Difficult technical question on ISO & light

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[snip]
> ***FILM*** doesn't produce data, photoelectrons, a
> voltage, or digital signals. It actually creates a
> real, tangible, physical photograph. Nothing
> representational at all.

Last time I checked ***FILM*** actually holds a latent image that needs to
be developed chemically to produce **a representation** of the original
image. Or are you suggesting that the silver halides actually hold some
metaphysical part of the image?
 
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Harvey wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > ***FILM*** doesn't produce data, photoelectrons, a
> > voltage, or digital signals. It actually creates a
> > real, tangible, physical photograph. Nothing
> > representational at all.
>
> Last time I checked ***FILM*** actually holds a latent image that needs to
> be developed chemically to produce **a representation** of the original
> image. Or are you suggesting that the silver halides actually hold some
> metaphysical part of the image?

WHY do people say such things without thinking first?

The image is created upon exposure to light, through
chemical decomposition. The chemical change to silver
is already there. A "latent" image is a chemical image.
It's not data representing an image. It does not produce
a representation. It's an _optical_ image from the get go.

When will people start using their brains and think about
what these processes actually do....
 
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In message <svbbo056bo7efk0ki39sqfiqghp4fe4r03@4ax.com>,
John <use_net@puresilver.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:26:42 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <nospamming@bite.me>
>wrote:
>
>>Ok so you have to wind it between shots. I thought we were talking about
>>good features. Mine has never run out of batteries. I carry an extra and
>>hardly ever use it.
>
> Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
>all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
>better than anything being produced by digi-cams.

You've seen all the digital photos taken?

We've had plenty of time to discover Cartier-Bresson's photos. We've
had almost no time to discover digital gems. Art often takes a long
time to be recognized.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
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I guess he's somebody important. I have bever heard of him. I only want to
capture things on storage mmedium not have to train for years to get one
picture.

Besides, I have seen you so-called professionals take 20 and 30 rolls of
film at event to get one prize winner. The difference is with digital it
doesn't cost us an arm and a leg to do it. I have money to waste on other
toys.

<JPS@no.komm> wrote in message
news:74ddo01ce9shp0tlpupiig45v30im0veqb@4ax.com...
> In message <svbbo056bo7efk0ki39sqfiqghp4fe4r03@4ax.com>,
> John <use_net@puresilver.org> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:26:42 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <nospamming@bite.me>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Ok so you have to wind it between shots. I thought we were talking about
> >>good features. Mine has never run out of batteries. I carry an extra and
> >>hardly ever use it.
> >
> > Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
> >all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
> >better than anything being produced by digi-cams.
>
> You've seen all the digital photos taken?
>
> We've had plenty of time to discover Cartier-Bresson's photos. We've
> had almost no time to discover digital gems. Art often takes a long
> time to be recognized.
> --
>
> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
> ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
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On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:30:54 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <nospamming@bite.me>
wrote:

>Besides, I have seen you so-called professionals take 20 and 30 rolls of
>film at event to get one prize winner.

Professionals are rarely artists. I like to think I'm a little
of an exception.

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
 
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Tom Phillips wrote:
....
> The *point* is Nyquist doesn't pragmatically apply. Due to the
> electronics involved, pixels can only get so small. You only
> need a minimum of 3 photons to initiate exposure and photolysis
> in silver halides.

LOL!
--

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net
 
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William Graham wrote:
> "dj_nme" <dj_nme@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41858189$0$31906$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
<big snippage>
>>If you use a film p&s, then what are you going to use for a sensor?
>
>
> Film, of course.....I think we are talking about two different things here.
> I am sorry now that I jumped into your discussion. I see now that my
> statement has just confused you. I was simply commenting on the fact that I
> would like a rangefinder camera that would take my Nikkor set, and one way
> of doing it would be to find a cheap point & shoot film camera, and tear off
> the lens, and mount a Nikon F bayonet mount on it, shimmed the right
> distance from the film plane, and then I would be able to put my Nikkors on
> it and take pictures..........

I am reading this thread in rec.photo.digital, so that is where my
confusion comes from.

Perhaps a way to use your 50mm Nikkor would be on an adapter with a
Soviet era rangefinder camera, like a Zorki (Leica clone) or maybe a
Kiev (Contax clone).
I think the Kiev would be the easiest, as the focusing helical (for
50mm)is built into the body and the adapter could efectively be just a
tube (with F Mount on one end and the contax 50mm lens bayonette on the
other) and would be used with the lens set to infinity.

I'm not so sure that the electronic rangefinder from a cheap p&s would
be of any use in helping to focus a Nikon lens attached in place of it's
own.
 
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"dj_nme" <dj_nme@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41861de6$0$31912$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> William Graham wrote:
>> "dj_nme" <dj_nme@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:41858189$0$31906$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> <big snippage>
>>>If you use a film p&s, then what are you going to use for a sensor?
>>
>>
>> Film, of course.....I think we are talking about two different things
>> here. I am sorry now that I jumped into your discussion. I see now that
>> my statement has just confused you. I was simply commenting on the fact
>> that I would like a rangefinder camera that would take my Nikkor set, and
>> one way of doing it would be to find a cheap point & shoot film camera,
>> and tear off the lens, and mount a Nikon F bayonet mount on it, shimmed
>> the right distance from the film plane, and then I would be able to put
>> my Nikkors on it and take pictures..........
>
> I am reading this thread in rec.photo.digital, so that is where my
> confusion comes from.
>
> Perhaps a way to use your 50mm Nikkor would be on an adapter with a Soviet
> era rangefinder camera, like a Zorki (Leica clone) or maybe a Kiev (Contax
> clone).
> I think the Kiev would be the easiest, as the focusing helical (for
> 50mm)is built into the body and the adapter could efectively be just a
> tube (with F Mount on one end and the contax 50mm lens bayonette on the
> other) and would be used with the lens set to infinity.
>
> I'm not so sure that the electronic rangefinder from a cheap p&s would be
> of any use in helping to focus a Nikon lens attached in place of it's own.

Yes, you are quite correct on this point. I would be better off putting a
nikkor adapter on some other rangefinder camera. This is probably why I
never really pursued my idea any further than the original concept........
 
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:39:41 -0700, Tom Phillips <nospam777@aol.com>
wrote:

> I have the name and number of one.
>Or you could just read his book...

Got an ISBN ? I need something to put me to sleep !

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
 
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John wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:39:41 -0700, Tom Phillips <nospam777@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have the name and number of one.
> >Or you could just read his book...
>
> Got an ISBN ? I need something to put me to sleep !


Desktop Scanners, Image Quality Evaluation

Robert Gann Ph.D.

A scanner is a scanner is a scanner...
 
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On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:46:43 -0600, John <use_net@puresilver.org>
wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:26:42 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <nospamming@bite.me>
>wrote:
>
>>Ok so you have to wind it between shots. I thought we were talking about
>>good features. Mine has never run out of batteries. I carry an extra and
>>hardly ever use it.
>
> Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
>all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
>better than anything being produced by digi-cams.

So to stay in CB's league, you own no digicams, just an old
Leica?

>
>Regards,
>
> John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
> Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
 
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Where did anybody ever get eh idea that Leica made decent cameras. Hell the
Russians stil hand ground their lens until last year.

LOL

<kashe@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:5tedo05039dmmlipubom6uj25h4465gunu@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:46:43 -0600, John <use_net@puresilver.org>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:26:42 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <nospamming@bite.me>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Ok so you have to wind it between shots. I thought we were talking about
> >>good features. Mine has never run out of batteries. I carry an extra and
> >>hardly ever use it.
> >
> > Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
> >all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
> >better than anything being produced by digi-cams.
>
> So to stay in CB's league, you own no digicams, just an old
> Leica?
>
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
> > Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
>
 
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:42:24 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote:

>>
>> Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
>>all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
>>better than anything being produced by digi-cams.
>
> So to stay in CB's league, you own no digicams, just an old
>Leica?

I wish !

Actually I own a Fuji FinePix something or other. Supposed to
be 6MP but I think it's really 3~4. Another marketing gimmick. But it
does come in handy when I want to send a quick image of temporary
value or post something to my site. FYI, I did shoot a few images of
my kids. Had them printed by Chromatics. One of the images hangs at my
desk right next to a 5X7 contact print. Boy is there a difference !

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
 
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Yeah the digital one falls into your focused lens of the bifocals and the
chemical film one doesn't so y'all can't see the grain....LOL

"John" <use_net@puresilver.org> wrote in message
news:idjdo0h7btit94uuuk50g75bhdrl8dr96s@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:42:24 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
> >>all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
> >>better than anything being produced by digi-cams.
> >
> > So to stay in CB's league, you own no digicams, just an old
> >Leica?
>
> I wish !
>
> Actually I own a Fuji FinePix something or other. Supposed to
> be 6MP but I think it's really 3~4. Another marketing gimmick. But it
> does come in handy when I want to send a quick image of temporary
> value or post something to my site. FYI, I did shoot a few images of
> my kids. Had them printed by Chromatics. One of the images hangs at my
> desk right next to a 5X7 contact print. Boy is there a difference !
>
> Regards,
>
> John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
> Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
 
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In rec.photo.darkroom Gymmy Bob <nospamming@bite.me> wrote:
: Yeah the digital one falls into your focused lens of the bifocals and the
: chemical film one doesn't so y'all can't see the grain....LOL

You're not even coherent anymore.


: "John" <use_net@puresilver.org> wrote in message
: news:idjdo0h7btit94uuuk50g75bhdrl8dr96s@4ax.com...
: > On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:42:24 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote:
: >
: > >>
: > >> Yeah, you and Machine Gun Annie are always prepared. Funny but
: > >>all Cartier-Bresson needed was a Leica and his results are certainly
: > >>better than anything being produced by digi-cams.
: > >
: > > So to stay in CB's league, you own no digicams, just an old
: > >Leica?
: >
: > I wish !
: >
: > Actually I own a Fuji FinePix something or other. Supposed to
: > be 6MP but I think it's really 3~4. Another marketing gimmick. But it
: > does come in handy when I want to send a quick image of temporary
: > value or post something to my site. FYI, I did shoot a few images of
: > my kids. Had them printed by Chromatics. One of the images hangs at my
: > desk right next to a 5X7 contact print. Boy is there a difference !
: >
: > Regards,
: >
: > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
: > Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!



--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com
 
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Tom Phillips wrote:

> Digital "imaging" is in fact digital "sampling." Silicon
> sensors sample. Digital camera sensors are scanners. And
> Nyquist ***APPLIES* to your scanner and ALL scanners.
>
> Ask any engineer at HP. I have the name and number of one.
> Or you could just read his book...
>
>
>
>
>>Thus one needs higher sampling density than Nyquist sampling
>>to get all the detail. Take a look at:
>>http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/sampling1.html
>>
>>Roger Clark

I see you did not read the above page. While of course Nyquist
applies in some sense in every system, it applies *TO SAMPLING
IN PHASE WITH THE SIGNAL*!!!!! Spatial detail in an image
is not necessarily in phase with pixels in an electronic
sensor. Thus, if you sample an image at Nyquist sampling
when the signal is not in phase with the sampling, you will not
record all the detail in the image. Further, you will suffer
aliasing. The above page shows this.
In practice, you need to 2 to 3 times Nyquist sampling to record
information that is not in phase with the sampling.

Roger
 
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:26:31 -0500, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>John wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:45:10 -0500, Alan Browne
>> <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> You and I will have to disagree on that. My take is
>>>>
>>>> 1) It must be analog
>>>> 2) It must use a photographic medium for all imaging.
>>>
>>>That's an opinion. Not the truth.
>>
>>
>> I think that's why I stated "My take is". But then my opinion
>> makes more since than believing that a digital file is a photograph.
>
>"makes more since"?
>
>Hmm. Maybe photography is not your problem.

Excellent -- when you have no argument of your own, attack the
typo to deflect attention from tour own emptiness.

>
>A digital file is itself not a photograph. But a print I make from it
>definitely is. To say otherwise is foolish.

Too late, too little, and using self-defined terms, to boot.
How elegant.
 
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kashe@sonic.net wrote:

>>>
>>> I think that's why I stated "My take is". But then my opinion
>>>makes more since than believing that a digital file is a photograph.
>>
>>"makes more since"?
>>
>>Hmm. Maybe photography is not your problem.
>
>
> Excellent -- when you have no argument of your own, attack the
> typo to deflect attention from tour own emptiness.

If I posted that alone, I would agree that it was deflection. I actually don't
call out typos often, but that one threw me so hard that I wasn't sure what I
was reading. In any case, was mostly a humorous dig at John prior to the real
statement below. While John and I seriously disargree on the issue, he didn't
get all hot about the 'typo' and probably recognizes that my real point is:

>>A digital file is itself not a photograph. But a print I make from it
>>definitely is. To say otherwise is foolish.
>
>
> Too late, too little, and using self-defined terms, to boot.
> How elegant.

"using self-defined terms"? er, where did I do that?


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- [SI rulz] http://www.aliasimages.com/si/rulz.html
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
 
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 00:40:15 -0600, Frank Pittel
<fwp@warlock.deepthought.com> wrote:

>In rec.photo.darkroom Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote:
>: In article <4185A69C.1050407@but.us.chickens>,
>: David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
>: > I've been watching this debate unfold for a while now, and I have to say that
>: > you (Colin) are right. Your opposition seems to come from folks who just don't
>: > *like* digital and don't like the idea that it is about to supplant
>: > traditional wet photography.
>
>: The question is how will that happen? The thing I don't like is that as a
>: result of the unstable marketplace that caters to photo their is nothing like quality
>: control. Its worse now then its been since I've started doing photo.
>: Its not just film cameras, now you have to put up with manufacturers
>: playing games like you want a fully functional digital camera here
>: spend another 100 bucks and buy the software so you can convert
>: raw files. (Total BS)
>
>: >
>: > I should state my own prejudices up front: I don't particularly care for
>: > digital myself, which should make my arguments (as a devil's advocate, as it
>: > were) more believable. However, I'm sane enough to read the handwriting on the
>: > wall.
>
>: Don't kid yourself you have no clue.
>
>: > Don't know if it'll be a decade or sooner, but it's inevitable that
>: > digital is going to swamp everything else.
>
>: That can be stated about the whole world. War fare will be the scariest I believe.
>
>: > Just like the fact that practically
>: > nobody prints from lead type anymore (outside of a few boutique printers).
>:
>: > By the way, it's interesting to note how this discussion has become distorted,
>: > and people are no longer arguing the original premise. Pointing out the
>: > problems of digital image storage and retrieval in no way proves that digital
>: > photography is not "photography", nor does it prove either one superior to the
>: > other. And the anti-digital crowd never admits the point you made, that one
>: > can make infinite copies of a digital image with no degradation in quality,
>: > unlike optical images.
>: > I'm sure I'll regret posting this soon enough.
>
>: Digital copying certainly presents a very viscous ball of wax in terms of art
>: in general- that is regarding worth and copyright, if your vision is the selling point
>: unlimited copies sort of cheapens your value doncha think.
>
>I've always looked at my prints as being individual works art. No two are the
>same.

Poor quality control?
 
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kashe@sonic.net wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 00:40:15 -0600, Frank Pittel

>>I've always looked at my prints as being individual works art. No two are the
>>same.
>
>
> Poor quality control?

I guess you've never worked a darkroom print...

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
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In rec.photo.darkroom kashe@sonic.net wrote:
: On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 00:40:15 -0600, Frank Pittel
: <fwp@warlock.deepthought.com> wrote:

: >In rec.photo.darkroom Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote:
: >: In article <4185A69C.1050407@but.us.chickens>,
: >: David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
: >
: >: > I've been watching this debate unfold for a while now, and I have to say that
: >: > you (Colin) are right. Your opposition seems to come from folks who just don't
: >: > *like* digital and don't like the idea that it is about to supplant
: >: > traditional wet photography.
: >
: >: The question is how will that happen? The thing I don't like is that as a
: >: result of the unstable marketplace that caters to photo their is nothing like quality
: >: control. Its worse now then its been since I've started doing photo.
: >: Its not just film cameras, now you have to put up with manufacturers
: >: playing games like you want a fully functional digital camera here
: >: spend another 100 bucks and buy the software so you can convert
: >: raw files. (Total BS)
: >
: >: >
: >: > I should state my own prejudices up front: I don't particularly care for
: >: > digital myself, which should make my arguments (as a devil's advocate, as it
: >: > were) more believable. However, I'm sane enough to read the handwriting on the
: >: > wall.
: >
: >: Don't kid yourself you have no clue.
: >
: >: > Don't know if it'll be a decade or sooner, but it's inevitable that
: >: > digital is going to swamp everything else.
: >
: >: That can be stated about the whole world. War fare will be the scariest I believe.
: >
: >: > Just like the fact that practically
: >: > nobody prints from lead type anymore (outside of a few boutique printers).
: >:
: >: > By the way, it's interesting to note how this discussion has become distorted,
: >: > and people are no longer arguing the original premise. Pointing out the
: >: > problems of digital image storage and retrieval in no way proves that digital
: >: > photography is not "photography", nor does it prove either one superior to the
: >: > other. And the anti-digital crowd never admits the point you made, that one
: >: > can make infinite copies of a digital image with no degradation in quality,
: >: > unlike optical images.
: >: > I'm sure I'll regret posting this soon enough.
: >
: >: Digital copying certainly presents a very viscous ball of wax in terms of art
: >: in general- that is regarding worth and copyright, if your vision is the selling point
: >: unlimited copies sort of cheapens your value doncha think.
: >
: >I've always looked at my prints as being individual works art. No two are the
: >same.

: Poor quality control?

I see you've never done any quality wet darkroom printing.
--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.film+labs,rec.photo.darkroom (More info?)

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" wrote:
>
> Tom Phillips wrote:
>
> > Digital "imaging" is in fact digital "sampling." Silicon
> > sensors sample. Digital camera sensors are scanners. And
> > Nyquist ***APPLIES* to your scanner and ALL scanners.
> >
> > Ask any engineer at HP. I have the name and number of one.
> > Or you could just read his book...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Thus one needs higher sampling density than Nyquist sampling
> >>to get all the detail. Take a look at:
> >>http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/sampling1.html
> >>
> >>Roger Clark
>
> I see you did not read the above page.

Sorry, I just didn't have time.

> While of course Nyquist
> applies in some sense in every system, it applies *TO SAMPLING
> IN PHASE WITH THE SIGNAL*!!!!! Spatial detail in an image
> is not necessarily in phase with pixels in an electronic
> sensor. Thus, if you sample an image at Nyquist sampling
> when the signal is not in phase with the sampling, you will not
> record all the detail in the image. Further, you will suffer
> aliasing.

O.K. My sincere apologies that I misunderstood. I read these
very numerous posts too fast sometimes.

>The above page shows this.
> In practice, you need to 2 to 3 times Nyquist sampling to record
> information that is not in phase with the sampling.

Yes, that is very clear and correct. Although some other
authorities have stated 3 to 4 times.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.film+labs,rec.photo.darkroom (More info?)

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:49:25 -0600, Frank Pittel
<fwp@warlock.deepthought.com> wrote:

>As a proud owner of both a speed graphic and Zone VI the only thing gym bob
>has to be sorry about is that he doesn't have either of those fine cameras.

I should send him a contact print of one of my negative from
the Linhof. Imagine he'd never be the same.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.film+labs,rec.photo.darkroom (More info?)

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:07:21 -0700, Tom Phillips <nospam777@aol.com>
wrote:

>
>give it a rest.

Please ?


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Please remove the "_" when replying via email
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.film+labs,rec.photo.darkroom (More info?)

John wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:07:21 -0700, Tom Phillips <nospam777@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >give it a rest.
>
> Please ?

PLeeease, I really want to kill this thread!