The Xbox is a horrible benchmark device to compare to, its over 7 years old now. AMDs latest graphics offering, the Radeon 7970 has 3.79 TFLOPS Single Precision compute power. The next console from Microsoft is rumored to have the Radeon HD6670 which has 2.7 TFLOPS compute power. Next gen consoles should have no problem running this engine, especially if they opt for a newer graphics card than the 6000 series.
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The same engine with the same core will be able to run smooth on most if the current phones and at the same time will max out the highest end PCs. We all know this. Consoles will fall somewhere in the middle. In 10 years cell phones will have similar power to the next gen gaming systems, and PCs (if they are still around) will be bordering on photo-realistic ray tracing capabilities....That's what I believe epic is planing for.
Something flashy now is great, but something enduring enough to still be flashy (and still have scale-ability) in 10 years is amazing.
Something flashy now is great, but something enduring enough to still be flashy (and still have scale-ability) in 10 years is amazing.
leakingpaint
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- Jul 2, 2007
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PC is king and always will be. These consoles limit developers too much, they stunt the industries growth a lot of the time.
[citation][nom]psupanova[/nom]I prefer gaming on a console because there is less cheating, you know every one is running similar hardware & its much cheaper than upgrading your graphics card/CPU every two seconds.PC gaming should just die a death.[/citation]
Less cheating, really, are you on crack?
Less cheating, really, are you on crack?
[citation][nom]gokanis[/nom]Less cheating, really, are you on crack?[/citation]
And to continue the thought after my browser died and didn't get the rest of my response. That is no reason to play on a console instead of a PC. In fact if it wern't for the publishers console mentality the pc online games would have servers where you could perm ban cheaters by taking a vote. But now that is taken away from us also in most cases. These cheap console knockoffs are ruining the PC gaming market. Thats why I wait at least a month before buying a game to see if people say it is garbage or not.
And to continue the thought after my browser died and didn't get the rest of my response. That is no reason to play on a console instead of a PC. In fact if it wern't for the publishers console mentality the pc online games would have servers where you could perm ban cheaters by taking a vote. But now that is taken away from us also in most cases. These cheap console knockoffs are ruining the PC gaming market. Thats why I wait at least a month before buying a game to see if people say it is garbage or not.
master9716
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UHH Those graphics cant compare to the Frostbite Engine so why do they act like if it was a huge deal? . They should be ashamed that this is the best they could come up with . I was hoping they gave Frostbite some competition but they dont
juxtaposer
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XBox 360 debut: June 2010 [Wikipedia]
Moore's law: 1.5 to 2 years for doubling [Wikipedia]
Factor of 10 increase in TeraFLOPS (between 2^3 and 2^4)
3*2 = 6, 4*1.5 = 6
ETA: June 2016?
Moore's law: 1.5 to 2 years for doubling [Wikipedia]
Factor of 10 increase in TeraFLOPS (between 2^3 and 2^4)
3*2 = 6, 4*1.5 = 6
ETA: June 2016?
I'm actually surprised to see a game developer use FLOPS to measure gaming performance, or use FLOPS to ask console makers to fulfill their needs. Be careful Tim, because FLOPS number are something console love to claim as marketing ploys. According to Sony, PS3's 2 TFLOPS can render that demo just fine in 24 FPS.
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The demo was running on 3 GTX 580s, so I think Tim's number is based on NVIDIA hardware. So I don't think one can draw equivalent with AMD GPUs. We know in terms of FLOPS, NVIDIA GPUs are generally lower, but in actual games they aren't necessarily slower, so I am not sure if FLOPS means alot when comparing different GPU architectures.
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The demo was running on 3 GTX 580s, so I think Tim's number is based on NVIDIA hardware. So I don't think one can draw equivalent with AMD GPUs. We know in terms of FLOPS, NVIDIA GPUs are generally lower, but in actual games they aren't necessarily slower, so I am not sure if FLOPS means alot when comparing different GPU architectures.
shin0bi272
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wont the next xbox have to deliver more than 10x the performance of the current one to run that demo? Since both the next xbox and playstation are saying they are going to be using amd graphics which dont support nvidia physx like the unreal engine does they will need to have much more power in them to run that demo exactly the way it ran on an nvidia card.
hannibal
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Well reduce the graphic quality and resolution enough and even Xbox360 can run that demo... It will not look guite the same, but it can be done...
We can be sure that the next generation consoles does not run that demo at that resolution and with those settings. These are just relative number that would be needed until we could get a game that would look like Samatarian (well at least have same effects. With tricks allmost same visuals can be achieved. There is a lot of hair and cloth animation that is normally leaved of when making a game, because you don't see those things in the speed of the game. So game can look great without being as detailed.
I hope that we see some PC only games that push UE3 that high, but most will be pure console ports with some "extra" lighning effects... So much cheaper to do it that way... *sigh*
We can be sure that the next generation consoles does not run that demo at that resolution and with those settings. These are just relative number that would be needed until we could get a game that would look like Samatarian (well at least have same effects. With tricks allmost same visuals can be achieved. There is a lot of hair and cloth animation that is normally leaved of when making a game, because you don't see those things in the speed of the game. So game can look great without being as detailed.
I hope that we see some PC only games that push UE3 that high, but most will be pure console ports with some "extra" lighning effects... So much cheaper to do it that way... *sigh*
alfaalex101
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Judging by the way things are looking - I think I'm going to become a Sony fan. Sony's cell processor was just a hint at how outrageously fast they WANTED their systems to be. Too bad on the GPU side they slacked a little bit but whatever. Paying around $500 to MSFT for the new console knowing that it will have a by release, $60 video card is just an insult. Seems like a budget computer minus the fun. I couldn't care less if the PS4 would cost $800. It's usually well off men, parents that like to spoil, rich kids and/or poor kids that saved up for years that get these consoles at launch anyway. After a while prices go down and low and behold paying for a $500 console won't feel so bad especially when it's running a Samaritan equivalent game and Xbox 3 is running a 30fps 720p Wii like replica. This is a time where ATi and Nvidia are making GPU's that are coming *damn near close* to rendering real life visuals and MSFT/Sony have a choice of either making their console capable of imitating real life or replicating it. The difference will be noticeable as when in 2005 we all expected the games to look fake and plastic.
[citation][nom]palladin9479[/nom]Short Answer: Read the Article, its in the title.Long Answer:The developer of the engine stated that it would need 2.5TFlops to properly run it's engine at 1920x1080 @30 FPS....[/citation]
You said it yourself it's in the title, you don't need that much horsepower to run the "engine" you need that to run the SAMARITAN DEMO!!! or probably something else that looks like that... read carefully before trying to correct something or you'll end up to be the dumb one.
You said it yourself it's in the title, you don't need that much horsepower to run the "engine" you need that to run the SAMARITAN DEMO!!! or probably something else that looks like that... read carefully before trying to correct something or you'll end up to be the dumb one.
blazorthon
Glorious
- Sep 24, 2010
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[citation][nom]djpepper[/nom]The Xbox is a horrible benchmark device to compare to, its over 7 years old now. AMDs latest graphics offering, the Radeon 7970 has 3.79 TFLOPS Single Precision compute power. The next console from Microsoft is rumored to have the Radeon HD6670 which has 2.7 TFLOPS compute power. Next gen consoles should have no problem running this engine, especially if they opt for a newer graphics card than the 6000 series.[/citation]
...
The Radeon 6970 has about 2.7TFLOPS, the 6670 is nowhere near there. The Radeon 6770 is about half the performance of the 6970, maybe the 6790 is half. The 6670 is much slower than the 6770. Think about that... Without looking it up, I've already found out that it is between a third and a quarter of the 6970s performance. The 6670 doesn't come close to 2.7TFLOPS of single precision performance, it might be somewhere around 1TFLOPS or less. I just looked it up and it is 768GFLOPS single precision, well under even 1TFLOPS.
A next generation console should have a 7850 or 6950 card if they want to go AMD. That way it can handle current PC quality games at 1080p and max settings with high enough frame rates. Anything less than those cards will not be even as good as the upper part of the mid-range PC gaming today and would be outdated tech as soon as it comes out. The 6670 is about as fast as an old 4700 card, as depicted in Tom's graphics hierarchy chart.
Even playing at 720p with top PC quality would need at least the Radeon 6750, preferably the 6770, 6790, or 7750. I understand that since the Radeon 7700 and 7800 cards weren't pictured early enough to be considered for consoles until recently, but even the 6770 or better should have been the target for 720p and the 6870 or 6950 should have been the target for 1080p.
With Southern Islands using so much less power I think it's reasonable to have a 7800 card without using too much power. Of course, then the console would be more expensive... Ehh, you want gaming at least as good as mid-end gaming today then you shouldn't be worried. Prices will go down for graphics sooner or later anyway. We should see 6950ish performance for 6870ish or 6850ish prices after Kepler comes along. However, whether or not we will see reduced prices as it is supposed to happen remains to be seen... Nvidia seems to be trying to get it to happen, but AMD has not done anything that even implies they want to retain their position as the better value for the next gen cards. I'm sure that the consoles may be able to get similar graphics performance to PCs with slightly inferior hardware because of their more optimized software, but lets be reasonable.
Am I wrong to expect the new consoles to perform like they are current hardware, not almost half the age of those that they replace?
...
The Radeon 6970 has about 2.7TFLOPS, the 6670 is nowhere near there. The Radeon 6770 is about half the performance of the 6970, maybe the 6790 is half. The 6670 is much slower than the 6770. Think about that... Without looking it up, I've already found out that it is between a third and a quarter of the 6970s performance. The 6670 doesn't come close to 2.7TFLOPS of single precision performance, it might be somewhere around 1TFLOPS or less. I just looked it up and it is 768GFLOPS single precision, well under even 1TFLOPS.
A next generation console should have a 7850 or 6950 card if they want to go AMD. That way it can handle current PC quality games at 1080p and max settings with high enough frame rates. Anything less than those cards will not be even as good as the upper part of the mid-range PC gaming today and would be outdated tech as soon as it comes out. The 6670 is about as fast as an old 4700 card, as depicted in Tom's graphics hierarchy chart.
Even playing at 720p with top PC quality would need at least the Radeon 6750, preferably the 6770, 6790, or 7750. I understand that since the Radeon 7700 and 7800 cards weren't pictured early enough to be considered for consoles until recently, but even the 6770 or better should have been the target for 720p and the 6870 or 6950 should have been the target for 1080p.
With Southern Islands using so much less power I think it's reasonable to have a 7800 card without using too much power. Of course, then the console would be more expensive... Ehh, you want gaming at least as good as mid-end gaming today then you shouldn't be worried. Prices will go down for graphics sooner or later anyway. We should see 6950ish performance for 6870ish or 6850ish prices after Kepler comes along. However, whether or not we will see reduced prices as it is supposed to happen remains to be seen... Nvidia seems to be trying to get it to happen, but AMD has not done anything that even implies they want to retain their position as the better value for the next gen cards. I'm sure that the consoles may be able to get similar graphics performance to PCs with slightly inferior hardware because of their more optimized software, but lets be reasonable.
Am I wrong to expect the new consoles to perform like they are current hardware, not almost half the age of those that they replace?
XZaapryca
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[citation][nom]juxtaposer[/nom]XBox 360 debut: June 2010 [Wikipedia]Moore's law: 1.5 to 2 years for doubling [Wikipedia]Factor of 10 increase in TeraFLOPS (between 2^3 and 2^4)3*2 = 6, 4*1.5 = 6ETA: June 2016?[/citation]
June 2010? What about November 2005? Other than color, case style, and connectivity options, it's still the same box since 2005.
June 2010? What about November 2005? Other than color, case style, and connectivity options, it's still the same box since 2005.
blazorthon
Glorious
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Also worth mentioning is that compute performance isn't directly tied to graphics performance. The GTX 580 is a faster graphics card than the Radeon 6970, yet the Radeon has a much higher compute performance.
The GTX 580 is also better at GPGPU work that supports CUDA than GPGPU work on Radeons. However, Radeons are known for being much better than Geforces at bit mining. It all depends on a wide range of factors, compute performance is not the only one.
The GTX 580 is also better at GPGPU work that supports CUDA than GPGPU work on Radeons. However, Radeons are known for being much better than Geforces at bit mining. It all depends on a wide range of factors, compute performance is not the only one.
rohitbaran
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blazorthon
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Moore's law doesn't dictate performance at all and TFLOPS don't dictate performance very well either. Also,
This matters too. The newest Xbox 360 and the oldest have the same performance. The other difference that this poster didn't mention is that the newer Xbox models use less power than the older ones.
Besides that, your math isn't to great because you used extreme rounding. that won't get you a good answer. Besides that, Moore's law slows down as time goes on too. Moore's law is the rule of thumb for increasing transistor density, the amount of trnasistors you can fit within a certain area double every certain amount of time. It started off closer to every 12 months.
blazorthon
Glorious
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To be fair, the Xbox 360 and PS3 weren't that bad for their time. The Wii wasn't intended for good graphics to begin with, just as something to play around on. I think of the Wii as more of a toy than the other consoles. Not that I don't use it, but I use it more for Netflix than gaming.
The problem as I see it is that the consoles should have either been upgraded or replaced a year or two ago.
[citation][nom]alidan[/nom]if i want to see unreal engine 4 handle the Samaritan demo, and tell us the processing power needed. if it required more, the engine is crap, if it requires less, the engine is at least headed in the right direction. all i want to see out of the next consoles is tessellation, it will be the single biggest jump in quality we could hope for. devs already use high resolution models, if consoles use tessellation, we can expect it to trickle to the pc, we already get high resolution textures the models are the last things we need. and also, we should work on passive ways to improve quality, like tessellation, not new ways to make a game cost more.do we really need a game to look better than modern warfare 3? (i dont play it but i can respect the engine) imagine the game with tessellation applied to it. now add in some newer lighting effects.anywhere there is water, a physics loop of water to make it look real, instead of a flat surface with textures applied to it. now give the game the stereo sound of blacklight retribution (hands down the best sound i have heard in a game in years, i have hd555 headphones, and i can tell what direction the sound is comeing from and how far away it is... its simply amazing.)increase the texture size a bit, and there you go... everything i said is more or less a passive system that would increase the quality without increasing the cost to develop. games already cost to much to make, if they use the increased quality in graphics to justify costing even more...[/citation]
Consoles are dead of course there will be a few new ones over the next few years, they started designing them a few years ago. that was before the tablet market started kicking their collective arses in sales.
my brothers kids play a leappad with gameboy style cartridges that can connect to the PC via usb or to the TV via hmdi mini.
iPads already have wireless, do the math.
all that needs to happen is a 14"+ screen and some dpad & stylus like the gameboy advance with the functionality of an iPad and horse power of Amd's bulldozer series with wireless connectivity and gaming will have gone mostly mobile.
either your console evolves into a mobile hand held or it dies out as the next generation is already being programmed for the hand held mobile direction things are gravitating toward.
there is one console generation release left before they HAVE to become mobile or go extinct.
that writing has been on the walls for years.
it is my sincerest hope that UE4 marks the death of non mobile consoles once and for all and brings elite gaming back to the PC while relegating everything less to mobile pc gaming devices.
Consoles are dead of course there will be a few new ones over the next few years, they started designing them a few years ago. that was before the tablet market started kicking their collective arses in sales.
my brothers kids play a leappad with gameboy style cartridges that can connect to the PC via usb or to the TV via hmdi mini.
iPads already have wireless, do the math.
all that needs to happen is a 14"+ screen and some dpad & stylus like the gameboy advance with the functionality of an iPad and horse power of Amd's bulldozer series with wireless connectivity and gaming will have gone mostly mobile.
either your console evolves into a mobile hand held or it dies out as the next generation is already being programmed for the hand held mobile direction things are gravitating toward.
there is one console generation release left before they HAVE to become mobile or go extinct.
that writing has been on the walls for years.
it is my sincerest hope that UE4 marks the death of non mobile consoles once and for all and brings elite gaming back to the PC while relegating everything less to mobile pc gaming devices.
eddieroolz
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