Dissapointed with TH's attitude about game piracy

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FaceLifter... Just because people here are against forms of DRM, does not make them the pirates that you insinuate they are... I buy my own games, and truth be told I am more than happy when developers release the patches that remove secure rom. It is a pain in the arse, and I dont think that the issue is easily justified.

The only reason developers release games with DRM and the knowledge that it will be broken, is that they hope that during the time that the hackers are working out the cracks, enough people will buy the game out of impatience to play.
Now this idea I think, like others here, is misguided. A lot of games without any form of DRM (Oblivion for one) Have sold incredibly well and made the developers a lot of money. Yes there will always be piracy, but the only people to feel the effects of DRM are the original customers and that seems rather counter productive.

A little trust in the gaming audience will go a long way..

 
Completely agree with your posts on DRM, dreadhead and mattc, except for some minor details (BioShock is not proteced by Starforce, it is SecuROM)



Let's not put our hope in trust too much, it is pretty obvious that there's lots of people around that do not care for it, and a much larger population is susceptible to getting games for free instead of paying for it if it is available for free.

It is also about common business sense. See what is happening in the music industry where people that download a lot of "free" music (which is not illegal in all countries btw as opposed to downloading games which is illegal everywhere) also start to increase spendings in music.

I agree with the point made on Steam as well, people don't care about DRM put into Steam because enough value is added for legit customers and idiotic things like needing a CD in a drive, are eliminated.
 
Just because it is easier to steal than to earn a living, does it make it morally right to steal?

Food for thought.

I often say to people: go for piracy if you are willing to work for free. It is only fair. Otherwise, go alternative. Play boardgames instead.
 
I never made this post thinking that I was going to battle the DRM issue. Some of you are attacking me like I'm defending DRM. I know that some people use DRM as an excuse and for the same reason some hackers feel the need to release these games, but the fact remains that the vast majority of PC gamers that download games are only doing it to steal. I agree that DRM is distasteful - what I don't agree with is stealing because of it. I believe there are far more powerful ways to influence the publisher than by stealing it. If DRM is part of the product then don't buy that product, send the publisher a letter but don't steal it.

Here's a more intellegent way to battle the issue of DRM. First of all, you can return any pc game that comes with software that you weren't made aware of at the time of purchase, all you have to do is talk to the manager. In other words, if you buy a game and then find out that the publisher has installed software that you were not made aware of, and I mean, is not explicitly written on the box. Then you will always be able to return it. You may not get the part-timer or even the manager to allow the return but you will get the district or regional manager to allow it, 100% of the time. Just make sure that you some information from the internet explaining the software you are talking about. If thousands of people did this then a real message would be sent. The retailers would start to pressure the publishers to stop using DRM. I've seen retailers pressure publishers into recalling product for similar issues. This would be the quickest way to kill DRM.

The way some of you are talking about battling DRM now has no rational reasoning behind it. It's like one country bombing another because they got bombed for getting bombed, think about it.

This is the biggest issue PC gaming will ever have to face with, and I wish more of you would stand up for it.
 
FaceLifter,
You made a post saying that you don't agree with THG's attitude on game piracy. That attitude/position is that piracy is no right and people shouldn't do it, but that DRM is almost as bad and not the answer. So to say that you disagree with that would either mean that you think piracy is good (when I first read the title of your post I thought thats what you meant) or that you think DRM is a legit way to battle piracy.
 
I love how facelifter thinks (in one of his posts) that his job gave him some special insight into this.
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I could just as easily claim that my years of experience playing games and my years of professional experiences in the IT field troubleshooting computer problems (I have had numerous jobs in the IT field, the most pertinent of which saw me in charge of roughly 300 computers and a few of our servers at a university, doing just about *everything* from training and purchasing equipment to troubleshooting and building and so on) gives me more insight into the problem than your average Joe.
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I was only trying to give some insight into the return rate of PC games at the biggest games retailer in North America. I'm sure that having managed multiple stores and districts in this company I would have more insight into the issue of PC game returns than the average person. What really cracks me up is how you go on to write a whole paragraph on why you have more insight than we do. Like your the only one in the IT industry that plays games.

So the pirates won that battle, and the only losers here are the game producers, who lose money due to piracy, and the legitmate customers, who have to deal with annoyances due to DRM.
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You obviously haven't gotten any more insight from your IT job on this issue. The only losers are not the legit consumers, it all of us, because more and more publishers are turning down PC games in favour of console games. If this keeps up then the majority of PC games releases will be indy games and that will not be a victory at all. That will mean that everyone will lose!

You did make a good point about Steam however.
 
You made a post saying that you don't agree with THG's attitude on game piracy. That attitude/position is that piracy is no right and people shouldn't do it, but that DRM is almost as bad and not the answer. So to say that you disagree with that would either mean that you think piracy is good (when I first read the title of your post I thought thats what you meant) or that you think DRM is a legit way to battle piracy.
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You're right, I could have worded it better. But I have to say, this has turned into quite the thread!!
 
I think your title and initial post gave people the impression that you're not really in touch with the THG's attitude on piracy(both editors/staff and members). If you read through enough post you'll notice that almost everytime people talk about pirating software they get slammed down. For example I recall one thread where somebody was asking for help getting a game to run. Eventually he posted a screen shot that showed it to be a pirated version. Everybody refused to offer any more help after that and began to bash him.
 
Sorry, rather than saying I could have worded it better. I should have said that I could have put more thought into it. But my opinion hasn't changed. I still feel that TH needs to put more emphasis on this topic. As far as I can see their attitude not position, as these are two different things, is that they would rather just comment on it and not take a stance. I understand what their position is but I think they need to voice it more. When they talk about DRM they have a responsibility to discuss the other side of the issue. It's unfair to discuss the impact of DRM without discussing the impact that piracy has.
 
Why would that person think this is a good place to post looking for help? Better yet, how many people watch their podcast or view the main site without ever coming to the forums? I applaud them for taking a stance and as I said in an earlier post I apologize for not reading more of their posts on the topic. I have to say though, I was trying to stir the pot with my thread post. TH is in a really good position to educate people on this issue, and seeing how important an issue it is I feel that they need to.
 
I think that the issue of whether piracy is good or bad or whether people should do it or not is pretty much a non-issue. A few years ago, around the time of Napster, it was more of a debatible issue but today not so much. I think the topic that should be focussed on is 'how do we battle piracy without killing the honest customer?'. I don't think the members of THG need to be educated in how piracy is bad.
 



Lol, my friend worked on SIN Episodes as a concept and 3d artist. He moved all the way to Dallas TX from chicago to work for them and about a year and a half later the company croaked. It was cool getting to see game stuff before it came out though and seeing all the stuff he modelled and textured. I still have a bunch of concept art and screen shots he emailed me. He's pretty disappointed because they got taken over by a company that does Yahoo games type of stuff, simple puzzle games etc. So he isn't too happy with that. Going from designing cool character models, concepts to glorified pong and tetris clones.
 
But yes, upon the death of a company the whole internet check thing worrys me. The limited number of installs worrys me (I reformat my PC's once a year). I just think there has got to be some other way to combat piracy then basically giving the legal consumer a product with limited control. This isnt an arcade, i buy a game I buy it 100 percent mine forever, not I buy it for a few installs then i have to buy another one. Like as mentioned before, pirates can find ways around the protections, only people affected are legal users. Im gonna have a field day when eventually switching to vista, isnt there a whole buncha BS involved with re installing that OS?
 
so basically wat the OP is saying is all review companies etc. should put out a positive opinion on DRM, just because......yeah OK.
 


That's kind of not true at all, actually...

 
honestly, drm=a gay hindrance. they might as well just drop drm, because it's cracked within a week of release anyway. jacking up prices etc. There's no point really. Just give the game out with ye old cd key. and block the server without the key. for single player, good luck. I have downloaded a few games, but in the past 4 or so years i've never played them through, just enough to demo the full version really, I buy games i like. I had a downloaded version of nwn1, i liked it after the first 20 minutes or so, so i went and bought the platinum version, easy as that. half life 2, played part of the first level to test it on hardware and what not, see if i liked it, ended up not working right with my controller and what not (didn't run well on hardware at the time), So my brother went and got it for a console cuz he thought it was good, i haven't played it since then though, want to get it on pc. 😛
there are a lot of honest people out there, and piracy is an issue... however i personally AM more likely to buy a game if i can test it out, hence why I'm no longer playing consoles... they just have to short a shelf life, and are harder to sell for decent value used than a pc is. another example, diablo 1, way back when. I owned the full copy. and didn't have an internet connection, i figured out how to modify my registry so i didn't need the cd after install because my cd got scratched to hell... but i ended up reformatting, and rather than just burn a copy of my friends, i just bought a new one. 2 copies of diablo 1. I could have cracked diablo 2 as well (though admitedly not on my own) but i decided to go buy it because it was awesome. expansion pack too. i mean, It's a never ending cycle with any time of media... even with the printing of books... Thankfully the steam service seems to be streamlining everything quite nicely and will possibly be the savior of all the headaches, and in my opinion, is the first giant in the new world of how games are distributed and owned... and to reiterate a resounding truth. drm= a pain in the arse. maybe fingerprint readers could be the final solution.
there, that's my 2 cents.
 


Now, now, Rob. I appreciate your viewpoints and most of the time I agree with what you say in your videos. However, you shouldn't be making blanketing statements like this. True, there are some that download and never pay for games. Chances are though, that these are people that wouldn't buy games regardless of whether they could pirate them or not. I for one, will download a game that I know little about and if I deem the game worthy, then I'll buy it. This is because I have a limited budget and can't afford to be blowing money on every game with a cool cover that comes out. Game demos don't paint a good picture for the quality of games, either. If I had to choose whether to buy CoD4 based on the demo, I would have never bought it. It was only because I downloaded and played it first that I decided to buy it. In the past year I've probably bought 20 or so PC titles and there are plenty more like me out there.

In summary, its not nice to give out blanketing statements saying that people are like this because they do that. Not everyone is the same as you nor does everyone have the same budget that you have for buying games. If we are buying games then you should take our word for it and respect that at least we are doing our part to support the gaming industry, unlike the millions that ONLY pirate and never go out and buy games.
 
Intrusive copyright protection sucks.

As for not enjoying games as much if you download them as if you pay for them that's utter BS.

I've been buying PC games since my Spectrum ZX in the late 80's. Nothing and I repeat NOTHING is worse than buying a buggy and bad game. Some games I used to buy back then didn't even load and they weren't cheap either!

So take your copyright protection talk elsewhere.

I don't mind paying for a good game but the vast majority of games aren't worth buying.

If they priced games according to how good they are then things would be different. But paying the same for a great game as for a bad game makes no sense. It's like if you could buy a Ferrari for the same price as a Ford. Makes no sense.
 
To the last couple of posters:

It is your prerogative to say that you only want to buy games that you've been able to test. It is the reason why many developers make demo's. It is not your right, and in fact it is against the law to download an illegal copy of the full game and use that to test.

Just don't play it at all, and only buy games that have demo's that allow you to test. A lot of people are doing that already, which is why you see more and more demo's coming out.

I fully agree with anyone complaining about invasive copyright protection measures and DRM. I am not against DRM by definition, I just do not want it to screw up my system and as a legit customer I do not want to be hampered by it in any way. But no way you can use this as an excuse to download and play illegal copies.

I'm not sure if this a generation thing or not but I find the lack of self-constraint that a lot of people exhibit (yes, also on these forums) remarkable. Just don't play if you don't like, how else is the capitalist system going to work properly without abusing legitimate customers?
 
Ok, I'll put my .01 in. I'm not a computer expert (it took me 2 days to build my home PC and make it work) and for the most part I only play 2 FPS games on my PC. I am, in other words, your average consumer of PC video games.
1) I have no idea what DRM is and why it is a problem. I have loaded many games (I have kids) on my PC and not run into any problems. If it is some sort of spy ware then I would obviously be against it but at this point what's one more peace of spyware ( I use google desktop) as long as it does not effect my PC's performance.
2) There is really no justification for pirating. You either go to the store and pay or pay to download a game or it is stealing. Yes, the game may suck but ultimately it is my responsibility to do the research prior to buying anything. Also, I have no idea nor do I care how games are made so in order for me to continue playng games someone has to make them. I doubt any developers want to work for free.
3) I really do not care if I have to insert a CD prior to playing. It takes about 10 seconds. Yes, it can be a pain but why let something like that ruin your gaming experience. And yes, most of the people I regularly play online with think it is funny that I still use the CD.

and lastly

4) I have played BF2 for (when did it come out?) awhile and never lost or ruined a disk. I do have 2 but that was so my son could play at the same time. Putting limitations on the number of times a game is loaded should not be a problem. My anti-virus software allows 3 installs and that seemed very reasonable to me. I know (or at least read) that some of you like to reinstall windows etc. but is it really necessary? Remember, I am not an expert or enthusiast. I have run my Dell for 3 years and never experienced an OS issue or computer slow down so I cannot imagine why I would go through the trouble to periodically reinstall everything .

I guess this all seems really pretty simple. The publishers should just let the games run without any OS manipulation or CD's in the drives. The consumer needs to realize that - like it or not - limited installs, key verification etc are the things that protect the publishers/developers investments. They are in this to make money which I have always assumed was an understood and appreciated concept, maybe not.

Let's face it, the people who pirate games and/or applications are going to find a way to do it no matter what the developers do and despite what they say they are not going to buy the games after they "try" them. Regardless of anything else, the people who pirate will find a reason to continue justifying it.
 
The consumer needs to realize that - like it or not - limited installs, key verification etc are the things that protect the publishers/developers investments. They are in this to make money which I have always assumed was an understood and appreciated concept, maybe not.
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The problem is that these measures do not work at all and if anything make the problem worse. There isn't one example of a DRM protected game that hasn't been cracked. I really think that these measures against piracy are a lazy, yet costly way of going about it. Look at what MMOs (specifically WoW) have been able to do without DRM; Peolpe not only buy these games in record numbers but then pay a monthly subscription on top of that. So I think publishers could come up with a more positive method of encouraging users to buy games legally.
 


Im like the posters above this post, i will download the full game to try before i go out and buy the full game...

the biggest problems with demos for me is that im on a20MB cable internet and if i want a demo i have to download it from Fileplanet that caps me to 20Kbps and it takes a few hours to get a demo.... i use news groups to download my full games and i get full 2000Kbps and it takes about 40 min to download the full game rather than the few hours it would take to download the demo of some sh*t website like fileplanet.
 
I have to say...I'm somewhat regretful I made this post about THG, now I wish I made it strictly about piracy!!

I don't care whether you buy games or not, I care whether you steal them. Some of you seem to really take it personally that I feel piracy is a bad thing...I'm surprised that while some of you attack my opinion on piracy none of you have tried to claim that it isn't hurting the industry, which just adds fuel to argument that you guys don't give a #$%$ and that's the real reason why you steal...
 
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