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We tested the Nvidia App performance problems — games can run up to 15 percent slower with the app
HardWareBoss
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HardWareBoss
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HardWareBoss
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Slava
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================
Time to start thinking about dual (but not redundant) power supplies.
Think about it. The 460 watt Enermax has 35 amp, 35 amp, and 33 amp .........
================
:redface: I must admit: I am not an electrician and while I know a few things about hardware I have no idea how to tell if my computer has enough power or not.
P-4 2.4 GHz @ 2.98 GHz
512 Mb RDRAM
eVGA GF FX5700Ultra @ 550MHz clock/1.03 GHz RAM
Dual 120 Gb Barracudas 7000.2
48x CD-ROM
24x Yamaha 3-in-1 CD-RW
SB-Live XGamer
3Com 10/100 NIC
5 case fans
350W A-Open stock PSU (came with my full-tower server case – not sure exactly who the PSU manufacturer is cuz I never looked)
WinXP Pro SP-1
I think I only have one or two unused PSU power connectors left in the box. All others are powering something like a fan or the video card.
I’ve experimented with this system quite a bit. Runs stable and fast enough for me. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic at 1280x960 2xFSAA/4xAF and the rest of the Graphics options ON gives between 28 and 50+ fps (average of around 40 fps). No problems. Reboot from Desktop back to useable Desktop takes about 35 seconds. But I’ve seen posts here which suggest that more power may actually improve overall system performance. So is there a straightforward way to check if the components get as much juice as they need to run at their fullest?
Thanks.
Time to start thinking about dual (but not redundant) power supplies.
Think about it. The 460 watt Enermax has 35 amp, 35 amp, and 33 amp .........
================
:redface: I must admit: I am not an electrician and while I know a few things about hardware I have no idea how to tell if my computer has enough power or not.
P-4 2.4 GHz @ 2.98 GHz
512 Mb RDRAM
eVGA GF FX5700Ultra @ 550MHz clock/1.03 GHz RAM
Dual 120 Gb Barracudas 7000.2
48x CD-ROM
24x Yamaha 3-in-1 CD-RW
SB-Live XGamer
3Com 10/100 NIC
5 case fans
350W A-Open stock PSU (came with my full-tower server case – not sure exactly who the PSU manufacturer is cuz I never looked)
WinXP Pro SP-1
I think I only have one or two unused PSU power connectors left in the box. All others are powering something like a fan or the video card.
I’ve experimented with this system quite a bit. Runs stable and fast enough for me. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic at 1280x960 2xFSAA/4xAF and the rest of the Graphics options ON gives between 28 and 50+ fps (average of around 40 fps). No problems. Reboot from Desktop back to useable Desktop takes about 35 seconds. But I’ve seen posts here which suggest that more power may actually improve overall system performance. So is there a straightforward way to check if the components get as much juice as they need to run at their fullest?
Thanks.
MrPanther0
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Slava how does that 5700 perform?
you have 3dmark2001,03 or aquamark scores?
thats a pretty good OC on that card my friend
you have 3dmark2001,03 or aquamark scores?
thats a pretty good OC on that card my friend
Slava
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I like this O/Ced FX 5700 Ultra (it is a GDDR2 version). It is O/Ced (using NVHardPage to unlock hidden nVidia driver settings) so much and stable cuz I think I chose the right card for the job: eVGA cooling solution is very powerful and I find it quiet enough. Aquamark3 score is over 36000 (with CPU at stock speed and about 37000 with CPU + AGP/PCI bus overclocked (BTW I am running AGP 4x since my ASUS P4T-E mobo was made before AGP 8x 😱). So far I have not had any problems or artifacts or crashes or anything. Been stress-testing the system for 7 days now.
See, the system is mix-and-match and before I get myself a hot mobo + nV 6800 Ultra 😀 I want to screw as much as I can with this one. I wonder if I can push Aquamark over 40000..... Oh, and before I started tweaking, my Aquamark3 socre (everything at stock speeds) was something like 27500.
Also, I must mention that I was shocked when Sandra 2004 repeatedly said that my 2-years old PC-800 RDRAM performs about 10-15% better than PC-3200 in comparable DDR-based systems.
Yes, I want a nice, well-balanced system where all components are modern, but my current one still kicks serious butt. After all, how much fps does one need when motion pictures are shot at 30 fps? So if I manage to get close to 40000 stable in Aquamark it will be a while before I build a new rig.
See, the system is mix-and-match and before I get myself a hot mobo + nV 6800 Ultra 😀 I want to screw as much as I can with this one. I wonder if I can push Aquamark over 40000..... Oh, and before I started tweaking, my Aquamark3 socre (everything at stock speeds) was something like 27500.
Also, I must mention that I was shocked when Sandra 2004 repeatedly said that my 2-years old PC-800 RDRAM performs about 10-15% better than PC-3200 in comparable DDR-based systems.
Yes, I want a nice, well-balanced system where all components are modern, but my current one still kicks serious butt. After all, how much fps does one need when motion pictures are shot at 30 fps? So if I manage to get close to 40000 stable in Aquamark it will be a while before I build a new rig.
I've never seen any claims that more power improves performance and I don't believe it.
If your system is stable then you probably don't need a more powerful PSU unless you are planning upgrades or overclocking.
Howerver consider this example.
Take a typical generic 350 watt power supply (not necessily yours but a cheapo no-brand model). It might be rated for say 15 amps on the +12 volt rail. You don't know if that is a peak max or continuous max but peak is common. Count on only 70% of that for continuous load. (70% is just a rule of thumb, a conservative safe number). That would make the safe upper limit 10.5 amps (15 * 0.70 = 10.5). Now you take one of the P4 motherboards which derive CPU power from the the 12V rail. I don't recall the power load of a high-end P4 but let's say it's 70 watts. That means 5.8 amps (70 watts / 12 volts = 5.8 amps). Now take a high-end video card. I've heard some of the newer ones draw 60 watts. However, not all of the power is from the 12V rail. Let's call it 60%. That's another 3 amps (60 watts / 12 volts * 60% = 3 amps).
(A lot of these numbers are arbitrary but just bear with me for a moment).
Fans, Let's say you have 2 case fans and 1 power supply fan at approx 0.25 amp each plus one CPU fan. A quiet, lower volume fan might be the same 0.25 amp but let's call it 0.5 amp. (It could be a lot more).
What's the total so far? 5.8 amp for the CPU + 3 amp for the video card + 1.25 amp for CPU fan and case fans. That's about 10 amps so far, just about at that 70% safe limit.
Now factor in disk drives (your guess is as good as mine) and whatever else uses 12V power.
Anyway, it won't be long before you hit the max (whether it be peak or continuous) of that generic power supply.
Want to overclock? A 10% overclock requires at least 10% more power for the CPU or GPU. A 10% voltage increase, another 10%. The increases are compounded. Running hotter means more resistance yet more power. Need more and better fans for cooling? Again more power.
It all adds up fast.
A generic 350-watt power supply might be enough or it might not.
<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
If your system is stable then you probably don't need a more powerful PSU unless you are planning upgrades or overclocking.
Howerver consider this example.
Take a typical generic 350 watt power supply (not necessily yours but a cheapo no-brand model). It might be rated for say 15 amps on the +12 volt rail. You don't know if that is a peak max or continuous max but peak is common. Count on only 70% of that for continuous load. (70% is just a rule of thumb, a conservative safe number). That would make the safe upper limit 10.5 amps (15 * 0.70 = 10.5). Now you take one of the P4 motherboards which derive CPU power from the the 12V rail. I don't recall the power load of a high-end P4 but let's say it's 70 watts. That means 5.8 amps (70 watts / 12 volts = 5.8 amps). Now take a high-end video card. I've heard some of the newer ones draw 60 watts. However, not all of the power is from the 12V rail. Let's call it 60%. That's another 3 amps (60 watts / 12 volts * 60% = 3 amps).
(A lot of these numbers are arbitrary but just bear with me for a moment).
Fans, Let's say you have 2 case fans and 1 power supply fan at approx 0.25 amp each plus one CPU fan. A quiet, lower volume fan might be the same 0.25 amp but let's call it 0.5 amp. (It could be a lot more).
What's the total so far? 5.8 amp for the CPU + 3 amp for the video card + 1.25 amp for CPU fan and case fans. That's about 10 amps so far, just about at that 70% safe limit.
Now factor in disk drives (your guess is as good as mine) and whatever else uses 12V power.
Anyway, it won't be long before you hit the max (whether it be peak or continuous) of that generic power supply.
Want to overclock? A 10% overclock requires at least 10% more power for the CPU or GPU. A 10% voltage increase, another 10%. The increases are compounded. Running hotter means more resistance yet more power. Need more and better fans for cooling? Again more power.
It all adds up fast.
A generic 350-watt power supply might be enough or it might not.
<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
Slava
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THANKS! It is much clearer now. Basically, the way to see how much power one needs is to keep that 70% rule of thumb in mind, get power ratings for your components and do some math. Kudos to you man. You should post this on the PSU board under the FAQ sticky.
Much thanks.
Much thanks.
<b>Quote from FiringSquad :</b>
Another factor that may play against GeForce 6800 Ultra is its extraordinary power requirements. With its two Molex power connector requirement, and NVIDIA’s recommendation of a 480-watt power supply, many enthusiasts will have to upgrade their power supply unit in order to run GeForce 6800 Ultra. This could make a whole lot of money for PSU manufacturers like Antec and Enermax, or it could lead enthusiasts to settle for GeForce 6800. We’ll just have to wait and see how that part plays out.
I hope ATI X800 will be better in this aspect. Reviews will have to add +100$US to all GeForce 6800 price, because no one have a 500 Watts power supply. I can't believe this! I mean, this is a great GPU, but so much heat and power! I'm quite disturbed with these requirements.
--
Would you buy a potato powered chipset?
Another factor that may play against GeForce 6800 Ultra is its extraordinary power requirements. With its two Molex power connector requirement, and NVIDIA’s recommendation of a 480-watt power supply, many enthusiasts will have to upgrade their power supply unit in order to run GeForce 6800 Ultra. This could make a whole lot of money for PSU manufacturers like Antec and Enermax, or it could lead enthusiasts to settle for GeForce 6800. We’ll just have to wait and see how that part plays out.
I hope ATI X800 will be better in this aspect. Reviews will have to add +100$US to all GeForce 6800 price, because no one have a 500 Watts power supply. I can't believe this! I mean, this is a great GPU, but so much heat and power! I'm quite disturbed with these requirements.
--
Would you buy a potato powered chipset?
coolsquirtle
Distinguished
- Jan 4, 2003
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the PCI-EX version will fix this problem...
RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy+119% Money Fanboy
GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy 😀
RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy+119% Money Fanboy
GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy 😀
I just read the Hardware.fr review of the GeForce 6800 and they claim that <A HREF="http://www.hardware.fr/articles/491/page11.html" target="_new">a 480 Watts PSU requirement is way beyond real power needed by this card</A>. They measured that the 6800 use not much more power than the GeForce FX 5950.
Their recommendation 350 Watts minimum PSU in non "overloaded" system. This mean not 3-4 HDD bunch of add-in cards, etc... And 400 Watts PSU (and more) for heavily load PC. They even ask "Why did nVidia use 2 power connector?" One would be enough!
--
Would you buy a potato powered chipset?
Their recommendation 350 Watts minimum PSU in non "overloaded" system. This mean not 3-4 HDD bunch of add-in cards, etc... And 400 Watts PSU (and more) for heavily load PC. They even ask "Why did nVidia use 2 power connector?" One would be enough!
--
Would you buy a potato powered chipset?
Probably for the "potential" that it has. Electronic Engineers aren't retarded...if they say it could possibly use that much draw of power...they're probably right. They wouldn't have put two connectors on it when one would have done the job because cost wise it isn't feasible. No manufacturer would make that boneheaded of a mistake unless they honestly needed it in order to appease the masses when the draw of power actually does go through the roof. I'd say its because the card has the potential to use that much power.
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<b>It is always brave to say what everyone thinks. </b> <i>Georges Duhamel</i>
TKS
----------
<b>It is always brave to say what everyone thinks. </b> <i>Georges Duhamel</i>
TKS
Oh well, I got a 550watt enermax alrdy, so I should be set. Reading tom's review on 6800U right now.
-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
addiarmadar
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- May 26, 2003
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Just upgraded from 420 to 550 but here is the bigger pooch-screw. These new AGP cards are going to require a new mobo type and who knows if it will use the same ATX power plugin. We all may get screwed in getting a differnt PSU.
Mobile Barton 2500+ @ 2420mhz 11x220 1.7v
Asus A7N8X Dlx 440 FSB
1gb Geil GD pc3500 Dual Channel (2-3-3-6)
Segata 80gb SATA 8.5ms seek
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro(420/730)
Mobile Barton 2500+ @ 2420mhz 11x220 1.7v
Asus A7N8X Dlx 440 FSB
1gb Geil GD pc3500 Dual Channel (2-3-3-6)
Segata 80gb SATA 8.5ms seek
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro(420/730)
LOL, i don't really care, i can return it to distributor when i feel like it.
-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
I can't take credit for the 70% rule because I read it somewhere, myself. However, I can add an opinion or two
It's OK to economize if you aren't doing anything unusual.
Most people can get by with a name brand 350 watt power supply, (well at least before FX6800. We'll see).
What's unusual?
- Overclocking
- Arrays of hard drives
- lots of fans
- high temperature situations. Remember PSU ratings are at 25 degrees C. If your case is running hotter than this then your max power is reduced.
- specific hardware situations
For example a P4 system derives power from the 12V rail. You need a PSU with a good +12V rating.
Athlon motherboards (32-bit Athlons) usually derive CPU power from the +5V rail. +12V power is less critical, or rather is utilized to a lesser degree. (It's still critical). You might choose a different PSU for an Athlon system than you would for a P4.
None of this means it's essential to upgrade the power supply. It just helps if you have an idea how your own components use power.
Pay more attention to the things that use a lot of power, like CPU, GPU, large numbers of PCI cards, large numbers of disk drives, overclocking.
LOL!
If only I would take my own advice. I've been pushing my PSU too far for a long time. I've had stability problems because of it.
<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
It's OK to economize if you aren't doing anything unusual.
Most people can get by with a name brand 350 watt power supply, (well at least before FX6800. We'll see).
What's unusual?
- Overclocking
- Arrays of hard drives
- lots of fans
- high temperature situations. Remember PSU ratings are at 25 degrees C. If your case is running hotter than this then your max power is reduced.
- specific hardware situations
For example a P4 system derives power from the 12V rail. You need a PSU with a good +12V rating.
Athlon motherboards (32-bit Athlons) usually derive CPU power from the +5V rail. +12V power is less critical, or rather is utilized to a lesser degree. (It's still critical). You might choose a different PSU for an Athlon system than you would for a P4.
None of this means it's essential to upgrade the power supply. It just helps if you have an idea how your own components use power.
Pay more attention to the things that use a lot of power, like CPU, GPU, large numbers of PCI cards, large numbers of disk drives, overclocking.
LOL!
If only I would take my own advice. I've been pushing my PSU too far for a long time. I've had stability problems because of it.
<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
</i>
Slava
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Yeah 😱) I am sure you did not come up with all that on your own. Nevertheless, this info is nowhere to be found on the THG PSU board, so I just thought that it would be helpful if you posted an explanation similar to the one you gave me in PSU sticky... especially now that many ppl will be at a loss re 6800 power requirements.
<font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-good one every year?</font color=green> 😎
<font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-good one every year?</font color=green> 😎
I just saw a preview of the FX6800 (well, 7:10 PM EST) on TechTV's The Screen Savers.
Not as bad as you had us fearing. 12 amps, two non-shared molex connectors. That's all. What's that 100 watts? Your 550 watt Enermax should handle it easily.
The $500 (USD) bothers me more than the power requirements.
I'm ready for a price slide for lesser products.
Do you think the Radeon 9800 (non-pro) will drop to $100 USD by summer time? <b>[dreams wistfully]</b>
<b>Update</b>
Sh-e-e-e-t, what was I thinking? That's 144 watts.
Hey that's a lot of heat!
<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 04/14/04 07:47 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Not as bad as you had us fearing. 12 amps, two non-shared molex connectors. That's all. What's that 100 watts? Your 550 watt Enermax should handle it easily.
The $500 (USD) bothers me more than the power requirements.
I'm ready for a price slide for lesser products.
Do you think the Radeon 9800 (non-pro) will drop to $100 USD by summer time? <b>[dreams wistfully]</b>
<b>Update</b>
Sh-e-e-e-t, what was I thinking? That's 144 watts.
Hey that's a lot of heat!
<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 04/14/04 07:47 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
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