but getting bigger vs nvidia and intel is not easy, so we have this situation going on for a long time still.
 

InvalidError

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THAT is a bad sign and it will bite AMD and NVIDIA in the ass hard if Intel comes in with a good competitor and the mining boom stops. Once a user switches brands, they tend to stay with that brand.
Unless more governments follow India's lead with banning cryptop, crypto isn't going to disappear any time soon and I wouldn't pin my hopes of decently priced GPUs on that. If Xe is any good, it'll get snapped up by miners at a price roughly linear with its hash rate per watt relative to the leading GPUs.
 
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spongiemaster

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Agreed, so where's the issue? It's not like AMD could suddenly overnight do impossible things... They are increasing the production as much as they can for a company of their size that does not own fabs.

I don't quite understand the criticism of AMD not selling more product, when there are clearly logical limitations of what can and cannot be done by them and with what they can work with...

Are people upset AMD is not as big as nvidia or intel? We all know they are not, yet they still fight against them as best as they can...

It's funny that the little guy is fighting 2 giants at the same time, while those 2 giants don't fight each other (yet), but only fight the little guy... Am I the only one that can appreciate the uneven fight AMD has here?

In no version of reality AMD not competing at all would be better... so they do it as good as they can. If they get bigger they can fight better, but getting bigger vs nvidia and intel is not easy, so we have this situation going on for a long time still.
AMD is not in charge of the production of their chips, so being "the little guy" isn't relevant. TSMC who produces their chips is not a little guy. People like you were knocking Nvidia for going with Samsung for Ampere to save some money. Well, if Nvidia is getting more than 10 GPU's to every 1 for AMD, it looks like they made the right call. Nvidia still uses TSMC for their professional cards, so they didn't put all their eggs in one basket. AMD is certainly big enough that they could have split up their wafers need among multiple fabs, CPU's to TSMC, GPU's to Samsung, to give themselves more options.
 

husker

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Trying to engineer some kind of work-around to avoid basic supply and demand issues is going to either fail outright, or lead to a substandard product. Yes, it 'seems" possible but ultimately it will fail -- like a perpetual motion machine, or trying to lift yourself by pulling up on the bottom of the chair while sitting on it.
 

InvalidError

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AMD is not in charge of the production of their chips, so being "the little guy" isn't relevant.
AMD is in charge of forecasting its wafer needs and securing supply accordingly, similar to how it would be in charge of forecasting demand to make decisions about building or upgrading fabs if it still had its own. The combination of the pandemic and the resurgence of crypto however isn't something AMD could have foreseen long enough ahead of time to do anything about regardless of whether it manufactures though TSMC or its own fabs.
 
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spongiemaster

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AMD is in charge of forecasting its wafer needs and securing supply accordingly, similar to how it would be in charge of forecasting demand to make decisions about building or upgrading fabs if it still had its own. The combination of the pandemic and the resurgence of crypto however isn't something AMD could have foreseen long enough ahead of time to do anything about regardless of whether it manufactures though TSMC or its own fabs.
Nobody predicted it, but AMD seems to have missed the mark more than the competition. Mining has had no affect on CPU sales, and AMD is still struggling to meet demand there. How much has Covid really increased the demand for 12 and 16 core desktop CPU's? AMD should have been able to predict they would have no competition there from Intel when they were making these orders, and they should have known they would have the performance advantage based on Intel's roadmaps which would further drive up demand.
 
Unless more governments follow India's lead with banning cryptop, crypto isn't going to disappear any time soon and I wouldn't pin my hopes of decently priced GPUs on that. If Xe is any good, it'll get snapped up by miners at a price roughly linear with its hash rate per watt relative to the leading GPUs.

I will agree with you this is likely what will happen. But when you are an upstart in an established market, you kind of have to almost sell things at a loss to gain foothold. I know this is not Intel's MO. But for their graphics division to succeed, they need mindshare. That means making sure these cards get in the hands of gamers at a reasonable price.

Capturing mindshare will be difficult at best. Raja has a spotty history at best. And Intel has a history of dropping support for unprofitable divisions. How would you like to own 3D Xpoint right now? That's like 10x's worse with video cards that lose support. Gamers expect a card to be viable for 5+ years. (At least 3-4 years mainstream support) Only way intel will do this is with an uber attractive price and a way to keep them out of miners hands. (ie: No PO Box deliveries. 1 card/6 months to any given address/credit card)
 

InvalidError

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Mining has had no affect on CPU sales, and AMD is still struggling to meet demand there. How much has Covid really increased the demand for 12 and 16 core desktop CPU's?
AMD is mostly there on CPUs with the 5600X almost back to MSRP with the 5800X not very far behind. The 12-16 cores CPUs are made from the same CCDs and IODs as the 6-8 cores ones, they are merely higher-binned ones. AMD's inability to meet demand for 12+ cores parts is likely due to saving the very best dies for EPYC and most of what is left not making the cut for the 3900X-3950X.

I will agree with you this is likely what will happen. But when you are an upstart in an established market, you kind of have to almost sell things at a loss to gain foothold. I know this is not Intel's MO. But for their graphics division to succeed, they need mindshare. That means making sure these cards get in the hands of gamers at a reasonable price.
Well, if XPG hashes well and becomes known as Hashwell Lake, they will be mostly unobtainable regardless of how much Intel may want to put them in gamers' hands just like everything else currently is. On the plus side, that should also mean plenty of cheap second-hand GPUs 2-3 years down the line.

Intel has had its own in-house IGPs for something like 20 years and Xe is its new IGP thing, so I wouldn't worry about Xe going away any time soon even if Intel decides to scrap the discrete consumer variants.
 

spongiemaster

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I will agree with you this is likely what will happen. But when you are an upstart in an established market, you kind of have to almost sell things at a loss to gain foothold. I know this is not Intel's MO. But for their graphics division to succeed, they need mindshare. That means making sure these cards get in the hands of gamers at a reasonable price.
Because it is Intel, they really don't. It doesn't look like Intel is going to competing with the 3090/6900 XT's of the world out of the gate. I'm sure Intel will be fine bundling midrange GPU's with their CPU's to all their OEM's. They can be profitable without shipping anything to retail directly.
 

spongiemaster

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AMD is mostly there on CPUs with the 5600X almost back to MSRP with the 5800X not very far behind. The 12-16 cores CPUs are made from the same CCDs and IODs as the 6-8 cores ones, they are merely higher-binned ones. AMD's inability to meet demand for 12+ cores parts is likely due to saving the very best dies for EPYC and most of what is left not making the cut for the 3900X-3950X.
We're 4 1/2 months post release day, and 2 out of the 4 CPU's are still unobtainium, while one of the remaining 2 is almost down to MSRP. That's not almost there on the CPU side.
 
Because it is Intel, they really don't. It doesn't look like Intel is going to competing with the 3090/6900 XT's of the world out of the gate. I'm sure Intel will be fine bundling midrange GPU's with their CPU's to all their OEM's. They can be profitable without shipping anything to retail directly.

I would be happy with 5700XT levels of performance for $300. That would be a strong first showing in my book.
 
Agreed, so where's the issue? It's not like AMD could suddenly overnight do impossible things... They are increasing the production as much as they can for a company of their size that does not own fabs.

I don't quite understand the criticism of AMD not selling more product, when there are clearly logical limitations of what can and cannot be done by them and with what they can work with...

Are people upset AMD is not as big as nvidia or intel? We all know they are not, yet they still fight against them as best as they can...

It's funny that the little guy is fighting 2 giants at the same time, while those 2 giants don't fight each other (yet), but only fight the little guy... Am I the only one that can appreciate the uneven fight AMD has here?

In no version of reality AMD not competing at all would be better... so they do it as good as they can. If they get bigger they can fight better, but getting bigger vs nvidia and intel is not easy, so we have this situation going on for a long time still.

AMD bite more than what they can chew. obviously launching new ryzen CPU, new APU, new console and new GPU all on the 7nm will going to spell trouble. and to make it worse they give the hope to people like it won't be a disaster like what happen to nvidia 3080/3070 stock and talk about how price will return to more normal MSRP within 4 to 8 weeks.

for me i can see the issue with supply since the very beginning. but i have seen people are denial about it and saying AMD will not going to have stock issues. and here we are. maybe a lot of the flak AMD receiving right now can be avoided if they were more honest with certain things. but if they were too honest about it, it might affect their stock price in negative way and they can't let that happen right now since having higher stock price is important to certain move they did recently like those Xilinx acquisition.
 
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I will agree with you this is likely what will happen. But when you are an upstart in an established market, you kind of have to almost sell things at a loss to gain foothold. I know this is not Intel's MO. But for their graphics division to succeed, they need mindshare. That means making sure these cards get in the hands of gamers at a reasonable price.

Capturing mindshare will be difficult at best. Raja has a spotty history at best. And Intel has a history of dropping support for unprofitable divisions. How would you like to own 3D Xpoint right now? That's like 10x's worse with video cards that lose support. Gamers expect a card to be viable for 5+ years. (At least 3-4 years mainstream support) Only way intel will do this is with an uber attractive price and a way to keep them out of miners hands. (ie: No PO Box deliveries. 1 card/6 months to any given address/credit card)

mining make things more complicated. intel can price their 3080 competitor at $300 but once it reach retail we will no longer going to see that kind of price. if the card can mine as good as 3080 then the retail price will match 3080 street price. those cheap introduction price will only serve as a mean to increase the money that going into their pocket. intel most likely going to attack OEM based machine (prebuilt) rather than DIY first. remember intel did not enter discrete GPU market to truly compete with AMD and nvidia. rather than taking gamer mindshare about their product for it intel it is more about how we can force gamer to use our product.
 
mining make things more complicated. intel can price their 3080 competitor at $300 but once it reach retail we will no longer going to see that kind of price. if the card can mine as good as 3080 then the retail price will match 3080 street price. those cheap introduction price will only serve as a mean to increase the money that going into their pocket. intel most likely going to attack OEM based machine (prebuilt) rather than DIY first. remember intel did not enter discrete GPU market to truly compete with AMD and nvidia. rather than taking gamer mindshare about their product for it intel it is more about how we can force gamer to use our product.

I don't disagree at all. But if intel forced people to buy them through the website with other security precautions then more would get into gamers hands.

Newegg does lotteries. Why can't intel sell straight off their website and control how many cards each address gets. Plus you cut out the middle man.

We know for a fact a number of cards are getting diverted even before amazon and new egg get their hands on them. We saw entire pallets being diverted straight to miners. And amazon and newegg doesn't allow entire pallets to be sold. So they are snatched up straight from the distributor.
 

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I don't disagree at all. But if intel forced people to buy them through the website with other security precautions then more would get into gamers hands.
I can't imagine Intel bothering with this, way too much hassle for a company that makes most of its business dealing in bulk with OEMs and SIs. If Intel really wanted to make XPG "gamer-only" then Intel can do what Intel does best: sell it primarily through OEMs and SIs.
 
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VforV

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Yeah, the best we can hope from intel GPUs is to be at least mid-field competitive and have better availability than AMD (for sure) and nvidia (maybe), but we can't expect them to fight mining or anything related. Nah, that's wet dreams land stuff...

If they can deliver the first part, it would be better than it is now.