Dane politicians living high on the hog, an things

[ltrazaklt]

oh Denmark , I though you were in Amsterdam , sorry , I alway get those BeNeLux countries confused.. but prostitution is legal there eh?..I am curious as to the tax rates, and the STD stats ..btw , Some places in America in still have legalized prostitution as well..Nevada , and New Orleans in certain jurisdictions .. and Pot is practically legal in many places now as well, or at least Decriminalized ..I geuss we'll find out if its good or bad after a while.

as for the whole Health Care costs issues ..there are waaay too many factors to put into a forum post , but I can tell ya that lack of Tort reform (which I believe Gulli's country has) is a big factor ..the insurance companies are actually pretty simplistic, all they do is run the numbers, numbers and statistics , that's it, they total up X dollars paid out , and divide the number of policies they got coming in ..and dont be fooled by the BS media ..insurance companies fail all the time, they go bankrupt, go belly up , and disappear. even the greedy stock profit driven ones.. thats the thing no one ever seems to notice when they point the finger at companies and corporations ..the Bad ones will eventually get caught, or the consumer will catch on to them and stop buying from them, and those bad companies wether they treat their employees bad or their customers bad.. they will NOT last ..they WILL go under. happens all the time (excluding taxpyer bailouts of course 😉) ..any good company knows to treat its people good and its customers even better, they know its the ONLY way they will STAY in business.

 

[Gulli]

oh Denmark , I though you were in Amsterdam , sorry , I alway get those BeNeLux countries confused.. but prostitution is legal there eh?..I am curious as to the tax rates, and the STD stats ..btw , Some places in America in still have legalized prostitution as well..Nevada , and New Orleans in certain jurisdictions .. and Pot is practically legal in many places now as well, or at least Decriminalized ..I geuss we'll find out if its good or bad after a while.

as for the whole Health Care costs issues ..there are waaay too many factors to put into a forum post , but I can tell ya that lack of Tort reform (which I believe Gulli's country has) is a big factor ..the insurance companies are actually pretty simplistic, all they do is run the numbers, numbers and statistics , that's it, they total up X dollars paid out , and divide the number of policies they got coming in ..and dont be fooled by the BS media ..insurance companies fail all the time, they go bankrupt, go belly up , and disappear. even the greedy stock profit driven ones.. thats the thing no one ever seems to notice when they point the finger at companies and corporations ..the Bad ones will eventually get caught, or the consumer will catch on to them and stop buying from them, and those bad companies wether they treat their employees bad or their customers bad.. they will NOT last ..they WILL go under. happens all the time (excluding taxpyer bailouts of course 😉) ..any good company knows to treat its people good and its customers even better, they know its the ONLY way they will STAY in business.

Amsterdam is not a country (it's the capital of The Netherlands) and Denmark is not part of the Benelux (it stands, surprise, surprise, for Belgium-Netherlands-Luxembourg), but I digress...

Prostitution is legal in many European countries, but it's always taxed and surrounded by legislation (condoms are mandatory for example and most countries have outlawed pimping). That's the beauty of legalizing something that would happen anyway: you can exert some control over it, have inspections and recoup the cost to society (which becomes lower because you have to put fewer people in jail) through taxes and fines. Many American libertarians, including Ron Paul share that same idea. Of course a true libertarian would say the government doesn't have the right to ban any voluntary choice, including taking drugs (I don't agree with this because people have been known to become addicted to heroine after one try, so there's not much choice involved).

I think alcohol is a much greater threat to society than pot or tobacco and many experts agree on this (think of it, have you ever heard of someone beating up his wife when he was high on pot?). Still, since people would brew it themselves if it were made illegal we might as well keep it legal and exert some control over it and collect taxes from it to offset some of the damage it does. During the prohibition era many people died or became blind because of methanol poisoning, now this number is much lower because the state can actually inspect breweries. There's also this theory that many drugs become less "interesting" to youths when they're legal (proponents cite lower user rates in countries with a more relaxed attitude).

We should treat shrooms, xtc, LSD and pot the same as we do tobacco, alcohol and caffeine: legalize, tax and regulate because some people will use these things anyway (this is actually very similar to an argument conservatives use against gun control: "if you make guns illegal criminals would still get them somewhere", with the difference that it's much easier to grow some pot in your basement than it is to smuggle a gun from The Ukraine or Brazil to the US).



On tort reform, yes, continental Europe doesn't have all those crazy damage claim cases, because we have civil law instead of common law, the UK is an exception but they have 100% government run healthcare (there is also a private sector but that's optional), well, maybe instead of "but" I should say "therefore" (goverment run healthcare eliminates defensive medicine). However that's only part of the difference. Our doctors are also paid less than American doctors (they still make a lot of money though), this is in part possible because medschool is cheaper as well. In addition we have almost everyone paying at least something into the system but the biggest difference is regulations: healthcare providers, pharmaceutical companies and/or insurers (depending on the system in question) can't just jack up their rates without a damn good explanation to the government and no one may be denied treatment and profit is outlawed, except on optional packages people can choose on top of basic coverage (basic coverage covers all treatment of life, sense or limb threatening conditions, as well as for example reconstructive surgery, it is paid for by the state, optional packages may include things like alternative medicine or laser eye surgery, this is not paid for by the state and providers may make a profit out of it). And it works, free market fundamentalists may not like it but the numbers are very clear on this: Americans do not get what they paid for when compared to other countries. It's an empirical fact. Apparently profit/greed and healthcare just don't go together, maybe that's because healthcare is by definition altruistic.

 

[ltrazaklt]

1) I know what the BeNeLux countries are it was a joke ; trying to keep the debate light ; I know that Denmark is not part of those; (nor part of Germany , thanks to certain countries from across 'the pond' 😉)
2) you have still not given anything that shows (other than your personal opinion) that A) Legalizing prostitution and taxing it, shows any kind of improvement on the society as a whole; B) does anything to reduce the spread of STDs. C) is in anyway cost effective to healthcare
3) your argument of 'well people are going to do it anyway' is flawed , people still kill each other; therefore by your argument Murder should be legalized and taxed; using prohibition is a poor example, the net effects of alcoholism remain the same before ,during and after prohibition
4) 'ever heard of someone beating up his wife when high on pot?' yes , happens all the time. sometimes people even beat thier wife or kids when completely sober. (sometimes the issue is financial or stress related , not drug related)
5) yes some Libertarians, and other politicians have argued to legalize certain drugs; it a very touchy and volatile issue ..and it pertains to the balance between Individual Rights and Freedoms , and the reach of the Gov't to affect or control those freedom and rights ..the question is how far does this go , legalize Heroin? or Meth ? or Oxy ? it is a balancing act , I peronally think that kids would stay the heck away more if they got to tour the jails and the hospitals , when I was a kid , they took us all downtown , and introduced us to the Jail (and the people in them)..and showed the possible consequences of our future actions and decisions.. I personally think that showing kids (or adults) the REAL world of what happens to people who use drugs (I am talking about the OD's at the morgue, and the people trying to quit going through DT's and withdrawals ) ..I personally think real world experience has a far greater effect than any legal status. the same goes for the Prostitutes and STDs , if people got to tour what the nurses refer as the 'crotch ward' (and that is as descriptive as I will get here , but believe me there are far more graphic terms I could use) or take for example Motorcycles ; quite frankly they are simply deathtraps (whether you where your helmet or not) Doctors and Nurses call them 'Donorcycles' because when they opted for the 'screw the helmet laws' they also (prolly without even realizing it) opted to become organ donors, now as an Individual Right and/or Freedom, it's your choice to take the risk ..but A) why should I pay for your poor decision? B) to what extent should the Gov't intervene ? ..I just think that real world experience would have more of an affect on behaviour than any legal status , just my own personal opinion here.
6) yes on this we can agree , Tort reform ; however my Ex and one of my best friends now live in the UK and have for more than a decade now, one of them Loves the UK system, my Ex however (and being female she goes to the doctor more than us guys do) she has told me some of the horror stories of the socialized medicine over there.
7) your 'empirical fact' is questionable ..in the North , Canadians and Americans are trading off their prescriptions drugs for surgery or other healthcare. in the last say 100 years , the greatest advances in Medicine have come from the USA , from drugs, to surgeries, to preventive (defensive medicine) from psychology to genetics to research. I have to disagree with your statement that 'Americans do not get what they paid for compare to other countries'