- Dec 26, 2012
- 30,750
- 4,552
- 142,790
My first modded pc was a Vic20 in 1980. Since then I've owned multiple pc's, and had my hands inside just about every mainstream version of pc under the sun. I remember Tom's when it was on BBS and just a fledgling questionnaire and tech talk bunch of ideas more than a forum.
One thing every single poster, Herald, Mod or Staffer has had in common over the years, they all have their own set of quirks.
I understand quite a bit about radiant heat and thermodynamic properties, also quite a bit about airflow too, as it relates, and honestly there's a lot less radiant heat from a psu as there is from a hdd, the Sata controller chipset, pci-e bridge or half a dozen other mosfets on the mobo itself.
1" of space is more than enough for the tiny amount of vacuum created by the gpu fans as it's really not a linear inch, but a spatial inch covering a circular ish area of about 9-10 inches per fan. There's more airspace around a 1" gap between psu and gpu than there is in many new case design intakes.
Like I said, everybody has their own quirks, over-thinking and over-estimating heat values and Tempest susceptibility seem to be yours, but that's OK, to each his own and I wish you luck in your endeavors.
One thing every single poster, Herald, Mod or Staffer has had in common over the years, they all have their own set of quirks.
I understand quite a bit about radiant heat and thermodynamic properties, also quite a bit about airflow too, as it relates, and honestly there's a lot less radiant heat from a psu as there is from a hdd, the Sata controller chipset, pci-e bridge or half a dozen other mosfets on the mobo itself.
1" of space is more than enough for the tiny amount of vacuum created by the gpu fans as it's really not a linear inch, but a spatial inch covering a circular ish area of about 9-10 inches per fan. There's more airspace around a 1" gap between psu and gpu than there is in many new case design intakes.
Like I said, everybody has their own quirks, over-thinking and over-estimating heat values and Tempest susceptibility seem to be yours, but that's OK, to each his own and I wish you luck in your endeavors.
- Apr 30, 2019
- 21
- 0
- 10
So if anyone drops by that knows of such a case as mentioned in the OP, please leave a link in this thread. I'll continue my search and check back from time to time. If I find anything I'll post a link here and consider my query closed.
Again thanks to all those that are actually here to help others at their own expense. You are the gentleman and scholars of the world.
Peace!
Again thanks to all those that are actually here to help others at their own expense. You are the gentleman and scholars of the world.
Peace!
- Dec 22, 2014
- 33,382
- 3,243
- 116,640
Hold up. What motherboard do you have? The closest slot to the CPU when used alone is ALWAYS x16. But if you have something different I'd be interested to be proved wrong. What is the brand and model?
- Mar 16, 2013
- 179,631
- 22,154
- 184,590
Top mount PSU
You're a bit mistaken in thinking the top mount is better for heat distribution.
In a properly vented case, there is only a degree or two air temp difference between at the very bottom and the very top of the case.
Yes, I've actually measured this, with a couple of USB powered temp gauges.
Fresh air is continually brought in from the front, and exhausted out the back/top. The PSU location contributes almost nothing to this.
And the PSU being probably the heaviest item in the case...being at the top makes the whole thing more tip prone.
TEMPEST
Why yes, I am quite conversant in what it is. 🛩
You can build a see through panel that is EM resistant. ex: F-16 canopy or microwave front door.
Or, you can get a 0.5mm sheet of Unobtanium, and glue it over the offending see through plastic panel.
If you're looking for something EM resistant, simply asking for 'no window' is not that. Many cases have no window, but a plastic side panel.
If you have a specific requirement (TEMPEST), state that.
You're a bit mistaken in thinking the top mount is better for heat distribution.
In a properly vented case, there is only a degree or two air temp difference between at the very bottom and the very top of the case.
Yes, I've actually measured this, with a couple of USB powered temp gauges.
Fresh air is continually brought in from the front, and exhausted out the back/top. The PSU location contributes almost nothing to this.
And the PSU being probably the heaviest item in the case...being at the top makes the whole thing more tip prone.
TEMPEST
Why yes, I am quite conversant in what it is. 🛩
You can build a see through panel that is EM resistant. ex: F-16 canopy or microwave front door.
Or, you can get a 0.5mm sheet of Unobtanium, and glue it over the offending see through plastic panel.
If you're looking for something EM resistant, simply asking for 'no window' is not that. Many cases have no window, but a plastic side panel.
If you have a specific requirement (TEMPEST), state that.
- Dec 26, 2012
- 30,750
- 4,552
- 142,790
There's some BTX boards from Dell where the blue top slot is x4, to get full x16 you gotta use the bottom black slot, even though they are both x16 physically. Also some oddballs like the Dell T7910, slots 2 and 4 are x16, slots 1 and 3 are x16 (x4 electrically)
- Dec 22, 2014
- 33,382
- 3,243
- 116,640
Somehow I doubt hes using an old Dell BTX board, or frankenstiening a Dell. Suffice to say when I made the statement I meant aftermarket boards. I have seen some that will stick an x1 slot at the top before the first true x16, but that first x16 slot is always the full 16 lanes to the CPU. A lower slot on the board just doesn't make sense.
- Dec 26, 2012
- 30,750
- 4,552
- 142,790
Took me by surprise too, trying to find an answer why a poster with a Dell mini tower was stuck with single slot vga, when there was a perfectly serviceable x16 slot above it with tons of space for even a triple size card. Turns out that top x16 slot was only x4 electrically, physically x16, so only the bottom slot was true x16. A gt710 prolly woulda worked top slot, but nothing of any size or speed. Personally think whomever designed that setup shoulda been shot. Twice.
- Apr 30, 2019
- 21
- 0
- 10
I don't know what you mean when you say, ..."tempest resistant."
A window in a computer case means it would never be tempest approved. Only electrically conductive metal can block electromagnetic radiation emanations, shunting them to ground. Glass/plexiglass are electrical insulators not conductors. The radomes of a Lockheed P-3C update II were made of Fiberglas & resin. Yes the electromagnetic energy passed right through it, or it wouldn't have been a very effective RADAR system. All a tempest program actually does is shunt electromagnetic energy to a dedicated earth ground. Your I/O shield is tempest inspired, ever notice how all the external ports on a MB have little spring loaded tangs that press against the I/O shield? How about around the edges of the side panels of a case, with their spring loaded tangs. Did you ever ask yourself why older cases with 5.25" or 3.5" bays have those steel knockouts in place, that you have to spin back and forth to cause metal fatigue so they pop out? That's right "Tempest Inspired!
That's why my very best case ever, as related to tempest security, is a Supermicro SC750-A, because it doesn't have those silly metal knockouts, that doesn't do anyone any good, that changes their bay configuration, because they can't easily be replaced. Instead it included metal plates that are replaceable, held by screws. Anyone that doesn't replace those twist out knockouts doesn't know anything about security! Ever notice how many cases have about 1/4" diameter holes where the fan goes, that is reminiscent of a Faraday cage? Yes a Faraday cage was inspired by tempest ideologies. (Or maybe it was the other way around, as I'm not sure of the dates of their inception.) A fan would vent warm air much more readily if it had a big square gaping hole, but it would be at the expence of tempest inspired security.
The best case of all would be one with heavy gauge steel (lead? though it's toxic) all the way around, with liquid cooling, with the radiator/s externally mounted and holes just large enough for cables to pass through, that were sheathed in steel mesh and foil just like 75ohm coaxial cable. All of which should be connected to a dedicated earth grounding rod made of copper clad steel that is 5/8" in diameter and 8' long, which has been hammered into a more solid earth substrate, (not sandy or loamy) where the very minimum is left unearthed so as to connect the 6 gauge solid copper grounding wire with a brass acorn nut with a little anti-corrosive compound. Of course a filter should be used on the 110v power line. Additionally all peripherals should also be encased in metal webbing that is connected to the same dedicated ground. But that hardly includes mobile computers, nor is it convenient in the eyes of most users of home/office based systems. I created a tempest inspired room. Computer case concerns are just my doubling down.
The facts are, one should consider the following unsecured: WiFi, cell phones, email, laptops, clouds, anything that transmits over the air or is kept outside your computer. Only grounded shielded wire can be considered somewhat secure, because if done properly it requires physical access to steal your identity. Of course there's always clever internet hackers getting through your firewall. Shouldn't the goal be to eliminate as many flanks of attack as possible? What free thinking individual really wants to be surrounded by probable risk?
Nothing personal to anyone, I've come to this conclusion years ago, no one here at Tom's has told me their computer has windows, so here it goes, I believe that those that have cases with fancy LED lights looking like a Christmas tree with windows are newbies/children/etc, that have no idea what serious computing is. Each to their own, I fully support anyone that want's to do anything to their computer, including smashing it with a crane's wrecking ball. Hey it's their money, time, energy and security, or lack there of, they can do what ever they want! I don't believe in slavery, or programming by corporations for monetary gain. I have and always shall believe in individuals, not parrots, nor clones of group think; (or would that actually be better considered as 'non-think.')
Creative individuals with advanced scientific thinking are those that have always inspired me, certainly not merchandisers of FAD's.
The real shame is that the current market, seemingly, purposely remove choice from knowledgeable computer enthusiasts.
Again, no malice towards any individual here. I point nothing derogatory at anyone particularly. I just make generalized statements that my knowledgeable experience informs. I fully appreciate anyone that cares to involve themselves in college level argument (debate). All trolls, I would ask to go fishing elsewhere, as your immaturity is easily gleaned and found to be severely wanting. In other words, the joke is always on you!
Health, happiness and wisdom to all the computing aficionados, out there.
Peace!
- Mar 16, 2013
- 179,631
- 22,154
- 184,590
The OP requested a case with no window. Nothing about TEMPEST.
Later, he remarked that just spray paint over a window does nothing for TEMPEST.
Apparently, meaning he wanted a TEMPEST resistant case.
I simply commented that lack of a window does not mean a case is TEMPEST resistant. There are many other factors involved.
Of course, I could have been completely wrong in his request and requirements. But, such as they were, that's what I went with.
- Apr 30, 2019
- 21
- 0
- 10
Awesome, I love it, but... it's currently out of stock, not only from Corsair but also at all the retailers they suggest. In addition, I couldn't find if an extended ATX board would fit.
But thanks for the searching man, I really do appreciate it. I just feel so guilty when people take their time to do me a favor. Especially when it's all in vain.
So again thanks! 🙂
- Apr 30, 2019
- 21
- 0
- 10
Yeah I thought it was an x16 slot too or I wouldn't have bought it. I had no idea that there were manufacturers out there, that installed a physical x16 slot, but only electrically made it x8 capable. Which I recently found is the case with my newer Supermicro X11 server board. I guess they prefer it, so as to securely hold the card physically in place, instead of installing an x8 slot, with the end of the female connector missing, so that an x16 card will fit, (extending out over the board.)
In the boards case for this thread, it has two physical X16 slots for crossfire, but if you want x16 with one card only, you have to place a small circuit redirecting board into the upper slot, and place your vid card in the lower slot. If you have two x16 cards for a crossfire configuration, then both cards are only x8, for a total between them, of x16.
Tricky manufacturers!!!
- Apr 30, 2019
- 21
- 0
- 10
Whatever, if you change you mind and want to be serious about the topic, I'll be here from time to time. Until then I suggest you go humor yourself elsewhere.
- Apr 30, 2019
- 21
- 0
- 10
I already answered this concept above for another user. Simply put, I took physics in college too, so I'm aware of your point, but every situation has ever variable values to place into the theorems/formulas yielding ever varying results. It's not about knowing the laws of physics, it's about doing the math in any particular case.
And of course there is over thinking and under thinking, but then whom is to decide which is which, and which are quirks? You? Me? How about You for You, and Me for Me, that sounds about right! What do you think?
If someone tries to squeeze out every fractional therm from within their computer case, they only stand to conserve. which means less money spent, less garbage, a greener world, and a longer lasting system, because heat is the enemy.
The measurements I found, in the two cases I have, shown via on die sensors, (the only ones that really matter), that the upper PSU model kept my processors cooler. But that's not conclusive, as they did not represent all cases of their types, as all cases of said type are not necessarily equal. So it may just come down to personal preference. I also have found that when wiring up both types of cases, it's easier to route cabling in the cases with an upper PSU.
Again, your mileage may vary, and I support you to measure that mileage in kilometers if you so choose. But this thread is not really about your or my measure. It's about whether or not anyone knows of such a case as that of which I'm looking.
As always, I really do appreciate anyone that sincerely attempts to help with my question. As those that make an honest attempt, are truly the gentleman and scholars of the net!
Peace, my friends!
Darkbreeze
Retired Mod
- Jun 24, 2014
- 82,676
- 8,319
- 176,790
And I suggest that you make EVERY effort to speak to other members, whether moderators or not, with common respect and civility. That, obviously, does not include telling people who are SERIOUSLY trying to help you, to shove off.
You have in this thread, probably one of the very few people you'll find on any forum anywhere, or at all, online or otherwise, that not only UNDERSTANDS what you are requesting, but likely has SPECIFIC experience in those types of systems and security protocols. "USAFRet" ought to be a clue to you on that.
Regardless though, even were he one of our clueless members of which we have many, it still would not be acceptable to respond that way to anybody and if that isn't understandable to you then you might be lacking in a component required to be a member here.
It's pretty simple. He's actually trying to help you, but not only are you not trying to help yourself, you're being rude. So just don't be rude. Especially when these are all people volunteering their own time to try and help the masses find solutions to their problems. If you don't like that, then you can go elsewhere while the rest of us continue on trying to help people. Very simple actually, just be civil, or if it isn't too much trouble, courteous even. I assure you, other than the one snarky comment about unobtainium, he has totally been trying to help you. Many people, you included, don't seem to always accept the idea that just because an idea or answer isn't what you were expecting or wanting, doesn't make it wrong or irrelevant.
Last edited:
- Dec 22, 2014
- 33,382
- 3,243
- 116,640
Physical x8 slots haven't been around in quite a long time. So X16 slots are almost always used (except in the case where the slot is x4) As you said, stability for GPUs and all.
Crossfire will usually run at x8/x8 in any system so you aren't losing anything in that case anyway (not that you're doing that, just pointing it out). What particular X11 board do you have? I'd like to look at how it works with that redirecting board, its interesting.
- Dec 26, 2012
- 30,750
- 4,552
- 142,790
In the US at least, every single electrical service is connected to a galvanized or copper ground rod, by 4 guage solid copper, little brass acorn etc (but no anti-ox as it's not necessary on copper). As long as you plug the pc into a grounding outlet, it's got an indirect - direct connection to that rod. Which only needs to be 24ohm or more to be considered compliant with Tempest/NEC codes and regulations.
As far as the earth goes, solid/sandy/loamy doesn't make a difference. It's all on the wetness of the ground. Solid clay that's bone dry and hard as a rock is plenty worse than wet, soft mud. I'd take soft, damp sand over rock anyday and twice on Sunday.
As far as the earth goes, solid/sandy/loamy doesn't make a difference. It's all on the wetness of the ground. Solid clay that's bone dry and hard as a rock is plenty worse than wet, soft mud. I'd take soft, damp sand over rock anyday and twice on Sunday.
Is this a home 'personal TEMPEST' program?
Every single case has hundreds of ventilation holes for intake/exhaust fans, etc...
This Corsair full-tower ATX has no windowed sidecover that I can see...
https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categ...Q-Inverse-ATX-Full-Tower-Case/p/CC-9011080-WW
If you are genuinely worried someone has penetrated your home to actually be able to monitor a PC tower's radiation emanations...there might be larger concerns.
Every single case has hundreds of ventilation holes for intake/exhaust fans, etc...
This Corsair full-tower ATX has no windowed sidecover that I can see...
https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categ...Q-Inverse-ATX-Full-Tower-Case/p/CC-9011080-WW
If you are genuinely worried someone has penetrated your home to actually be able to monitor a PC tower's radiation emanations...there might be larger concerns.
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
-
News Introducing the Tom’s Hardware Premium Beta: Exclusive content for members
- Started by Admin
- Replies: 43
-
-
-
-
Discussion What's your favourite video game you've been playing?- Started by amdfangirl
- Replies: 4K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram