Dissapointed with TH's attitude about game piracy

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I've been buying and playing PC games for a long time. I own all 3 current generation consoles as well. Though, I must say I like PC games better, in their type and play style. Consoles offer me a different play style (ie FF style RPGs, etc) that aren't often found on the PC or group play with some friends when they come over to hang out.

I've long used Images of my games as a matter of convinence and speed instead of the CDs/DVDs. Though I personally consider this a legit use, I'm sure with the craze over piracy, I could still be charged with a crime. Just look at the what many music industry companies believe... ripping a CD you own to use on your computer or music player is stealing. Speaking of which, I keep a music library of most all the music CDs I own too - it's nice to use random/shuffle and hear old favorites you wouldn't have decided to listen to otherwise on top of not having to physically swap CDs or use a mutli-disc changer, etc.

I fully agree that DRM for the greater part is just junk. Pirate groups break easily and thus people downloading those copies are unaffected - the individuals downloading the games do not need any level of education or technology knowledge beyond some basic reading (if that) to play the pirated version of the game. Thus, the DRM just hurts the legit users that pay for the game. They cause long load up times while you start the game to do CD-Checks (ie StarForce - I've onced had to wait 45 seconds just for StarForce), installation problems and sometimes even conflicts that cause BSOD rendering the game unplayable. Of course in this case you cannot return the game and I turn to the crack scene for a no-CD/DVD or whatever exe. Standard DRM simply does not work as intended. If the DRM actually prevented piracy, I would care a bit less about the problems it may cause me. However, that is far from the case. I play MMO's too, so I am 100% not opposed to paying to play a good game.

I also use Steam now days and Direct2Drive - I realize these have DRM in some form. However, I don't mind as long as it is transparent once I have installed the game and it does not cause any problems. They also provide me with some of the same reasons why I have previously made Images of game's I own (faster re-installs, faster load times without disc, no disc to hassle with). I personally like these models, but do not believe they solve piracy. I've read about and seen ways to break both.

My personal view of the largest issue and one the game industry is unwilling to accept is simply: make better games. It is not that there are not good, even great games being produced; but there is also I lot of crap - a lot of it being pushed to market. Sometimes the company has a realistic projecting of what the junk will make because they understand it's place in the market (often clone games with 100 titles of the exact same game with different 'skins' or movie related games). These often fail or would be considered a failure otherwise - I doubt these are being pirated much to begin with. There are times though, a developer believes in their title with great zeal, after all they have invested sometimes years in it and it may be there dream to produce the title. If it fails, they need / want to blame something and piracy is a easy one to blame especially with what I find to often be greatly misleading or falsified statistics. One such case would be that company that sued Epic over their Unreal Engine 3 lateness for basically all the profits that Gears of War made. I think I remember the title but I don't want to say in case I am incorrect. The history of the title in question basically set the game development at between 8-12 years depending on when you consider development started but it was the "dream" of the developer to make the game so I'm sure they've attempted it many times and stopped, then restarted. It's not that the title did not have any promise in itself, but all of it's potential promise also meant many difficulties in design and concept to reality. They needed to blame somebody when they were not paid by the publisher for being late, they chose Epic because they couldn't blame piracy when they had not released. Though their charges were true to a limited extent, it wasn't worth Gears of War, nor did the fact they did not use the terms of the contact they had with Epic in licensing UE3 to resolve the issue when it came up favorable, they only had a problem when they weren't paid and saw that Epic had made money. And they wanted it.

Why do I feel this way? Back in the days I was in a marketing course and learned a lot. It never really applied to gaming at the time because there were no advertisements on TV or anything outside of the few gaming mags out there like PC Gamer. There was a really hot title being released and I just downloaded the demo. I played it and then thought, "Wow, this is the worse game demo ever." The game was bad... it shouldn't have had a demo to demonstrate to people how bad it was. If not for the demo, I would have gladly paid $50 for the game before realizing it sucked. It's the same for say a movie trailer - it needs to make you want to go watch the movie, even if it is a bad movie, the trailer needs to be good. New and fresh ideas are hard to come by - I know this. But you do not need a new or fresh idea to make a good product - that comes from following thru on the FUNdamental elements first and foremost. The best graphics and effects do not ensure an enjoyable game and many in the industry have forgotten this.

I've ranted too much but I will close with this. There are about 4 main types of people as it concerns purchasing items or pirating/stealing them be it games, music, or cars and radios, even drugs and violence:
1) The legit person that will basically always buy their games, etc.
2) The person that will often buy their games but for various reasons also pirates some of their games.
3) The person that will basically never buy the games they play.
4) The person that downloads everything, regardless of intent to use or play the game. They like to do it because they can, or feel compelled to do so compulsively.

The industry officials assume only #1 and #2 really exist. They believe #3 and #4 are actually also #2, but that is not true. Until they acknowledge that #3 and #4 are out there they will never have a reasonable expectation of their market demographics.

Next is #5, the console gamer and #6 the multi-platform gamer and their sub parts. Being mainly a PC gamer but easily falling into the multi-platform gamer category as I own everything, I will state the obvious - if there is a game released to multiple platforms, I'm only buying it for one of them. If I favor the console version for some reason (in a 3D shooter, some of the reasons often pointed out are: better assurance of no cheaters, if PC and console can play together, they always give consoles auto-aim *which is a reason why I don't play these to start with*, you know it works). Also, a direct reason for PC vs Console sells differences is pricing of hardware. Consoles run between $400-800 real price of ownership and the cost continues to drop. $400-600 is like a high-end video card in the PC world and you need to keep up with the times to some degree. In the end, these cost mean less money to spend on PC games or at least a higher overall cost to play them. When the first XBox came out and some analysis said it was the beginning of the end of PC-gaming as we knew it, people laughed, but it's slowly becoming true.

I by no means intend to say I do not think piracy is a problem, however, I believe that it is greatly blown out of proportion by the industries involved for many reasons favorable to them as corporations. Instead of wasting their money on their zero-sum war against piracy that does not work they should be spending it on improving their games or straight up saving that money. It is sad to hear a game company go out of business, but blaming piracy is just their falsified reasoning. The ability to make such reasoning is often why they "fight" piracy though. Many great game developers and publishers have gone out of business well before the "mass" mainstream piracy we see today. An example is Interplay (a publisher) - but they held some of the great titles and developers that are continuing to lead the market (Fallout, Baldgar's Gate, BioWare, Shrouded Isles, etc). Why did they fail? They loss studios and started producing not so good games, and they faced strong competition from the era of larger companies like EA. Some companies/devs are failing for the same reason today but rather blame something else than themselves and their failure to adapt to the market.

When will the false battle against piracy end? When it makes them money. Why are online stores selling DRM-free music now when DRM was such a hot idea? #1, it's a great selling point to be DRM free given all of it's problem (ever lose your iTunes music and then realize you cannot download them again without charge?) #2, because it killed battery life so many media player companies pushed for it. Battery life is a strong selling point when with the exact same hardware you can suddenly claim 40-50% longer life. #3, it never really worked anyways, just like DRM with games but now that they had 2 great reasons and ways to make money from no-DRM they did it. #4, online stores became a strong enough force in the market that music labels were not suing them any longer but investing in them.
 



Again, with the word "take" you imply that the pirates are depriving someone else of it. In fact, the second part of your statement is completely incorrect. "which was not given to you by someone who had purchased it". It IS given to you by someone who had purchased it, or was given to the person that gave it to you by someone who purchased it, etc.

Its not an "argument" that piracy is not stealing, it is a FACT. You are not TAKING copyrighted material, you are COPYING it, with no detrimental effect on the original.

You might think it is called stealing but that does not make it so. All the whining in the world will not change that legal fact.

I've unilaterally decided that your "slander" in saying it is stealing is the same as murder, so I want you sent to prison for life as a murderer.

That's a stupid argument isn't it? Just as stupid as yours in fact!
 
I do not pirate games. Limited DRM is annoying, but fair. However, I decided to buy Bioshock used (so as to jip 2K out of any profits) and encouraged everyone I know not to buy it. The level of DRM that Bioshock uses borders on illegal.

This is the major issue with me:

If the DRM does not uninstall when I uninstall the game, it is malware, and the company should be boycotted and probably even litigated. Not being able to take something off your PC when you install it is a privledge that should only be alloted to the OS itself. If an installed program does that, it's a virus in my opinion.

I had to replace my motherboard halfway through Bioshock. I was planning on reinstalling anyway after I completed the game (I knew I'd have to replace my MB pretty soon, but it ended up just crapping out.) Now I have a fresh install of windows that I am not willing to damage with malware like Bioshock uses.

So... despite the fact that I loved the game, I won't even get to finish it. That leaves me two options:

1) Learn to pirate it. (which under fair use laws is probably legal) or
2) Simply never finish it, sell it, and remember the pain 2K caused me next time I consider buying a game from them.

 
gigosaga et al, why would the industry making 'better' games somehow reduce piracy and prevent people from taking something for free when they really should be paying for it and compensating the developers?

Crysis... game of the year - still see thousands upon thousands of people torrenting it, all patting each other on the back with big 'thanks' etc... everybody knows this is a great game but massive illegal downloads all the same. Proves that people simply want it for free and nothing to do with feeling they have a right to pick and choose when to thank the developers. Really p's me off on the torrent sites the number of people giving 'thanks' to those ripping games... thank the developer for actually writing the thing by buying it, not some hacker for just putting it up there - pathetic.

I've heard people say that the p2p piracy thing is the beginning of some new economic model driven by user generated content. This may be the case to an extent with music, where you can create something quite good on your own in your bedroom, but why people think teams of dozens of some of the most gifted software developers are going to continue to write games when they don't get rewarded for it is beyond me.

It's human nature sadly... most people are by nature quite selfish and out for themselves rather than the greater good so to speak. So what if I download this for free - everybody else is doing it, why should I pay... and that's as far as the thought process goes. This idea that people will no longer click that mouse button a few times and grab a game for free because it is 'a really good one' is completely naive. People need to be prevented from doing it and that is why DRM is needed. A solution has to be found that makes it far harder to pirate a game than the current ease with which you can torrent them.

Everybody who knows how to pirate a game, knows that piracy is out of control, especially on the PC platform. I am all in favour of pretty much whatever it takes to stop it as long as my machine remains secure. It's potential profits that will encourage developers to invest more time and effort in making better games. If piracy where somehow impossible tomorrow, I am absolutely certain you'd see an order of magnitude increase in PC game sales.
 
I agree with Facelifter about the "returning it to the store" thing. If everybody that bought Bioshock had lined up at their local retailers demanding their money back, it would have done a lot more good than what we did do (express our complaints on their forums, etc.)

 
My quick take on this is the developers should just save their money they put towards anti piracy, because this day and age... EVERYTHING eventually gets cracked. So just save that money loss in anti piracy cost development.

I wish there wasn't pirated software, just like everyone else. I would love to go out and buy a game for 25.00 instead of 50-70.00. Or imagine Adobe being able to sell Photoshop etc... to the home user for about 99.00 or less. That would be great.

The more people steal, the more the price will go up, the more the price goes up, ends up in even more people stealing.

It's an endless circle.
 
Hmm, no, I doubt prices on professional software like Photoshop would drop much if it wasnt pirated as much. If anything the mass illegal copying of Photoshop has helped make it a standard in photo manipulation. Its not like poeple refer to photos being "airbrushed" anymore... photos are "photoshopped". Ah well, still illegal and whatnot but worth considering...
 


Flakes, you're getting carried away. Sharing a physical copy of a DVD or CD with a friend is not illegal under fair use (at least in the U.S.). Why? Because it's your property and you can loan the physical disc to who you want and when you want. What is illegal under current copyright law is taking that same disc, copying the software, and putting it on a public sever for your friend and millions of other people to "borrow" -- without ever giving the item back to you.
 
you know im sick of that,

how is lending a dvd to someone different than uploading it so someone can download it?

same process, you bought it then you uploaded it(lending it to your friend), your friend is the downloader...

7. Acts restricted by copyrightIt is an offence to perform any of the following acts without theconsent of the copyright owner:
i.Copy the work.
ii. Rent, lend or issue copies of the work to the public.
iii. Perform, broadcast or show the work in public.
iv. Adapt the work.The author of a work, or a director of a copyright film may alsohave certain moral rights:
v. The right to be identified as the author.
vi. Right to object to derogatory treatment.Copyright © 2000-2007 Copyright Witness Ltd.Web site: www.copyrightwitness.com

your friend would be a member of the public... youve broken copyright law every time you have ever let a friend lend a DVD to watch.. its EXACTLY the same as you uploading the material.

im now annoyed that people say pirates are the bad guys when your doing the same its just not electronic.

if i delete the file after watching its the same as your friend giving you it back...


now somebody else mentioned you pay for the license and not the dvd, so if you payed for the license to watch it, your friend/friends have not, what you are doing is breaking the law, in the same way a pirate is breaking the law. That puts us and just about everyone here on the same level.


just to add, I still stick by the statement i made earlier about downloading games to try before buying whether its breaking the law or not, you should be able to put money into developers that you think deserve that money.
 
Watching a DVD at home with a friend who isn't paying you for the screening would not be classed as "in public".

Screening it in a village hall with everyone paying $1 to enter would.

It's common sense. No one has ever been prosecuted for watching a DVD at home with their kids.


Uploading a DVD for strangers to download is NOT the same thing. Even if you want to take a very literal view, the key difference here is that when you watch a DVD with a friend, there is no copying of the copyrighted material - when you friend leaves, you still have the original (*). When someone downloads the movie from you, they now have a copy of the copyrighted material that they can keep and/or distribute. You have therefore allowed and facilitated an unauthorised copying of copyrighted material - and THERE is your offence.


(*) I could make a quip about photographic memories, but I won't :)
 
Again, that's only really there to prevent people running DVD rental businesses from home and claiming that they're only lending to friends.

As long as your lending is infrequent (i.e. not to the same people, every week) and not for profit, I can't see the copyright owner seeking to prosecute. Even if they did, any sensible court would throw the case out on a "Fair Usage" excuse.
 


Well if I use your reasoning, where stealing a car is the same as downloading a game, then lending DVDs etc is fine as thats like lending someone my car....

Or are you saying it should be illegal for me to lend anyone my car?!

You continue twisting words and picking and choosing flawed analogies to represent parts of your reasoning but not others. To be honest, I think you are just a troll. Your arguments and analogies are not even internally consistent.


EDIT: oops I'm getting you and Facelifter confused now, sorry :) I'll re-read and see if you drew the "stealing a car" analogy as well....
 
no youve misinterpreted(spelling?)

it is illegal for someone to drive your car unless there insured on your car.....Just like its illegal to lend someone a DVD unless they have bought the license to watch it already, which would mean they already have it.

and i never said anything about cars?!
 
I bought 3, yes 3 copies of BF2, 2 of those copies I gave to my brother and brother in law. As you can see I don't mind paying for the games I like to play, unlike other games that are crap and are not worth the money. Well, at least for me.
 
You do realize you're arguing the same things that were argued 25 years ago. At that time though, there were C-64 software rental stores all over. Disk copy programs to circumvent copy protection meant the end of computer gaming, I think that was declared about 1986.

I could send you fifty purchased games I've loaded (or tried to) and ran maybe once before uninstalling/deleting in disgust. At $40-50 each to purchase, it's hard to just throw things like that away, but their value's obviously nil, and software return policies have been the same for years, no returns. With programs that I do use, some have bad media and replacements aren't available, so it's either copy someone else's or go without.

I do occasionally download, or visit a "preview" store here (modern term for software rental), particularly with new games. I generally know in about 15 minutes if it's something I'll buy. I see no reason to blindly purchase things that end up being less polished than old shareware and being stuck with adding it to the firetrap all those boxes of garbage programs have become. Demo's also work, but they're not often released for free, which I think's just as stupid as spending a lot of development money on copy protection that'll be cracked in a month by some 13 year old.

I'm not justifying it, but I see no point in ranting about such a minor issue. The MPAA had plenty of people ranting about piracy there as well, last year was a record box office year even with their $500 bounty on cell phones and other reasons to avoid theaters. Do you really think that was due to some moralist rant?
 


Please post a summary if you think it's worthwhile for others to read. I usually put too many words in my posts as well but this is utterly rediculous. Why type all of that when most people will simply not read it because it's just too big?
 


darkstar782, you've already stated in previous posts that you agree that piracy is wrong. What is there to gain here in this particular discussion as to how wrong it is and what exactly is wrong?

If this is such a big deal, then my suggestion is to start a separate topic on this particular angle.

The person that passed on a pirated game, gave somebody something that he did not own. He only owned a license to play the game, not a license to copy it or even to pass on his particular license. That last particular bit is food for thought because a basic premise in a capitalist system is that whatever you buy, you can also sell again. In the case of PC games, if you buy a license to play a game, then this particular license should be resellable when you no longer need it. As far as I know (but I'm not a legal expert) most EULA's prohibit this, and as such one might be able to challenge the contract in court.

Interesting at this may be, this is not the issue we're debating in this thread. We are debating the act of piracy and how it is hurting industry and legit customers. These two discussions should not be mixed.
 


This is an easy one. If you upload it for anyone to download, that is making it available to the public, showing it to a friend (either in your home or in his) is not a public showing but a private one, and perfectly legal (fair use policy).




No it is not.

The simple difference here is the controlled aspect of the copy that you have and the license you bought to view it (as often as you like).

Making a copy of your own copy to give to your friend to do as he/she pleases, or your friend making a copy himself, that is illegal.


Realize that it is stories like you are putting here, are fuelling others to justify illegal activities that they do just because it seems "fair use" to them. Try to be concise as to what is fair use and what is not.
 
I have come to the following conclusions after debating this topic ad nauseum.

1. Piracy is actually harming the PC industry to a noticable degree. I don't believe it is as large a degree as publishers would have you believe, but it probably does have a notable effect on games being published for the PC. While piracy is not foreign to consoles as well, it is not as big an issue.

2. If DRM were not a problem then I would have no issue at all with rigorous efforts to exterminate piracy related web sites and content. However given the fact that I rely on those resources to bypass DRM on my legally purchased copies, which is often needed just to make the bloody thing work, I continue support their efforts.

3. If DRM quit being used I fully expect that sales would increase, not decrease. I think a lot of the reason why piracy related sites have grown so much in popularity is because people went looking for help when their legally purchased software didn't work and that is where the help came from.

4. I consider DRM the greater of the two evils and simply do not understand the position taken by people who actually support DRM efforts. You people act like frigging martyrs taking one for the team in order to stop the evil piracy, but you are in fact taking one for the team for no good reason whatsoever. I have yet to see any form of DRM short of Steam or MMOs that has lasted more than a couple of days after release, and frequently gets cracked a few days BEFORE release.
 



That's something entirely different, its like saying its illegal to lend someone a DVD unless they have a TV license..... but like I say I was confusing you and facelifter anyway :)


The thing is, when you try to impose over-restrictive conditions (You cant let your friend watch your DVD... if your friend comes over to your house while it is on do you have to turn it off in case he sees it? Do you have to be careful not to have the volume too loud in case your neighbours hear the copyrighted soundtrack?!), then as those conditions are immediately seen as "unfair", people ignore them. Once people start ignoring part of the EULA/License, its easier for them to ignore the rest (and flat out copy it).

Therefore, it is arguments like this - "don't lend friends your DVD as its against the law", that actually end up promoting piracy imho.

Everyone is talking as though if it wasn't for piracy the PC games market would be flourishing, but I really don't think this is true. Piracy doesn't allow you to play most games multiplayer, and other platforms that are doing fine - *cough*xbox360*cough* are even easier to pirate for, and then you get full functionality - including multiplayer!
 


Strange, I have a friend that has been using a modded 360 for months on live....
 
Or, he doesn't get the new updates until he gets a more recent hack...

Instead of saying DRM and piracy are fighting each other for the strong hold of the PC market, I'd say they were destroying it like a tag-team effort.
 
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