Dissapointed with TH's attitude about game piracy

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Yup, CD-Key verification means very few games if any can be played multiplayer if they are pirate copies.

The point where Piracy becomes a criminal offence (at least here in the UK) is when you are doing it for profit - you have a market stall selling copies or something.

At this point trading standards will seize your stock etc and you could well appear in court for fraud - you have deceived your CUSTOMERS, it is not about the copyright holders.

All that in italics is not my argument - it is fact, at least here in the UK.

I'm not saying Piracy hasn't hurt developers. I'm not saying some developers haven't been partially influenced by it when they have decided to close up.

I just disagree that because you don't like something you can twist it into being something it is not - stealing or theft.

As for Titan Quest, a BIG part of their issue wasn't the pirate copies themselves, it was that their DRM was "too good". It caused the pirate copies to crash constantly, at random intervals, with no mention of it being due to DRM.

This lead to a massive public perception of "the game is unstable", which prevented people from buying it.

Look at it this way, those pirate copies were GOING to get out there, DRM or no. You can either accept it, and offer incentives for legit users (add ons and patches for registered users only, including minor content updates etc, cd-key for multiplayer use etc), using the pirate copies as advertisements for your game, or you can fight it, make the pirate copies crash lots, and they become a negative advertisement for your game.

If it is piracy, and piracy itself that is killing gaming, how do Stardock, makers of Galactic Civilisations and Sins of a Solar Empire, who use no DRM, survive? They should have been KILLED by piracy long ago....
 


The problem is that for some reason the general public does not seem convinced that piracy is a bad thing. They do not realise that real people, people that try to make money developing games, are really hurt by it.

The argument that many pirates would not have bought the game anyway, so no money was actually lost, does not fly because potential customers that are willing to part with their money to get their hands on the game, feel wronged in the moral sense: why should they pay, while many others are enjoying the game without paying for it. The fact that these pirates would not have bought the game ever, is immaterial to them. They still get the same thing for free while the honest customer is paying for it. That is not the way to keep people honest.

So I fully concur that in the sense of the law, piracy is piracy, a violation of copy right, and it is hurting real people and these people are loosing real money. How much exactly is unknown, but that it is more than a few thousand dollars, that much is obvious and so it is a very serious issue. Debating whether people are allowed to call it "theft" for the sake of bringing the point accross that piracy is really hurting people (because everyone understands that stealing something from someone is really hurting people) does not help one yota. I hope we can now consider this particular debate on how to call it in these discussions as closed.


This is actually illustrating just how much piracy is hurting the business. Obviously there are so many pirated copies out there that it severely impacted the image of the game. Apparently the developer should have made it very clear in advance what they'd actually done? Well if they had done that they would have shot themselves in the foot, because it would be really easy to start looking for the DRM in particular places in the code.


With this last paragraph I completely agree but you do not need the previous stuf to lead up to this. DRM is a dead-end street because until the killer technology is found that will prevent pirates from cracking a game, but will not limit regular customers in their enjoyment of the game in any way, DRM is what you call it: negative advertisement. The chances of getting that pirate killer technology right in one go is virtually nil, so the required investments are huge and the potential gains are unknown (they are significant, but how much is hard to project). Therefore DRM is a bad business decision, and the money should be invested in things that your paying customers care about, the exact strategy that Stardock is following (and they are now also using it as positive advertisement).
 
The fact that no DRM technique used to date has been effective at stopping piracy of a given piece of software should be reason enough to find a better way.

The problem is that many companies have gotten into a self destructive spiral. A little piracy encouraged them to try DRM. The DRM annoyed some paying users who started pirating, which encouraged them to try stricter DRM, which pissed off more people who started pirating, which encouraged the company to use even stricter DRM, which pissed off more people... etc.

I am anti piracy to some degree, but I am anti DRM to a much larger one. Companies cannot stop piracy, but they have complete control over whether or not they have DRM which just encourages piracy. It seems to me to be a no brainer.
 


A few things I want to work off of this. I bet our new games for the PC would be $30~$40 IF they didn't waste, thats right even I consider it a waste, to implement and purchase the copy protections for the games. Therefor people on the fine balance of deciding to pirate or buy would more likely learn towards buying it. Of course I could be wrong but this would be an assumption. Also about your mention on release quality, ha do I got a nice little short story. Ever hear of Hellgate:London? Well I purchased it (since the dev's rode the "we made the diablo series" wagon) making it seem like this game was going to be the diablo 3. So I was in the beta and couldn't get too far since release was around the corner. So I get the game install it, tons of people crying about how the game has many bugs. Then later on a patch was released to help a bit. You know the numbering of that patch? 0.6... WTF? It suddenly came to me that what I bought was nothing more than an "extended" beta of a game that was severely undercooked. But here comes the kicker. Patch 1.0 finally roles around(about 3 months after official release) and the dev's Flagship Studio want you to SUB if you want the 'new' content features offered in the 1.0 patch. So #1 they sold me a game that wasn't even finished(I consider a game releasable/finished by noting the standard version everyone signifies as 1.0) And to put the icing on the cake they want me to subscribe if I wanted to take advantage of the extra features of the 1.0 patch. What a bunch of bull, Its the only PC game to date I have purchased and truly shelved and haven't played with and having no desire to go back to.
 
^ that's unacceptable, you should complain to them or something
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I did, in a not so nice way and got banned for 2 weeks from their forums. Either way there was nothing I could do. I checked e-bay and the POS's were hardly selling for $20 ending bid price. The game was cool, the first time through, but after that there was literally nothing to do, except maybe run around and wait for neat glitch to happen. I believe during peak hours the game usually has at most around 2k~3k people on at once. And about 1/3 I think are sub'd
 
Sell it then, any money back is better than none, right?
Or trade it into a game store or something

Yes 400th post
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This is true, lol I remember when I went to go buy it the manager (ironically my cousin) tried selling me the super duper blow another $10 for useless garbage edition. Bad thing is I'm sure they already have a box of this game still packaged and going nowhere slow. I don't think gamestop takes PC games back 🙁

edit just noticed when I clicked your more info, it says view 'his' website etc, whats up with that Tom's web manager? :hello:
 
hardware level copy protection is the easiest to break it was on a few forums. a company that made a sound editor, had their program use hardware info to link it's self to the computers hardware. the program cost like $7000 and it sucked as adobe audition had the same features and was more user friendly

even though no one liked that program, cracking groups were able to crack it with in a day. and a few people pirated it and it dies out because it sucked that much. (if you were reading up on it at the time that sound editor came out then you know which one i am talking about)



and the statement that drm deters people because of the hassle that is not true

when a company spends $500 thousand dollars to DRM their game, the drm only bothers 2-3 crackers then those crackers remove the drm and pirate it so the 1-2 thousand that pirate the game will never be bothered by the drm.

games are also sucking more and more



many game developers focus more on visuals than actual gameplay. if they base a game around visuals then the gameplay will generally suck

and if you cant max the game out on your pc then all your stuck with is crappy visuals and crappy game play which gives 100% no reason to buy the game

for me, the only games i buy are the ones that offer demos that offer a good example of the gameplay and no limitations on the demo




the games i stay away from are the ones that offer a demo then put a time limit on the demo. those games generally suck

one of the biggest mistakes i made was wasting $20 on a game called microflight

the demo was fun but it had a 5 minute time limit so it was only fun for the first 5 minutes.

when i got the game, the full version was fun for like a hour or 2 then got boring as with in a hour or 2 you pretty much do everything there is to do and it got boring


demos are good, time limited demos are bad, if you see a game thats time limited in the demo and the game sucks, don't even try to pirate it. just forget it exists and that will send a message to the company that there jerks


DRM is a waste of money and only forces legit users to pirate, and forces legit users that know nothing of pirating, to learn it and pirate
 
Pretty much nobody buys back or accepts returns on PC games. CD Keys saw to that. They can't resell it because if you cracked it and returned it, you are already using the CD key that came with it.

This is another thing that has been hurting the PC game industry. The lack of ability to buy or sell used games. Though this is a much lesser issue than DRM.
 
I don't understand all this crap about drms causing problems..and starforce being the ultimate evil!
If your system is clean and you don't have deamon tools or other "hack-a-round" software running you'll never see a problem.
I've never run a cracked game in all my gaming life!
That's why they make demos...if the demo is good then I'll buy the game when it releases. If not, then I'll wait for it to come down in price and try my luck at it then!
It's you asses that run hacked games that make life tough for the honest...people that pay for their games.
I remember having to spend 10 days trying to get my keys replaced after some **** stole my keys with a keygen!
If you can afford a 1500.00 pc to game with you can afford the 40.00 game.
nough said!
 
Dear Johnny,

If you've read anything that I've posted here the last couple of years you know what my position is on pirating software so I am not going to repeat it here, you can check it all over these forums.

Just as people like yourself feel wronged by others who just take stuf for free that you pay for, other people feel wronged because certain publishers think it is ok to put software on their machines that screws up their machine, or other software that they have on it. And no, that is not limited to software that is only used for hacking, in fact that kind of software does not exist. That software has perfectly legal uses but it can also be used for cracking games or other software protection schemes, and as many americans say "guns do not kill people, people kill people" this same reasoning applies to software that can be misused.

It is already alarming when publishers force their games not to work when they detect certain software on a machine, but as long as a proper warning is issued beforehand, it is their prerogative to do so. It is quite something else, to install software bits in the OS kernel or elsewhere that may screw up the OS or other applications, or worse, create a security leak on the machine.

That is what people have against DRM and quite simply, they are right. That is not the way, and today you see a few small publishers and developers picking up on it. Hopefully more will follow.

Let's not drag ghosts from the past into this anymore and so we can stop worrying about StarForce.. that is sooo 2006.
 



most of those tools have many legit uses. there designed to be legit

virtual drives are the only connection between my main os and the os on my virtual machine. when i want files transfered, i save them to a iso then mount them and then use the other os in the virtual machine to rip the info from the image like it would a cd

but there some games that wont run when they detect it

also never put drm on a crappy game, if they do, no one will buy it.

DRM is like doing a weakening spell on your game that makes it's stats -80

drm is mainly to deter people from buying the game.
 
Johnny, Daemon tools is used for mounting virtual copies of CDs and DVDs. Although you can steal copies of games independently and use daemon tools to install them, anyone who really steals games has already stolen better disc emulation software. In addition, most games tell you that your CD is not in the drive when using daemon tools.
 
I used to buy games all the time to try them out then I bought COD4 which would not run on my machine. I could not return it and Tech Support could not fix the problem. After 6 weeks, I found a reference in a forum that COD4 DRM would not allow you to play on a SATA DVD drive if it saw an IDE CD drive. I disconnected the CD drive and the game ran. I should not have had to do that.

When DRM hurts the people who buy the product, it's a problem.

It hurts the companies too as I never impulse buy games anymore. Before I buy a game now I Google it's name and "DRM" to find out how bad the DRM is. I also check to see if it has Vista64 issues as I have switched to Vista64. I did not buy BioShock because of its licensing even though normally I would have. There is probably a dozen games I have not bought because I now think about and research every game I buy. That's $500 out of the game developer's pockets just from me and only because of DRM.

And it's a larger loss than that as I host our groups weekly LAN game. There are 9 in the group of which a half dozen show up on any game day. We have a voting system for new games and DRM is now a factor. Each game that gets voted down is $450 (9 X $50) in lost sales. Even if a game makes the cut, we now buy one copy and test it out on all the machines, then a second to test out multiplayer and only then do we buy the other copies. If the game sucks, we are only out $50 or $100 if multy sucks.

Our current games? BF2 (disk in drive), Supreme Commander and FA (no DRM), Sins of a Solar Empire (no DRM), Rise of Nations (disk in drive), Starcraft (no DRM) and a ton of Steam games (CS,FT2,Flatout,ect) (no DRM just a login).

I understand that companies want to maximize sales. I find CD keys to be just fine. When it's easier to find and download a crack then it is to buy the game and fight its DRM, the companies are now loosing even more sales. I understand completely why some people are pushed into piracy.

When judging evil, between piracy and DRM, DRM is the greater Evil.

Starforce and ScuRom can go to H#ll.
Falcon688

 
i understand cd keys as they prevent little 2-3 year old children from copying the latest PC game and giving it to their friends in daycare or something

but i hate those extremely long cd keys the serial number space for games leaves millions of trillions of combinations, no game will ever sell that much. stop making the cd keys so long.

it is easier to have a keygen enter in a cd key for you then to have to type in a 5 million digit cd key that you will most likely make a mistake in typing

make them long enough for a 90 billion combination space (thats more than enough for a cd key )
 


It also prevents people from ages 3+ from legitimately going online if the game has multi-payer features. Which to some guys is "what it's all about" therefor making the pirated game useless. Some games even go the extra mile (I think Doom 3 expansion does this), and detects if your key is ligit online before you even can play multi or single player. Of course an easy unplug of the network cable and your fine, but its a pain. Until of course you get the no CD-key crack for it. But at any rate I believe games should have zero copy protection but have a cd-key.

And honestly how hard is it to enter a CD-Key? You make it seem as though your enduring a strong man contest. Not only that but for the most part I usually don't have to enter in that CD-key more than once. Of course unless you *cough* erm "anyone" is trying to use a key generator and finding out which keys work and which ones don't.
 
cd keys are good but they don't need to be that long

most pirates use cracked servers so invalid cd keys are no problem, cd keys as copy protection is understandable but when there really long, there annoying to type in.

making a keygen for a 6 digit serial is just as easy as making one for a 70 digit cd key

it doesnt deter pirates by making them really long. just make the serial long enough to handle how many copies of the game you might sell
 


You don't floss do you.
 
I read that most game publishers make 90% of all sales durring the first 30 days.
Advert "pre release sales" earns the highest per copy price and gets a good deal of people who want the product ASAP.

If a publisher want's more profit then stop using -and paying for- DRM as after that magic 30 days it really does not matter much.

I have most of every game made in the past 10 years for my LAN and all of them have no-cd patchs which I d/l they day I installed them. Each machine has a folder to keep the exe if an update for the games comes out.
The games are in thier box's gathering dust but otherwise as good as the day I brought them home.

I am one of those persons that disslike DRM on any lvl...more so in the Vista OS which I have zero need for.
 

Yeah it really fries me too when honest, paying customers have the nerve to complain about being treated like criminals.
 

Yep. Most theaters will refund your money if you ask for a refund within a certain amount of time into the movie. Most places won't if you watch the whole thing and then bitch about it, but I've had no problems getting refunds in the past.


What would be the slippery slope?


Because if every single pirate just didn't play the games at all, the industry would be doing way better... oh wait.
 


You typed "o wait" because you actually continued to read the remainder of the thread? Because indeed, if people would not pirate games, then other people that actually want to pay for it, do no longer feel cheated upon and would gladly part with their money. And yes, the result would be that the industry would be doing better.

Nevertheless the industry would be doing way way much better if they would invest their money in what their paying customers actually want (great games) instead of wasting it on DRM.
 


Calling it something it isn't only weakens your argument. When you say one thing that is completely incorrect, it brings into question every other point you make. You might as well call it murder in an attempt to illustrate that it hurts people.



This is actually illustrating just how much piracy is hurting the business. Obviously there are so many pirated copies out there that it severely impacted the image of the game. Apparently the developer should have made it very clear in advance what they'd actually done? Well if they had done that they would have shot themselves in the foot, because it would be really easy to start looking for the DRM in particular places in the code.
Click to expand...

The game really should have quit with some message about the copy protection failing, rather than doing an impression of a buggy unstable game. You wouldn't have had more piracy - its not like those that found it crashing lots went out and bought it to make it crash less - they just didn't bother with it. The negative advertisement from the crashing pirate copies, the developers themselves admit harmed sales.

With this last paragraph I completely agree but you do not need the previous stuf to lead up to this. DRM is a dead-end street because until the killer technology is found that will prevent pirates from cracking a game, but will not limit regular customers in their enjoyment of the game in any way, DRM is what you call it: negative advertisement. The chances of getting that pirate killer technology right in one go is virtually nil, so the required investments are huge and the potential gains are unknown (they are significant, but how much is hard to project). Therefore DRM is a bad business decision, and the money should be invested in things that your paying customers care about, the exact strategy that Stardock is following (and they are now also using it as positive advertisement).
Click to expand...

In the last paragraph you were saying the Developer should do his best to intertwine the DRM and hide its actions, now you are saying DRM is pointless (which I agree with!) and Stardock are doing the right thing!

Piracy is a bad thing. DRM is a bad thing. **** games rehashed from more **** games are a bad thing. All these are killing the PC gaming industry, and to be honest, the DRM is driving the piracy to an extent - the release groups want to show off their cracking skills, and without DRM (just serials, or activation like Steam) these guys would lose alot of their interest.

Piracy is rife on Xbox360 and Wii, and the DS. Yet it has not "killed" these platforms 😉
 


Apparently that's how it works for you personally. Calling it something that a lot of people actually perceive as an honorary title does not work either. The key element here is, that with piracy you are hurting real people that put a lot work in making something that you consume. We agree on this so let's try to get that message across. Let's stop the labeling debate. I am content with not using the word stealing for piracy.



I do not believe that is in contradiction. If you apply DRM then you better be quiet as to what it is exactly that is being done, but whatever it is, it is not going to work, period.
 
But it's so much easier to release crap, get a few rubes to buy it, then pack up shop and blame piracy for horrid sales so the investors you screwed aren't angry with you.

I should dig out my boxes of crap games I've purchased and been stuck with after loading. Some never worked at all, but you can't return them.
 
^ That's pretty true, remember Hellgate London "From the makers of Diablo"
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...I think I said my share about 'that'. 'It' isn't even worth of being called a game :pfff: . But since were on the topic anyone interested in buying a copy of Hellgate London? :sol:
 
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