News Dell Cannot Ship Alienware PCs to Certain U.S. States Due to Power Regulations

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AtrociKitty

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I've read the California legislation and no where in that bill does it specifically call out power levels.
The formula is provided. As I said, it's more complicated than raw power consumption.
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Jul 27, 2021
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.... it's more complicated than raw power consumption.

This is a "cop out" argument for it being complicated. The energy use of an Aurora R12 with a i5-11400F, GTX 1650, 8GB RAM, and a 1TB HD which is banned can not be higher than a XPS using a i9-11900K, RTX 3060, 32GB RAM and 512GB SSD + 1TB HD. There's no formula in the world that would make the first system more power hungry than the second.
 

AtrociKitty

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This is a "cop out" argument for it being complicated. The energy use of an Aurora R12 with a i5-11400F, GTX 1650, 8GB RAM, and a 1TB HD which is banned can not be higher than a XPS using a i9-11900K, RTX 3060, 32GB RAM and 512GB SSD + 1TB HD. There's no formula in the world that would make the first system more power hungry than the second.
Because it has nothing to do with total power consumption, as I've said several times now. You should know this as well, if you read the legislation as you claim.

First, you're looking at power over four modes: short-idle, long-idle, sleep, and off. Second, you must modify that result by the device's expandability score, which includes memory bandwidth, add-on capabilities, and so on. For example, an additional storage device grants an extra 26 kWh/yr allowance over an identical device without that storage.

I'll even give you some raw numbers, showing how a more "powerful" computer can come out ahead under this law:
  • A midrange Alienware with a Ryzen 5800, a GTX 3060, 16 GB of RAM, and a 550W PSU can be played for 126 hours per year, or 20 minutes a day
  • A high-end Alienware with a GTX 3090 and 128 GB of RAM that draws 1000W under load can be played for 149 hours a year, or 24 minutes a day
Why does the 3090-powered PC have an advantage, even though it draws more power? Because the larger quantity of memory, combined with the increased memory bandwidth of the 3090, give it an advantage. This rather insidiously allows power-hungry servers to be permissible under the law, while barring enthusiast PCs, due to configuration differences.
 
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deesider

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This is a "cop out" argument for it being complicated. The energy use of an Aurora R12 with a i5-11400F, GTX 1650, 8GB RAM, and a 1TB HD which is banned can not be higher than a XPS using a i9-11900K, RTX 3060, 32GB RAM and 512GB SSD + 1TB HD. There's no formula in the world that would make the first system more power hungry than the second.
It isn't exactly clear why those Dell systems fail - since who can be bothered going through that table and calculating everything... (apparently it took Dell four weeks to do it).

But as AtrociKitty has pointed out, to reach compliance just keep adding RAM. Unless it was just due to the system not meeting the basic power factor requirement of 0.9, in which case, use a better power supply!
 

deesider

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I don't understand why anyone would think that capping the maximum power consumption of a computer would somehow make it more efficient.
That's not how efficiency is calculated for any other appliance, so why computers?
Efficiency is about the amount of work that can be accomplished per unit of energy, not the absolute energy usage. Energy star should know this fact; it's their entire purpose.
Video games are played for fun, so efficiency is fun per watt.

- Actually, the linked Register article notes that they are targeting a efficiency defined by bit transition per joule, which is amount of work accomplished by energy just as you wished for...
 
Jul 27, 2021
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Because it has nothing to do with total power consumption, as I've said several times now. You should know this as well, if you read the legislation as you claim.

It has everything to do with power consumption. That is the purpose of the legislation to reduce power consumption in the state by requiring computers to be more like vehicle's MPG's and to be more efficient using electricity.

The formulas have way of muddying the waters when it comes power use over the course of a year. The formulas are intended to level some kind of playing field when it comes to the different designs of desktop PC version laptops versus game consoles. The expected use per year is a WAG and there's no proof that a person with a RTX 3090 plays 149 hours a year (also a RTX 3090 system will not draw 1000W) versus a RTX 3060 for less time. Actually a counter argument could be made that a faster system leads to a person playing less because they are not subject to longer load times and have smoother game play resulting in faster playing of levels. However, those formulas don't make a whole lot sense or even an argument when compare these two Dell computers.

I'm comparing disparate systems to illustrate that even when you plug in the numbers the R12 Aurora and compare those numbers to what you'd get with a faster more power hungry system in the XPS both systems should be disqualified. Realize that a gaming computer is made up of only so many power consuming and functional parts. That is, there's nothing in the R12 Aurora that isn't in the XPS. The differences are cosmetic (e.g. Case, Fans, etc.). Likewise the use of the two systems would be the same. The Aurora doesn't do anything above and beyond a XPS. Now, the power/functional blocks of these computers are Motherboard, CPU, Memory, Video Card, Power Supply, Bulk Storage. The things that are likely to be different between the two are and those are Motherboard and Power Supply. The CPU, Memory, Video Card and Bulk Storage are going to pulled from the same parts bin. The motherboards on both computers are Intel Series 400 chipset and have identical power and bandwidth specs. The power supply on a Aurora might be a bit larger, but hopefully more efficient and thus more of positive mitigation factor. Shoving a 1000W power supply into a computer doesn't mean it pulls 1000W. Besides if the power supply was the real issue Dell could simply downsize the power supply. Having purchased a number of Dell Poweredge servers in the last couple years, Dell is pretty good at offering different size power supplies. Now, with respect to the CPU, GPU, Memory and Bulk Storage that would be a wash if the components were the same (Right? an i5-11400F is going to score per the formula exactly the same whether it's in a R12 or XPS). Same goes for the GPU and other components. The thing is the R12 is banned even when it is using more moderate components as compared to a beefier XPS. That's my issue with this. The formulas should disqualify both systems but they don't. That leads me to believe this was motivated by something else.

Another way to look at this. Car fuel economy . Imagine two cars that are built on the same platform . One car has a 4L V8 with 400HP the other a 3L V6 300HP. The cars are identical in weight, aerodynamics, and add-on equipment. But the car with the 300HP V6 is banned from sale as a fuel hog not because the care has worse MPG, in fact it gets better mileage than the V8, but it gets banned because someone skewed the numbers on because it has 4-doors versus the other car which only has 2-doors.

One thing I know from my time in this industry that those formulaic numbers can be argued over nine-ways to Sunday and the numbers they spit out can be tweaked or with small changes on Dell's part made to move the machines into compliance.
 

Joseph_138

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I hope everyone stays up to date on the realities of what is actually going on and what is true before spouting about this stuff. Here are a few examples:

California PG&E, and other providers, want to reduce subsidies and charge people $70/month for connecting their home solar into the grid.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/article250185380.html

A recent report showed that the infrared heat signature of the dark solar panels placed in the Sahara would increase global warming.
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/giant-desert-solar-farms-might-have-unintended-climate-consequences

How many people who have solar, or are considering it, will dump it in a heartbeat if they have to pay $70/month for the privilege of having it? The whole point of going solar is to save money, not spend more.
 

Joseph_138

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The problem is building enough solar panels to cover New Mexico would cost about the world's entire GDP for a year. I mean it's worth it in the long-run, but the cost is so heavily front-loaded (it's like buying 25 years worth of coal and oil at the start of those 25 years) that people are reluctant to or simply can't afford to do it. You can't stop spending money on food and water for a year, just to build solar panels.

It also would lead to tremendous power variations, since the rate at which power is produced doesn't match the rate it's consumed. That's where the idea of storing the power comes in. But that introduces inefficiencies due to energy conversions. Battery storage is about 65% efficient (you lose about 20% of the energy charging the battery, and 20% discharging it). Pumped storage (pumping water into a tank at a higher elevation, then having the water turn a generator as it flows down) is currently the best, about 80% efficient. So now you've increased the land area you need to cover with solar panels (and the cost) by another 5%-10%.

Add to that we're doing this backwards. As long as renewable + nuclear power generation is less than 100% of consumption, it doesn't make sense to store electricity. If renewables + nuclear is less than 100%, the remainder is being generated by fossil fuels. So if you store part of your renewable power during the day instead of use it, you're just burning more fossil fuels during the day to make up for that losing that power. When you tap that stored power at night, true, you have to burn less fossil fuels. But due to the inefficiency of storage, the reduction in fossil fuel use at night is less than the increase in fossil fuel use during the day. And so storing renewable energy just causes you to burn more fossil fuels.

The way we should be doing it is using all the renewable energy the moment it's produced, and using fossil fuels to make up for when renewables are insufficient. Storing renewable energy doesn't make sense until renewable + nuclear generation exceeds 100% of consumption at times. It makes sense to research storage, to try to make it cheaper and increase its efficiency. But actually implementing it right now makes no sense and just causes us to burn more fossil fuels. (For most locations. There are a few remote communities where their renewable generation exceeds 100% of their consumption during the day. Storage makes sense there.)

The environmental movement has a lot of good ideas. But irrational exuberance about their viability is causing us to implement them in all sorts of wrong ways.


Yeah, that was my thinking reading this too. 75 kWh/yr works out to just 8.6 Watts if you leave the system on 24/7. So obviously they've got some sort of "typical use" profile they're measuring the computer against to come up with its power consumption figure. I've been searching trying to figure out what this profile is.

Ah, I think I found it. It's in the Energy Star guidelines, page 13. 15% off, 45% sleep, 10% long idle, 30% short idle.
https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/ENERGY STAR Computers Final Version 8.0 Specification - Rev. April 2020_0.pdf

If correct, that's assuming the computer will be in use 40% of the time (9.6 hours/day). In my experience that's not how people use gaming systems. They typically have a gaming computer, and a regular computer (usually a laptop - who wants to be tied to their desk just to browse the web?). The regular computer gets used most of the time for web browsing, bill payment, work, watching cat videos, etc. The gaming computer gets turned on for just a few hours a night to play games. So it would appear the problem is poor regulatory definitions which don't really match the use profile of gaming computers.

I suspect Dell could get around the problem by creating a power profile for regular use which more severely throttles the processor. And a different power profile which kicks in only when gaming. But after the diesel emissions scandals, making these sort of use-specific profiles could be misinterpreted as trying to cheat on the regulatory standards tests. Even though it would create a real power savings for the end user. (If you limit an 8 core i9 with a top clock speed of 5.2 GHz, to 4 cores and a top clock of 3.6 GHz, it's only gonna use about as much power as an i3.)


The drawback of putting panels on all existing buildings is that the grid was designed for power to flow one-way. From a central generation source, to a multitude of consumers. If you try to use it to distribute power from multiple generation sources to multiple users, it creates maintenance issues. Right now if the power company needs to repair some lines, they shut off power to that block, then go repair those lines. But if all the buildings on that block are generating power via solar panels, then those lines are still live even though the power company shut off its power. And any maintenance worker touching those lines could be electrocuted.

They need some way to quickly and easily shut off power flowing from all the customers to the lines. It's not an insurmountable problem, but that infrastructure simply doesn't exist yet. They have systems for the power company to signal building solar installations to stop sending power. But it requires each building owner to actually maintain and keep that system in operating order. If you're a power line maintenance worker, do you really want to trust your life to every building owner on the block keeping his equipment in working order? The system needs a better design.

Like I tell kids, everything has a benefit and a cost. If you're thinking about something only in terms of its benefits, or only in terms of its costs, that's an indication that you're being biased. You're allowing your preconceived opinion to filter out support or opposition for it, and you're not giving it a fair evaluation.


Actually, covering home roofs with solar panels with an air gap between the panels and roof, would decrease the amount of sunlight being converted into heat inside the home. It would reduce air conditioning requirements substantially. (Of course planting trees around your house accomplishes the same thing. But people hate having to clean leaves out of their gutters.)


California sits far enough south in latitude and the weather is sunny enough that solar hits about a 0.18 to 0.19 capacity factor (if you have a solar panel rated for 100 Watts, on average over a year it will generate 18-19 Watts). This is significantly better than the 0.145 average for the U.S. overall, and substantially better than the about 0.10 for the Northern U.S. states, Canada, and most European countries like the UK and Germany. So its policies to encourage adoption of solar do make sense.

But you're correct it has an irrational fear of nuclear power. There are (were) two nuclear plants here, with 5 reactors. Diablo Canyon and San Onofre (I live about 10 miles from it). San Onofre was shut down for maintenance in 2012, and regulators threw so many hurdles at certifying it for reopening that Edison just gave up and shut the plant down permanently. That removed about 9% of California's annual electrical generation. That lost generation was made up by natural gas (see what I mean about fossil fuels being the flex energy source which fills in gaps between generation and consumption?). So their shortsightedness caused a massive increase in consumption of fossil fuels.

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-repo...-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy

(Note that these tables are actual generation, not capacity. That's another common trick - listing power sources by capacity, which exaggerates the efficacy of renewables. Since they have low capacity factors around 0.1 to 0.3, you need about 3x-9x more renewable capacity to equal the actual power generation of nuclear capacity. Nuclear's capacity factor is about 0.9.)

They're trying to shut down Diablo Canyon, which would remove another 9% of the state's electricity generation. Even though statistically nuclear power is the safest power generation technology man has ever invented. Safer than even wind and solar. Did you know that the same week of the Fukushima nuclear accident (where nobody has died), wind killed one person in the U.S.? A high school teacher in Ohio forgot to lock the maintenance ladder to the school's wind turbine. A student climbed up it and fell to his death. But you can guess which one got more news coverage, and so people's perception of the relative dangers of these technologies ends up skewed from reality.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesc...athprint-a-price-always-paid/?sh=79b81c32709b

The brainwashing is strong with this one. There is no way renewables will ever be able to power the world. Eventually, you will have to build so many solar or wind generating plants that you will have to choose between land devoted to electricity and land devoted to food production.
 
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Jul 27, 2021
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It isn't exactly clear why those Dell systems fail - since who can be bothered going through that table and calculating everything... (apparently it took Dell four weeks to do it).

But as AtrociKitty has pointed out, to reach compliance just keep adding RAM. Unless it was just due to the system not meeting the basic power factor requirement of 0.9, in which case, use a better power supply!

It is interesting to note that only Alienware Aurora desktops but not all are on the banned list.

The 128GB RAM model doesn't cut the mustard either. It's banned so the increase the RAM argument carries no water.

Power Supply efficiency is something that if only having to put a Platinum rated P/S would make the grade then given what Dell charges for an Alienware branded computer they certainly could do that. Why didn't they? It's not like there aren't plenty of the P/S on the market. Also, since the XPS is a lower tier computer but still capable of getting powerful CPU's and GPU's I can't see that line getting expensive high efficiency P/S'es.

I'm pointing out the inconsistencies in this action. If the high-end CPU and GPU computers were black listed on the Aurora's the same should be true of the XPS.
 
The highest number they've listed in that table is 100 kWh/year as maximum consumption. A year has 8760 hrs, so if I keep it running 24/7 it can't use more than 11.4W, which is less than most NAS.
Oh, and if you add a RTX 3090 you can use up to 18.6W because it has such a high memory bandwith. (which obviously is the leading metric to estimate graphics cards) 16 GB of DDR4-3600 gives another 0.8W elevating us up to 19.3 W avg
But what if I ..... let's say I turn it off at night and only play games for a couple hours on the weekend. Sounds crazy, right?
105 days with 6 hrs each means I could get up to 268.5 W without going over their limit, and any hr in standby or being "off" but not unplugged draws from that number. But only if it has an ES of under 690.
 

hawkwindeb

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How about concept of kit building like the Heathkit but easier to build. ie: no soldering LOL
So high-end gaming rigs in kit form just enough to get around the law (ie: motherboard already installed in chassis) but have all parts included with easy snap together or just need a screwdriver type parts. Oh, and easy to understand instructions so the folks that typically buy fully assembled PC's can build one in 30min. The instructions might be the hardest part to crack. LOL
 
In the spirit of said states which want to make these sorts of regulations, no matter how useless or insigificant, it should not be too long before hair dryers and clothes dryers are declared 'verbotten'! Home stereos exceeding 30 watts/channel..? gone! TVs consuming more than 10W....gone!)

(You'd think the manufacturers could include a BIOS setting that adjusts CPU and GPU clocks downwards by 10% or so to let many currently prohibited systems 'squeak by' in power consumption...; certainly a 5800X running at only ~3.7 GHz will consume much less power than one running at all-core 4.5 GHz; this will of course, allow enthusiasts to simply reflash the BIOS, or better yet, simply disable the 'CA/VE/HI' setting!) :)
 
View: https://youtu.be/N5fc5ZX6Kzk


That video seems pretty informative. You wonder if some manufacturers will get around requirements by simply selling barebones kits like they used to where it’s mostly assembled and they sell a lot of parts with instructions on assembly.

It does make sense why they’d want to limit energy use, but it does seem as well that they could figure out a solution for power delivery as well.
 
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deesider

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The highest number they've listed in that table is 100 kWh/year as maximum consumption. A year has 8760 hrs, so if I keep it running 24/7 it can't use more than 11.4W, which is less than most NAS.
The law proposal itself mentioned an average duty cycle of 1550 hours per year of on time - which for the previous standard would be around 75W and the new July 2021 standard is around 50W at idle. With all the 'adders' for additional components - storage, ram etc - very achievable based on looking at motherboard reviews of idle power draw.
 

deesider

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In the spirit of said states which want to make these sorts of regulations, no matter how useless or insigificant, it should not be too long before hair dryers and clothes dryers are declared 'verbotten'! Home stereos exceeding 30 watts/channel..? gone! TVs consuming more than 10W....gone!)

Idle power draw for TVs and home stereos is already in the code!

(You'd think the manufacturers could include a BIOS setting that adjusts CPU and GPU clocks downwards by 10% or so to let many currently prohibited systems 'squeak by' in power consumption...; certainly a 5800X running at only ~3.7 GHz will consume much less power than one running at all-core 4.5 GHz; this will of course, allow enthusiasts to simply reflash the BIOS, or better yet, simply disable the 'CA/VE/HI' setting!) :)
It is for idle power draw - use as much as you like when actually gaming...
 

JWNoctis

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One might well expect to see more laptop-type power saving features for desktop hardware someday soon.

CPU and SSD consume very little power at idle these days.

GPU, slightly more.

RAM and VRAM draw much more just to refresh.

High-powered PSU often has poor efficiency at idle loads.

The rest of the system would have to catch up someday soon.

Regulating maximum power consumption as if it's PIII/TNT2 playing Quake, however...would be tantamount to banning personal ownership of high-performance computing hardware. That would either make no sense, or be basically unenforceable, right? Right?

Allowance and regulatory support for clothesline alone could have saved a lot more electricity than that.
 

ConfusedCounsel

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Considering recent heat waves and use of A/C I don't blame them. It's a matter of time when other products are affected. When car industry goes electric and all.
I am not sure the current grid could take every American plugging in their car at night, running their AC / Heat Pump all day, and Gaming with a 3080 paired with a Intel 11600K. We might have to choose between leaving the home, staying comfortable, or gaming.

Of course, Gaming Laptops are more power efficient. Maybe this is the motivation behind all the Thin-and-Light, Ultra-Portable gaming laptops being released.
 

ConfusedCounsel

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That would make too much sense, especially for those states. But your definitely right, subsidies for solar w/ storage battery would help a lot. It would help a lot in any state except maybe Alaska. But instead of doing whats right, they would rather punish everyone with ineffective power consumption rules by mandating what electronic devices and appliances they can have in there houses.
Solar is fine in some states, in other states like MN, wind may be a better option for home owners. I, sadly, live in a wooded community and my Home Owner Association will not permit trees to be cut down to create sunlight for solar.
 

ConfusedCounsel

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There are certain exceptions for rack-mounted servers and workstations
Thanks. Though a lawyer, I really don't feel like researching law in my spare time.

But still, what about say someone doing video editing for living or design work (thinking more CAD). They could definitely use a powerful rig. Then there is AI research. Tensor cores can be a real benefit.

The problem I am seeing is Silicon Valley...
 
Thanks. Though a lawyer, I really don't feel like researching law in my spare time.

But still, what about say someone doing video editing for living or design work (thinking more CAD). They could definitely use a powerful rig. Then there is AI research. Tensor cores can be a real benefit.

The problem I am seeing is Silicon Valley...

The technology exists to allow these PCs to pass the requirements. Origin, iBuyPower, Digital Storm, etc. are already meeting it. This is just Dell being Dell. Stubborn and not willing to spend an extra $1 to meet a requirement. Thing is, a bean counter would point out that sales lost is greater than the $1 spent, but apparently Dell fired all the bean counters as well.
 
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ConfusedCounsel

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The technology exists to allow these PCs to pass the requirements. Origin, iBuyPower, Digital Storm, etc. are already meeting it. This is just Dell being Dell. Stubborn and not willing to spend an extra $1 to meet a requirement. Thing is, a bean counter would point out that sales lost is greater than the $1 spent, but apparently Dell fired all the bean counters as well.
Please don't get me started on Dell.
 
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