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Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?

Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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Mike Rivers wrote:
> Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
> Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>
> Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>
> http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html
>
> --


It's an intresting concept that Thudpucker is putting out. I'd like to
see the investment vs. return numbers for Reuban Stutter, and Kelly
Clarkson before making a call on the future of recorded music.

I've already heard that the LOw-Fi aspects and popularity of MP3s are
killing the R&D budgets at recording equipment manufacters
 
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All intellectual property should be free, huh - try selling that to
the software industry. Registered marks, trademarks, copyrights, etc.
are all alive and well, it would seem, except for the music business.
People who insist that these things should be free are rationalizing
criminal behavior and encouraging theft. Plain and simple.

A different business model for the record industry is one thing, but
don't think all the blame lies with so-called 'greedy' label execs.
Artists and management pushing for ever escalating advances haven't
helped. Go back and study what has actually happened in the industry
in the '70's and '80's.

But, trying to suppress property rights is just plain communistic and
shouldn't be allowed to happen in this country. Free enterprise does
NOT mean that you can steal something that belongs to someone else
without paying for it.
 
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nmm wrote:
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>>Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
>>Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>>
>>Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>>
>>http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html
>>
>>--
>
>
>
> It's an intresting concept that Thudpucker is putting out. I'd like to
> see the investment vs. return numbers for Reuban Stutter, and Kelly
> Clarkson before making a call on the future of recorded music.
>
> I've already heard that the LOw-Fi aspects and popularity of MP3s are
> killing the R&D budgets at recording equipment manufacters
>

Many years ago I conceived an idea for a band that would not produce albums; the only way to hear
them would be at concerts and through bootleg recording people might make. I never got very far with
the concept because the bands I'd form wouldn't last and I am a recording engineer and love the process.

But at a more "local" level, many bands are doing just this. They didn't and don't have the money to
make recordings so the only way to hear them is to "experience" them live. You have to go see them.

The whole Thudpucker thing is really nothing new. We talked about the dynamic of how the record
labels were (and continue) ripping off artists. This conversation never ends. Sinead O'Connor was
quite vocal about the cost of production vs. the royalties paid to musicians being so completely out
of balance that she threatened to walk away. I haven't heard much from her after the whole Pope
thing years back, so I suppose in some way or another she may be sticking to her principles, maybe
even doing her stuff independently. Don't know.

Anyway, at the core of this argument is the fact that the bands that are stubborn enough and keep
going, if they have anything at all to offer, will generally succeed in having a career -- short or
long -- at a national/international level. The weeding out takes place automatically. That the
record labels have their own agenda, in my opinion, that in a way they are dictating what we are
going to like, what we will listen to, and for how long, is not so far fetched when you turn on the
radio and listen to what's being played. Do people who have an appreciation for music actually
listen to that stuff?? I wonder...

--fletch
 
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>Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record?
>I've always assumed that the real revenue came from CD sales and
touring
>was there as part of the record company's marketing campaign.

before records, musicians toured, edison came and the rest is being
digitized.
 
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Call me crazy, but I'm not even sure I totally believe in copyright
laws. I have conceptual problems with people "owning" ideas or
intangible things like chord progressions or voicings in a specific song
or arrangement. Music is so derivative anyway I feel noone can claim
the complete right of ownership to a recording or composition because so
much in any recording or composition is stolen from hundreds of other
recordings or compositions.

I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.

As far as audio engineers and technicians go, I think there will always
be a market, but maybe not like there was. But so what?

Maybe I'm too much of a socialist or something. I don't know. I'm
obviously opening myself up to criticism and haven't really 100% thought
through these ideas. Maybe I play too much classical music and
bluegrass to care about copyrights....

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq
(a musician, songwriter/composer, and audio technician)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
> Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>
> Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>
> http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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On 25 Feb 2005 12:17:14 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>
>Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
>Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>
>Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>
>http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

I'm down with Jimmy...

Al
 
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On 25 Feb 2005 11:29:38 -0800, "will" <wpmusic@sio.midco.net> wrote:

different business model for the record industry is one thing, but
>don't think all the blame lies with so-called 'greedy' label execs.

CDs cost about 60 cents to make, and they sell for $17. Are you
saying that the lion's share of that money is going to the artists?

Al
 
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:14:08 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
<declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:

>Call me crazy, but I'm not even sure I totally believe in copyright
>laws. I have conceptual problems with people "owning" ideas or
>intangible things like chord progressions or voicings in a specific song
>or arrangement. Music is so derivative anyway I feel noone can claim
>the complete right of ownership to a recording or composition because so
>much in any recording or composition is stolen from hundreds of other
>recordings or compositions.

Absolutely correct. Even the great classical composers ripped off
folk melodies with abandon.

Al
 

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In article <1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews>,
declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu says...
> Call me crazy, but I'm not even sure I totally believe in copyright
> laws. I have conceptual problems with people "owning" ideas or
> intangible things like chord progressions or voicings in a specific song
> or arrangement. Music is so derivative anyway I feel noone can claim
> the complete right of ownership to a recording or composition because so
> much in any recording or composition is stolen from hundreds of other
> recordings or compositions.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure I totally believe in patent laws.
I have conceptual problems with people "owning" ideas. Patents are
so derivitive anyway. Why should we pay to see a movie? Why should
we pay to rent a book? Directors can make their money off teaching,
performing(?), just like writers. Why isn't ciruit design free? It's
just artwork, right?

> I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
> performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
> jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
> think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
> costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.

Musicians make music. TEACHERS teach, ENGINEERS engineer, etc.
Just because technology has made it easy to steal a musician's work
(and now film-makers as well) doesn't make it RIGHT! You're not
entitled to the fruits of my work just because it's easy to steal.
It's easy to steal oranges out of an orchard too, but it ain't right.
The thieves of this world are going to make us pay for EVERYTHING
on the net eventually, by their actions. People whose hard work is
ripped off aren't going to stand for this forever, so eventually
this Good Thing will come crashing to an expensive end.
--
---Michael (of APP)...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/austinpowerplantmusic.htm
 
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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1109351826k@trad...
>
> Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
> Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>
> Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>
> http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

... that Trudeau is a communist? I already knew that.

Sean
 
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I know your post is intended to be "satirical" but I'm not sure I
believe in patents either. You are correct in saying patents are
derivative of many different sources than just the individual from whom
the idea came.

As far as books go, I can just go to the library and check them out for
free. It's great! Who "rents" books? I understand paying for a
service (like Netflix which sends you DVDs via the mail or going to a
movie where you sit down in an A/C'ed room to watch on the big screen),
but I can also go to the library and check out CDs, DVDs and VHS tapes
for free! And that is totally legal.

Also, a lot of people have software and circuit design for free. This
is the whole concept behind the open source movement.

And by the way, musicians teach. My family is entirely comprised of
musicians and artists, all of whom teach or have taught. Your argument
is akin to saying "those who can, do; those who can't, teach". Yet I
took guitar lessons for two years with a national champion flatpicker.
Obviously, he "could", but also taught. Some view teaching as an
integral part of fulfilling ones duty and role in society.

Tangible things can be stolen, but I'm not sure that you can "steal"
ideas or intangible things. It's like saying you're stealing the color
green. It doesn't make sense. And no, I don't think I'm entitled to
your work, but neither do I think you are solely entitled to it either.
I don't think anyone is entitled to ideas. Ideas are perhaps
un-entitleable (if that's a word).

Cheers,
Trevor de Clercq

Michael wrote:
> In article <1109355256.7b4ddb60f579bb554367d58cc4d74907@teranews>,
> declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu says...
>
>>Call me crazy, but I'm not even sure I totally believe in copyright
>>laws. I have conceptual problems with people "owning" ideas or
>>intangible things like chord progressions or voicings in a specific song
>>or arrangement. Music is so derivative anyway I feel noone can claim
>>the complete right of ownership to a recording or composition because so
>>much in any recording or composition is stolen from hundreds of other
>>recordings or compositions.
>
>
> Call me crazy, but I'm not sure I totally believe in patent laws.
> I have conceptual problems with people "owning" ideas. Patents are
> so derivitive anyway. Why should we pay to see a movie? Why should
> we pay to rent a book? Directors can make their money off teaching,
> performing(?), just like writers. Why isn't ciruit design free? It's
> just artwork, right?
>
>
>>I guess I feel musicians should make their money from teaching,
>>performing, working as technicians/engineers, or just working regular
>>jobs. So the "music industry" dying doesn't seem a big deal to me. I
>>think CDs should cost money to pay for the packaging and distribution
>>costs, but the royalties are a weird thing.
>
>
> Musicians make music. TEACHERS teach, ENGINEERS engineer, etc.
> Just because technology has made it easy to steal a musician's work
> (and now film-makers as well) doesn't make it RIGHT! You're not
> entitled to the fruits of my work just because it's easy to steal.
> It's easy to steal oranges out of an orchard too, but it ain't right.
> The thieves of this world are going to make us pay for EVERYTHING
> on the net eventually, by their actions. People whose hard work is
> ripped off aren't going to stand for this forever, so eventually
> this Good Thing will come crashing to an expensive end.
 
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:09:12 -0500, Trevor de Clercq
<declerct@REMOVETHISnewschool.edu> wrote:

>As far as books go, I can just go to the library and check them out for
>free. It's great! Who "rents" books?

Not only that, the book's author doesn't have to sign away everything
to get published.

Al
 
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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1109351826k@trad...
>
> Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
> Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>
> Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>
> http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html


I completely agree. In fact this is what was taught to me at audio school in
the more business related classes.

What people have to accept is that music/information is free now. It is! If
you think otherwise you are in complete denial. A business model has to be
created around musicians making a living from touring, not selling music.
Profit will come from ticket sales & T-Shirts/Merch.

--
-hev
remove "your opinion" to find me:
www.michaelYOURspringerOPINION.com
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=14089013
 

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Just caught those strips this morning; I'm really not sure what to
think.

The musician (in the sense that when I am playing I wish to be an
instrument of music) in me believes that what Thudpucker proposes would
give rise to a lot more *good* music.

However, doesn't his model leave not only the dinosaur
recording/publishing industry but also the pro audio industry (that's
US) out in the cold, starving to death?

I imagine that I could fairly easily find a gig playing again, but I
began concentrating more on engineering than musicking fifteen years
ago precisely because the life of a wandering minstrel had lost its
luster. Furthermore, are populations really going to be kinder to
traveling musicians than the last couple of generations of clubowners?

Hev suggests that music and information are the same thing; I'm not at
all sure I agree. I'll give you the point that music is free now but I
continue to question whether that's the way it *should* be.

Your mileage will, of course, vary--I'm not trying to start a war here,
just thinking out loud and bemoaning what appears to be my own
unemployability . . .

--Gordon Rice
 
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On 25 Feb 2005 10:32:21 -0800, gordon@sigmasound.com wrote:

>I imagine that I could fairly easily find a gig playing again, but I
>began concentrating more on engineering than musicking fifteen years
>ago precisely because the life of a wandering minstrel had lost its
>luster. Furthermore, are populations really going to be kinder to
>traveling musicians than the last couple of generations of clubowners?

I doubt it, at least on the lower local levels, things are getting
worse. For example the number of rooms that showcased jazz in the US
has shrunk from 150 to about 45, this according to a sax player I
know.

In my personal experience the demand for live music at smaller events
is evaporating. And I hear from other players that this is not a
local problem, it's national. Young people now prefer DJs with dance
mixes over live music. There is no tradition of live music with these
people and they no longer hire bands for weddings or other functions,
they just hire a guy with a pile of CDs and a sound system.

Al
 
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play_on <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 25 Feb 2005 11:29:38 -0800, "will" <wpmvsic@sio.midco.net> wrote:
>
> different bvsiness model for the record indvstry is one thing, bvt
>>don't think all the blame lies with so-called 'greedy' label execs.
>
>CDs cost abovt 60 cents to make, and they sell for $17. Are yov
>saying that the lion's share of that money is going to the artists?

Well, last albvm I worked on was recorded in abovt eighty hovrs, with
thirty-fovr mvsicians in the band making vnion scale, three soloists
probably making better than vnion scale, a condvctor and a prodvcer.
Handel is dead so he didn't get paid, bvt the arrangers got paid some
mechanicals. I probably billed a good $12k, abovt half of which goes
for maintenance. The hall rental probably cost at least that.

And I'll be svrprised if more than 10,000 discs are sold.

I hate to say it bvt that comes to a lot more than sixty cents a disk.
I'd be svrprised if the label breaks even at $17. That's withovt even
thinking of the promotion cost (which in this case is probably limited
to a thovsand free disks and an ad in Gramophone).
--scott
--
"C'est vn Nagra. C'est svisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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On 25 Feb 2005 18:05:07 -0500, klvdge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>play_on <playonAT@comcast.net> wrote:
>>On 25 Feb 2005 11:29:38 -0800, "will" <wpmvsic@sio.midco.net> wrote:
>>
>> different bvsiness model for the record indvstry is one thing, bvt
>>>don't think all the blame lies with so-called 'greedy' label execs.
>>
>>CDs cost abovt 60 cents to make, and they sell for $17. Are yov
>>saying that the lion's share of that money is going to the artists?
>
>Well, last albvm I worked on was recorded in abovt eighty hovrs, with
>thirty-fovr mvsicians in the band making vnion scale, three soloists
>probably making better than vnion scale, a condvctor and a prodvcer.
>Handel is dead so he didn't get paid, bvt the arrangers got paid some
>mechanicals. I probably billed a good $12k, abovt half of which goes
>for maintenance. The hall rental probably cost at least that.
>
>And I'll be svrprised if more than 10,000 discs are sold.
>
>I hate to say it bvt that comes to a lot more than sixty cents a disk.
>I'd be svrprised if the label breaks even at $17. That's withovt even
>thinking of the promotion cost (which in this case is probably limited
>to a thovsand free disks and an ad in Gramophone).
>--scott

Scott, will all dve respect, this is example is very far from a
typical modern recording.

Al
 
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In article <1109356341.368405.186720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> gordon@sigmasound.com writes:

> The musician (in the sense that when I am playing I wish to be an
> instrument of music) in me believes that what Thudpucker proposes would
> give rise to a lot more *good* music.
>
> However, doesn't his model leave not only the dinosaur
> recording/publishing industry but also the pro audio industry (that's
> US) out in the cold, starving to death?

I think that there will always be a demand for recordings of music,
but that the demand will be created from hearing a live performance
rather than hype in magazines, MTV heavy rotation and multi-semi
tours. The coffee house singer who hawks his own CDs from the stage is
a good example. Sales are usually pretty brisk at these gigs, and at a
reasonable $12-15 makes a nice supplement to the modest take from the
door or however they're paid.

> I imagine that I could fairly easily find a gig playing again, but I
> began concentrating more on engineering than musicking fifteen years
> ago precisely because the life of a wandering minstrel had lost its
> luster.

Well, if musicians were busy gigging, they wouldn't have time to learn
how to be their own recording engineers and you could start recording
them for fair money.

> Furthermore, are populations really going to be kinder to
> traveling musicians than the last couple of generations of clubowners?

That's not really a fair question, but I'll bet they'll be kinder to
traveling musicians than to major record labels and big concert
promoters.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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Mike Rivers wrote:
>Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
>Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>
>Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>
>http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

I am very ignorant when it comes to the music business. I head a local
band that's met with (what I consider) moderate success. We play gigs,
we sell (moderately priced) CDs and a little merchandise. I know
*nothing* about the "real" music business. With that being said:

Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record?
I've always assumed that the real revenue came from CD sales and touring
was there as part of the record company's marketing campaign.

Aren't the rising ticket costs, merchandising, etc., methods to
meliorate the cost of (and perhaps from) this particular aspect of
marketing?

Stu
 
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"Stu Venable" <srvenable@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ZkKTd.5431$MY6.3@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record?
> I've always assumed that the real revenue came from CD sales and touring
> was there as part of the record company's marketing campaign.

I expect we could see an era where CDs support the tour. The big returns
will always belong to the people with the money to buy marketing. We can
look forward to a golden age of huge carnival music festivals going every
week, all year, so the "superstars" can haul in enough cash to pay for more
layers of bling.

The smaller groups and singer/songwriters will feed off the overflow,
setting up secondary acts and putting out the hat. Swag tables as far as
the eye can see, like supermarkets of emblematic apparel, program books and
souvenire doodads.

I'm going to get a Green Day toaster.

dtk
 
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"Stu Venable" <srvenable@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ZkKTd.5431$MY6.3@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record? I've
> always assumed that the real revenue came from CD sales and touring was
> there as part of the record company's marketing campaign.

Touring is how the band makes money, because they see so little from the
records after the record company subtracts the production costs. Of course
I'm talking about the bands that actually subsidize their own tours.

Sean
 
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:43:05 GMT, Stu Venable
<srvenable@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Mike Rivers wrote:
>>Doesn't anyone have anything to say about the last couple of days'
>>Doonesbury strips? Or is there nothing more to say?
>>
>>Jimmy Thudpucker speaks the truth.
>>
>>http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html
>
>I am very ignorant when it comes to the music business. I head a local
>band that's met with (what I consider) moderate success. We play gigs,
>we sell (moderately priced) CDs and a little merchandise. I know
>*nothing* about the "real" music business. With that being said:
>
>Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record?

Not all. For many bands touring is making money. For example, ZZ Top
in the early part of their career were a top concert draw, more than
their record sales would suggest. They didn't have a top 40 hit until
much later. The Grateful Dead of course is another example of this.

>I've always assumed that the real revenue came from CD sales and touring
>was there as part of the record company's marketing campaign.

Most bands don't make much money on sales of recordings unless they
are superstars. Smaller acts are usually signed to deals that are
more advantageous to the record companies than to the act.

Al
 
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In article <ZkKTd.5431$MY6.3@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> sturvNOSPAM@earthlink.net writes:

> I am very ignorant when it comes to the music business. I head a local
> band that's met with (what I consider) moderate success. We play gigs,
> we sell (moderately priced) CDs and a little merchandise. I know
> *nothing* about the "real" music business. With that being said:
>
> Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record?

That's the way it is in today's model. It used to be that the record
promoted the artist.

> Aren't the rising ticket costs, merchandising, etc., methods to
> meliorate the cost of (and perhaps from) this particular aspect of
> marketing?

I'm amazed at how affluent certain audiences are. The Birchmere (which
used to be a grubby restaurant that on Tuesday nights hosted The
Seldom Scene, arguably the top rated bluegrass band in the US for
no cover charge) recently held a four-songwriters show headlined by
Guy Clark. The ticket price for this show was $100, and they sold out
three nights, for a $180,000 take. In addition, there's a bar area
outside the music room, while they didn't charge a cover for that
room, they passed the hat and collected another $29,000. And it was
just four people on stage with their guitars. OK, the restaurant has
relocated twice, now seats 600 and has an excellent sound system (but
still has lousy food that you just about gotta come for if you want to
get a decent table) so it's classier than it used to be, but that's
mighty big bucks. I didn't go because I can't conceive of paying that
much money for a concert, but 1800 people did. I think there's some
potential here.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
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play_on wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:43:05 GMT, Stu Venable
> <srvenable@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Wasn't (or isn't) the whole purpose of touring to promote the record?
>
>
> Not all. For many bands touring is making money. For example, ZZ Top
> in the early part of their career were a top concert draw, more than
> their record sales would suggest. They didn't have a top 40 hit until
> much later. The Grateful Dead of course is another example of this.


Which is why the ClearChannel practice of locking down the radio promotion of concerts was such a scary development.
 
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