EOS 10D and 1D Mark II

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Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

Hi All,

I have been thinking about spending some money on a decent Canon digital
SLR, and I have really fallen for the 1D Mark II. The pricetag is just a
little hard for me to swallow, especially since I am only an amateur; thus I
would be shooting for fun, rather than for profit.

I have handled the 10D and am quite happy with it, although I do wish that
it had a faster drive mode. I enjoy nature photography, and if I had a
faster drive mode, I can think of countless pictures that might have been
better (the latest one being a hummingbird that was zipping along). And
just about every shot I have taken would have benefited from the additional
resolution provided by the 1D Mark II as well.

So what I am wondering is, does anyone feel like the extra cost of the 1D
Mark II is really justifiable for an amateur like myself? The more I think
about it, the more it seems like I should perhaps just start off with the
10D, rather than jump straight to a 4.5k digital SLR. This will be the
first digital SLR I have actually owned; my current digital camera is a
"mere mortal" point-and-shoot model (Pentax Optio 550). But on the other
hand, I do not want to find myself feeling like I need to upgrade in a year,
and have sunk $1200 in a camera that will now serve only as a backup, or
perhaps to lend to trusted friends.

Any thoughts?

Sincerely,
-Josh
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Joshua Beall" <jbeall@donotspam.remove.me.heraldic.us> wrote in message news:<nhJGc.18714$Xq4.11579@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>...
> Hi All,
>
> I have been thinking about spending some money on a decent Canon digital
> SLR, and I have really fallen for the 1D Mark II. The pricetag is just a
> little hard for me to swallow, especially since I am only an amateur; thus I
> would be shooting for fun, rather than for profit.
>
> I have handled the 10D and am quite happy with it, although I do wish that
> it had a faster drive mode. I enjoy nature photography, and if I had a
> faster drive mode, I can think of countless pictures that might have been
> better (the latest one being a hummingbird that was zipping along). And
> just about every shot I have taken would have benefited from the additional
> resolution provided by the 1D Mark II as well.
>
> So what I am wondering is, does anyone feel like the extra cost of the 1D
> Mark II is really justifiable for an amateur like myself? The more I think
> about it, the more it seems like I should perhaps just start off with the
> 10D, rather than jump straight to a 4.5k digital SLR. This will be the
> first digital SLR I have actually owned; my current digital camera is a
> "mere mortal" point-and-shoot model (Pentax Optio 550). But on the other
> hand, I do not want to find myself feeling like I need to upgrade in a year,
> and have sunk $1200 in a camera that will now serve only as a backup, or
> perhaps to lend to trusted friends.
>
> Any thoughts?

The 10D's AF system is very poor, it shoots away in AF servo mode but
you'll have a virtual 100% throw away rate due to AF missing. Really
bad.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

In article <1067e702.0407091840.4edbe6c9@posting.google.com>, Georgette
Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The 10D's AF system is very poor, it shoots away in AF servo mode but
> you'll have a virtual 100% throw away rate due to AF missing. Really
> bad.

Take your lies and sell 'em to Michael Moore...
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message news:<090720042113575515%rag@nospam.techline.com>...
> In article <1067e702.0407091840.4edbe6c9@posting.google.com>, Georgette
> Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The 10D's AF system is very poor, it shoots away in AF servo mode but
> > you'll have a virtual 100% throw away rate due to AF missing. Really
> > bad.
>
> Take your lies and sell 'em to Michael Moore...

The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
in servo moe.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

In article <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>, Georgette
Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> in servo moe.

It's your thought processes that are extremely poor. My 10D focuses
right on 100% of the time, but then I'm a highly trained (former)
professional.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

I think Preddy is confusing the lack on in camera sharpening for a lack of
AF ability.
Richard
"Randall Ainsworth" <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message
news:100720040845563039%rag@nospam.techline.com...
> In article <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>, Georgette
> Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> > time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> > in servo moe.
>
> It's your thought processes that are extremely poor. My 10D focuses
> right on 100% of the time, but then I'm a highly trained (former)
> professional.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message news:<100720040845563039%rag@nospam.techline.com>...
> In article <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>, Georgette
> Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> > time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> > in servo moe.
>
> It's your thought processes that are extremely poor.

No, its the AF system. The 10D's AF system is not usable for action
photos, and is extrememly frustrating at best for stills, even on a
tripod it routinely misses.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

In message <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>,
georgette_preddy@yahoo.com (Georgette Preddy) wrote:

>The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
>time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
>in servo moe.

Wrong; *some* early-run 10Ds (before June '03) backfocus 100% of the
time, in all AF modes. The wider the lens, the more pronounced the
effect. Most 10Ds do not back or front-focus by any significant amount.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

JPS@no.komm wrote in message news:<6m70f05iep4vv1m1j3hd4eic3pp5ccbodk@4ax.com>...
> In message <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>,
> georgette_preddy@yahoo.com (Georgette Preddy) wrote:
>
> >The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> >time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> >in servo moe.
>
> Wrong; *some* early-run 10Ds (before June '03) backfocus 100% of the
> time, in all AF modes. The wider the lens, the more pronounced the
> effect. Most 10Ds do not back or front-focus by any significant amount.

Most 10Ds don't produce a sharp enough image to tell one way or the
other, and all have the same low budget AF system. Read about how
terribly frustrated the entire 10D community is here...

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/108868

"Summary: If its critical that your shots are in focus, get a MK II,
you get what you pay for."

Note: Sigma's AF system is simply superlative, always perfect even
with a dramatically sharper sensor, and at less than half the cost
blurry 10D, and with 230% more full color MPs.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

Georgette Preddy wrote:
>
> JPS@no.komm wrote in message news:<6m70f05iep4vv1m1j3hd4eic3pp5ccbodk@4ax.com>...
> > In message <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>,
> > georgette_preddy@yahoo.com (Georgette Preddy) wrote:
> >
> > >The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> > >time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> > >in servo moe.
> >
> > Wrong; *some* early-run 10Ds (before June '03) backfocus 100% of the
> > time, in all AF modes. The wider the lens, the more pronounced the
> > effect. Most 10Ds do not back or front-focus by any significant amount.
>
> Most 10Ds don't produce a sharp enough image to tell one way or the
> other, and all have the same low budget AF system. Read about how
> terribly frustrated the entire 10D community is here...
>
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/108868
>
> "Summary: If its critical that your shots are in focus, get a MK II,
> you get what you pay for."
>
> Note: Sigma's AF system is simply superlative, always perfect even
> with a dramatically sharper sensor, and at less than half the cost
> blurry 10D, and with 230% more full color MPs.

actually less mps.
it just lacks the spatial resolution of the better bayer cameras.

3mp.

too tiny to be of interest.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

Crownfield <Crownfield@cox.net> wrote in message news:<40F0B9D2.4FFA@cox.net>...
> Georgette Preddy wrote:
> > Note: Sigma's AF system is simply superlative, always perfect even
> > with a dramatically sharper sensor, and at less than half the cost
> > blurry 10D, and with 230% more full color MPs.
>
> actually less mps.
> it just lacks the spatial resolution of the better bayer cameras.
>
> 3mp.
>
> too tiny to be of interest.

The 10D only has 1.5 MPs left after color interpolation, the $8000 1Ds
has only 2.7MPs full color. Neither is an option for pro work
(defined as 35mm film quality +).

But far worse, Canon's noise level is enormous compared to National
Semiconductor's Pro 10M sensor...

http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407111014.a3e24c6@posting.google.com...
> But far worse, Canon's noise level is enormous compared to National
> Semiconductor's Pro 10M sensor...
> http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original

I'll give you that, but now look what happens when you throw color into the
mix
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd10/page13.asp (scroll to the bottom).
Richard
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

And don't forget the great low light picture quality of the sigma
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd10/page14.asp
Thanks for reminding about dpreviews test george.
Richard
"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407111014.a3e24c6@posting.google.com...
> Crownfield <Crownfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<40F0B9D2.4FFA@cox.net>...
> > Georgette Preddy wrote:
> > > Note: Sigma's AF system is simply superlative, always perfect even
> > > with a dramatically sharper sensor, and at less than half the cost
> > > blurry 10D, and with 230% more full color MPs.
> >
> > actually less mps.
> > it just lacks the spatial resolution of the better bayer cameras.
> >
> > 3mp.
> >
> > too tiny to be of interest.
>
> The 10D only has 1.5 MPs left after color interpolation, the $8000 1Ds
> has only 2.7MPs full color. Neither is an option for pro work
> (defined as 35mm film quality +).
>
> But far worse, Canon's noise level is enormous compared to National
> Semiconductor's Pro 10M sensor...
>
> http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"marlin" <marlinspike.nospam@verizon.net.nospam> wrote in message news:<nTfIc.42046$Xq4.5979@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>...
> "Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1067e702.0407111014.a3e24c6@posting.google.com...
> > But far worse, Canon's noise level is enormous compared to National
> > Semiconductor's Pro 10M sensor...
> > http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original
>
> I'll give you that, but now look what happens when you throw color into the
> mix
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd10/page13.asp (scroll to the bottom).

Nothing changes. The graphed charts are simple standard deviation
depictions.

Canon's aggressive NR just smears noise into lower frequency blobs,
this lowers standard dev after the shutter closes, but more
importantly it dramatically lowers the purity of the signal.

If you need aggressive NR, your design is already in optical hot
water.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com...
> Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message
news:<090720042113575515%rag@nospam.techline.com>...
> > In article <1067e702.0407091840.4edbe6c9@posting.google.com>, Georgette
> > Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The 10D's AF system is very poor, it shoots away in AF servo mode but
> > > you'll have a virtual 100% throw away rate due to AF missing. Really
> > > bad.
> >
> > Take your lies and sell 'em to Michael Moore...
>
> The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> in servo moe.

I have shot over 2000 pictures with the 10D, and never had much trouble with
the autofocus. Admittedly it did sometimes focus on something other than
what I wanted it to focus on, but the solution was usually just to center on
what I wanted, lock the focus, and then recompose. Worst case scenario I
would explicitly chose which AF area I wanted it to focus on.

So if it is really so bad, I certainly have not noticed.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Nothing changes. The graphed charts are simple standard deviation
> depictions.
> Canon's aggressive NR just smears noise into lower frequency blobs,
> this lowers standard dev after the shutter closes, but more
> importantly it dramatically lowers the purity of the signal.

Let's forget about noise for a second. Do you not see that the colors also
go way off?
Richard
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407101543.711ff2e5@posting.google.com...
> Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message
news:<100720040845563039%rag@nospam.techline.com>...
> > In article <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>, Georgette
> > Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> > > time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the time
> > > in servo moe.
> >
> > It's your thought processes that are extremely poor.
>
> No, its the AF system. The 10D's AF system is not usable for action
> photos, and is extrememly frustrating at best for stills, even on a
> tripod it routinely misses.

Sure, if you want to believe that, Canon's autofocus needs some work:
<http://www.pbase.com/image/28050787/original>

Bart
Bart
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

When you took the pictures, what mode did you use? The sports mode or one
of the manual modes? I would say the Canon has no problems with autofocus
for action pictures.

Alan D.


"Bart van der Wolf" <bvdwolf@no.spam> wrote in message
news:40f2e2d3$0$563$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> "Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1067e702.0407101543.711ff2e5@posting.google.com...
> > Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message
> news:<100720040845563039%rag@nospam.techline.com>...
> > > In article <1067e702.0407100629.2ec9676a@posting.google.com>,
Georgette
> > > Preddy <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The 10D's AF system is extrememly poor. It back focuses 90% of the
> > > > time in single shot mode, and misses significantly 95-100% of the
time
> > > > in servo moe.
> > >
> > > It's your thought processes that are extremely poor.
> >
> > No, its the AF system. The 10D's AF system is not usable for action
> > photos, and is extrememly frustrating at best for stills, even on a
> > tripod it routinely misses.
>
> Sure, if you want to believe that, Canon's autofocus needs some work:
> <http://www.pbase.com/image/28050787/original>
>
> Bart
> Bart
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"marlin" <marlinspike.nospam@verizon.net.nospam> wrote in message news:<MGoIc.51124$qw1.41534@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> "Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Nothing changes. The graphed charts are simple standard deviation
> > depictions.
> > Canon's aggressive NR just smears noise into lower frequency blobs,
> > this lowers standard dev after the shutter closes, but more
> > importantly it dramatically lowers the purity of the signal.
>
> Let's forget about noise for a second.

Not easy when that is the point of the chart.

> Do you not see that the colors also
> go way off?

No. The Canon images aren't even gray anymore at high ISOs, they're
distinctly purple/green...

http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original

And Canon color rendition is consistently too red, you can see it here
too, the Foveon colors are closer...

http://www.pbase.com/canon10d_sigmasd9

....but how could they not be more accurate when Foveon colors are
actually sensed?
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"marlin" <marlinspike.nospam@verizon.net.nospam> wrote in message news:<MGoIc.51124$qw1.41534@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> "Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Nothing changes. The graphed charts are simple standard deviation
> > depictions.
> > Canon's aggressive NR just smears noise into lower frequency blobs,
> > this lowers standard dev after the shutter closes, but more
> > importantly it dramatically lowers the purity of the signal.
>
> Let's forget about noise for a second. Do you not see that the colors also
> go way off?

No. The Canon high ISO images clearly aren't gray anymore, they are
purple/green...

http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original

And Canon is consistently too red, you can see it here too...

http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original

The Foveon images are clearly more color accurate. And how could they
not be? Foveon colors are actually sensed.
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Alan D" <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:3SBIc.203736$DG4.17035@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> When you took the pictures, what mode did you use? The sports mode or one
> of the manual modes? I would say the Canon has no problems with autofocus
> for action pictures.

Not my pictures. For details see
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=8451014, and
the EXIF says 1/3200 sec at F/2.8.

Bart
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407101552.1ad84d8@posting.google.com...
SNIP
> Read about how terribly frustrated the entire 10D community is here...
>
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/108868
>
> "Summary: If its critical that your shots are in focus, get a MK II,
> you get what you pay for."

Yes, those few contributors are also quite satisfied with the AF
capabilities of the 10D, and even more so with the MkII.

Bart
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407112034.7c00ce73@posting.google.com...
SNIP
> If you need aggressive NR, your design is already in optical
> hot water.

Then stop using your SD-9 and switch to something better.

Bart
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment (More info?)

We are talking about different charts. I'm talking about the one at the
BOTTOM of http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd10/page13.asp
Richard
"Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1067e702.0407122205.50d8b55@posting.google.com...
> "marlin" <marlinspike.nospam@verizon.net.nospam> wrote in message
news:<MGoIc.51124$qw1.41534@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> > "Georgette Preddy" <georgette_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > Nothing changes. The graphed charts are simple standard deviation
> > > depictions.
> > > Canon's aggressive NR just smears noise into lower frequency blobs,
> > > this lowers standard dev after the shutter closes, but more
> > > importantly it dramatically lowers the purity of the signal.
> >
> > Let's forget about noise for a second.
>
> Not easy when that is the point of the chart.
>
> > Do you not see that the colors also
> > go way off?
>
> No. The Canon images aren't even gray anymore at high ISOs, they're
> distinctly purple/green...
>
> http://www.pbase.com/image/31155134/original
>
> And Canon color rendition is consistently too red, you can see it here
> too, the Foveon colors are closer...
>
> http://www.pbase.com/canon10d_sigmasd9
>
> ...but how could they not be more accurate when Foveon colors are
> actually sensed?
 
Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.dcameras (More info?)

Go for the 20d
A completely new AF system, bigger image cache, digicII image
processor, and bigger image size.

I know a professional that's selling his 1DS and buying the 20D, a lot
cheaper, and a lot better.
 
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