ESP and telepathy

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Which is better and why?
I can't find a good explanation how both of them work. I've read (at
The Poet's Anguide) that telepathy is slightly better than ESP, because
it detects more monsters like magic mushrooms for example.
Are both of them abilities which can be given to ego items? I found a
blessed weapon which I haven't *identified* yet, which has apparently
ESP (no detection of magic maushrooms).
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Maybe I misunderstood this:
"Telepathy. Very few things are better than ESP- you can see most
monsters coming from a long way off with this ability. It is especially
good for warriors. The best news... it detects both Death Molds and
Magic Mushrooms!"
That could also mean, that telepathy and ESP are the same, but why
didn't it detect magic mushrooms?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Sounds interesting. :)

But what about the magic mushroom (nasty bastard 😉). Is it "weird"´?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Mondkalb wrote:
> Which is better and why?

Same thing. At least in vanilla angband.

ESP/Telepathy detects all monsters that doesn't have EMPTY_MIND or
WEIRD_MIND -flag. Almost all dangerous monsters show on telepathy.

I have though of separating those two in my variant. ESP would detect
nearly everything including traps and doors, but shows monsters as
mobile questionmarks, and Telepathy would show only intelligent monsters
too but with drawback that monster has possibility to immediately detect
player too if player is lower level than monster lvl/2. Still in process
of coding (mainly playing, though).

Timo Pietilä
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Mondkalb wrote:
> Sounds interesting. :)
>
> But what about the magic mushroom (nasty bastard 😉). Is it "weird"´?

EMPTY_MIND. IE it doesn't show at all in ESP.

Timo Pietilä
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Telepathy would show only intelligent monsters
> too but with drawback that monster has possibility to immediately detect
> player too if player is lower level than monster lvl/2.

Isn't that a bit pointless? It will only happen if the monster is way
deeper than the player. This means either the monster is OOD, or the
player's deeper than 2500' but not yet CL50. Making OOD monsters even
more dangerous isn't very balancing, nor is making a short, specific
section of the game more dangerous.

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"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
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Twisted One wrote:
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>
>> Telepathy would show only intelligent monsters too but with drawback
>> that monster has possibility to immediately detect player too if
>> player is lower level than monster lvl/2.
>
> Isn't that a bit pointless? It will only happen if the monster is way
> deeper than the player. This means either the monster is OOD, or the
> player's deeper than 2500' but not yet CL50.

Isn't this a case for most of the game? You are deeper than your clvl?
At 2500' you are just half-way thru game. If you are at clvl 30 at dlvl
2500' (50) then just 10 lvls OoD monster has a chance to detect you
immediately. If you are at 3000' with clvl 30 char you can have
everybody against you. Note that this isn't any worse than aggravation,
it only affects selected monster.

> Making OOD monsters even
> more dangerous isn't very balancing, nor is making a short, specific
> section of the game more dangerous.

That's the point. Making telepathy have a drawback. It's my variant and
it will not be easy but it should be quick for skilled player. I'm
making it slighly faster than vanilla (by adjusting how stats affect
your development).

Timo Pietilä
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Isn't this a case for most of the game? You are deeper than your clvl?
> At 2500' you are just half-way thru game. If you are at clvl 30 at dlvl
> 2500' (50) then just 10 lvls OoD monster has a chance to detect you
> immediately. If you are at 3000' with clvl 30 char you can have
> everybody against you. Note that this isn't any worse than aggravation,
> it only affects selected monster.

In Vanilla? You must be either joking, or assuming the player's name is
"Eddie". 😛

Warriors tend to keep clvl and dlvl close through statgain. Mages and
such keep clvl even higher relative to dlvl. Typical (non-Eddie) player
is around clvl mid or late 30s at the end of statgain, 2000'. At that
point dlvl exceeds clvl but only by a handful. And that's usually the
case until clvl 50.

Your thing requires player level be less than half monster level. Player
level is often monster level to double monster level until statgain,
drops to around monster level at 2000' (most monsters generated at 2000'
being native to 1800' or less), and drops below monster level during
that hairy post statgain period from 2000' to 3000'. But none of that
will actually be spent below half monster level, and once the player
reaches level 50 (generally somewhere in that stretch, or not much later
than 3000' anyway) the player level is never less than half monster
level even for OOD monsters.

So, monsters with level more than double the player level occur mainly
in 2 situations: when the monster is OOD, and not just a little but a
fair bit, and when the player is in around 2250-3250' and the monster is
OOD but not necessarily by very much.

Let's chart typical warrior progression in V.

Plev Depth Dlev How OOD monster must be Note
1 50' 1 1 1
10 500' 10 10 1
20 1000' 20 20 1
30 1500' 30 30 2
36 2000' 40 32 2
39 2500' 50 28 2
45 3000' 60 30 2
50 3250' 65 35 3

Notes:
1 -- Player won't have telepathy yet
2 -- Monster would probably have to be generated in a greater vault
3 -- Monster would have native depth exceeding Morgoth's

Basically, barring an unusually early telepathy find or a player named
Eddie, your proposed monster-awakening thing would basically just wake
up the worst monsters in greater vaults as soon as the player got close.
Balanced it isn't.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Until
> statgain, if not later, invisible monsters are particularly troublesome
> because they aren't readily detectable. And I've had 3 vanilla mages to
> statgain.

Detect Invisible is in the 3rd book, and mages get it IIRC about clev
12 - so that's dlev 6 for you :) I find the first really dangerous
invisible monsters for mages are Dreads, as they can often come from
out of detection range (and even then, more frequent detection is all
that's needed).

Nick.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-01 11:25:47, Twisted One <twisted0n3@gmail.invalid> wrote:

<long rant about telepathy changes>

Get some 'Detection' and use it.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>
>> Isn't this a case for most of the game? You are deeper than your clvl?
>> At 2500' you are just half-way thru game. If you are at clvl 30 at
>> dlvl 2500' (50) then just 10 lvls OoD monster has a chance to detect
>> you immediately. If you are at 3000' with clvl 30 char you can have
>> everybody against you. Note that this isn't any worse than
>> aggravation, it only affects selected monster.
>
>
> In Vanilla? You must be either joking, or assuming the player's name is
> "Eddie". 😛
>
> Warriors tend to keep clvl and dlvl close through statgain. Mages and
> such keep clvl even higher relative to dlvl. Typical (non-Eddie) player
> is around clvl mid or late 30s at the end of statgain, 2000'. At that
> point dlvl exceeds clvl but only by a handful. And that's usually the
> case until clvl 50.
>

Why would a mage play so slow?
Free detection and high stealth means you fight what you want.

I am not an experienced Vanilla player, I have never won it. But last
weekend my HE mage just found the last stat-potion needed, at dlvl 61,
20 levels deeper than you suggest as I have clv 37.

I don't think I have exceptional equipment. I still haven't found any
gloves I could use, and I wield a shield of Resist Acid for the AC
bonus. Permanent Speed is +7 (Boots of Speed +5 and Bard). I got
Telepathy around dlvl 55 (Thranduil).

At dlvl 50 / clvl 30 I stopped for a while as I had no permanent speed
items and I wanted to be safe against double moves by fast (speed +10)
creatures.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Juho Schultz wrote:
[Mages staying at cl = 2*dl until statgain]
> Why would a mage play so slow?

The usual reason in a *band: so as to not die. Low hps are the major
limiting factor.

> Free detection and high stealth means you fight what you want.

What high stealth? My mages have never had before statgain a sure
ability to pick their battles and not get sneak-attacked. Until
statgain, if not later, invisible monsters are particularly troublesome
because they aren't readily detectable. And I've had 3 vanilla mages to
statgain.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Juho Schultz wrote:
> [Mages staying at cl = 2*dl until statgain]
>
>> Why would a mage play so slow?
>
>
> The usual reason in a *band: so as to not die. Low hps are the major
> limiting factor.
>
>> Free detection and high stealth means you fight what you want.
>
>
> What high stealth? My mages have never had before statgain a sure
> ability to pick their battles and not get sneak-attacked. Until
> statgain, if not later, invisible monsters are particularly troublesome
> because they aren't readily detectable. And I've had 3 vanilla mages to
> statgain.
>
Well, this is my 3rd vanilla mage in statgain.
Previous one was the YASD thread a few weeks ago (Dracolich in GCV)

I had superb stealth for most of the time. This is a High-Elf (+3)
Mage (+2) with a Cloak of the Magi (+2). Around dlvl 30 I also had a
Defender (+3) and an Armor of Elvenkind (+2), total is 12.

Now I have dumped the Defender and Elvenkind but I get +1 from
Barahir, total is +8 which is still superb.

I guess I had a bit of luck with the pvals, but RNG compensated this by
shields - I am wielding a shield Resist Acid at dlvl 61. And I found
that at dlvl 58 or something.

Vanilla mages get detect invisible in the 3rd town book which you must
carry anyway, as it has satisfy hunger, identify, stone to mud.
(at least in 3.0.4 and later)
 
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Juho Schultz wrote:
> I had superb stealth for most of the time. This is a High-Elf (+3)
> Mage (+2) with a Cloak of the Magi (+2). Around dlvl 30 I also had a
> Defender (+3) and an Armor of Elvenkind (+2), total is 12.

Lucky with all the stealth items. Or unlucky with finding yummy
artifacts that blow away things like the defender and cloak, perhaps.
From the rest of your description, it sounds like you might have made
the horrible mistake of not using autoscum this game.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Juho Schultz wrote:
>
>> I had superb stealth for most of the time. This is a High-Elf (+3)
>> Mage (+2) with a Cloak of the Magi (+2). Around dlvl 30 I also had a
>> Defender (+3) and an Armor of Elvenkind (+2), total is 12.
>
>
> Lucky with all the stealth items. Or unlucky with finding yummy
> artifacts that blow away things like the defender and cloak, perhaps.
> From the rest of your description, it sounds like you might have made
> the horrible mistake of not using autoscum this game.
>
I have had autoscum on since the start.

Cloak with Sustain INT and +2 to INT at dlvl 28 is very good luck for
a mage. I also had luck with the books, only the last one is missing.
INT Potions were another lucky point. I had already bought three
(one was 90% off) before finding the 1st one.

Gloves of Free Action and plain Shield of Deflection are not the
sort of gear I'd select for dlvl 63 but that is the best I have.

I have rbase, poison, confusion, blindness, sound, ESP, FA, SI, maxxed
INT/CON, and +7 to speed.

I only need Thorin (rchaos, I also could dump the CON ring and wield
the Speed ring Itangast dropped at dlvl 49) and the last book.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Juho Schultz wrote:
> Cloak with Sustain INT and +2 to INT at dlvl 28 is very good luck for
> a mage. I also had luck with the books, only the last one is missing.
> INT Potions were another lucky point. I had already bought three
> (one was 90% off) before finding the 1st one.

You're only at 1400'? No wonder you haven't found more artifacts, or
much better than your defender for weaponry. Somehow I had the
impression you were further along...

> Gloves of Free Action and plain Shield of Deflection are not the
> sort of gear I'd select for dlvl 63 but that is the best I have.

Wait -- I thought you just said you were at 1400'? If you're at 3150'
without better equipment than you had at 1400' then something is screwy,
especially if autoscum is on, also if you're not dead yet. :)

> I have rbase, poison, confusion, blindness, sound, ESP, FA, SI, maxxed
> INT/CON, and +7 to speed.

Sounds good, but you're still using more ego items than artifacts? Ego
items found by statgain at that?

> I only need Thorin (rchaos, I also could dump the CON ring and wield
> the Speed ring Itangast dropped at dlvl 49) and the last book.

Those would be good -- then you'll have speed to dive and hunt uniques,
and you'll probably have the means to get up to +30 unhasted from the
deep unique drops that drop_great down there. And likely some yummy
dragon scale mails and certainly some more artifacts.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Juho Schultz wrote:
>
>> Cloak with Sustain INT and +2 to INT at dlvl 28 is very good luck for
>> a mage. I also had luck with the books, only the last one is missing.
>> INT Potions were another lucky point. I had already bought three
>> (one was 90% off) before finding the 1st one.
>
>
> You're only at 1400'? No wonder you haven't found more artifacts, or
> much better than your defender for weaponry. Somehow I had the
> impression you were further along...
>
I found the Cloak of Magi at 1400' and still wield it at 3150.
My broken English may be a bit obscure sometimes, sorry about that.
I think the Cloak is lucky find for 1400', especially when playing mage.

>> Gloves of Free Action and plain Shield of Deflection are not the
>> sort of gear I'd select for dlvl 63 but that is the best I have.
>
>
> Wait -- I thought you just said you were at 1400'? If you're at 3150'
> without better equipment than you had at 1400' then something is screwy,
> especially if autoscum is on, also if you're not dead yet. :)
>
>> I have rbase, poison, confusion, blindness, sound, ESP, FA, SI, maxxed
>> INT/CON, and +7 to speed.
>
>
> Sounds good, but you're still using more ego items than artifacts? Ego
> items found by statgain at that?
>

I am at 3150', and most of the present equipment is found after dlvl 40.
Equipment now: Theoden, Bard, Barahir, =oCON(+6), Carlammas, Phial,
Rohirrim, Cloak of Magi (+2), Shield of Deflection (non-ego), Thranduil,
Gauntlets of Free Action, and Boots of Speed (+5).

Carlammas replaced an Amulet of Devotion at dlvl 62. Shield and
Gauntlets are also new finds, but others I have wielded for some time.

>> I only need Thorin (rchaos, I also could dump the CON ring and wield
>> the Speed ring Itangast dropped at dlvl 49) and the last book.
>
>
> Those would be good -- then you'll have speed to dive and hunt uniques,
> and you'll probably have the means to get up to +30 unhasted from the
> deep unique drops that drop_great down there. And likely some yummy
> dragon scale mails and certainly some more artifacts.
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Juho Schultz" <juho.schultz@helsinki.fi> schrieb...

>> You're only at 1400'? No wonder you haven't found more artifacts, or
>> much better than your defender for weaponry. Somehow I had the
>> impression you were further along...
>>
> I found the Cloak of Magi at 1400' and still wield it at 3150.
> My broken English may be a bit obscure sometimes, sorry about that.

IMO this was perfectly clear.
But probably because i'm not a native english speaker, too.

>> Sounds good, but you're still using more ego items than artifacts? Ego
>> items found by statgain at that?
>
> I am at 3150', and most of the present equipment is found after dlvl 40.
> Equipment now: Theoden, Bard, Barahir, =oCON(+6), Carlammas, Phial,
> Rohirrim, Cloak of Magi (+2), Shield of Deflection (non-ego), Thranduil,
> Gauntlets of Free Action, and Boots of Speed (+5).

Just bad luck, i think.

My current (hobbit) warrior at 2300' has:
Balli Stonehand
Light xbow of extra might
Phial
elfenkind armor (resist confusion)
resistace shield (just found, replaced shield of resist acid)
gauntlets of power (no paur* found, but these one are better)
Cloak of stealth
Helm of seeing
Boots of speed (+2)
Amulet of sustainance
and two rings of speed (+10) and (+7)
wait - just replaced the (+7) with a new found ring of resist poison

Found many artifact weapons (Sting, Pain, Zarcuthra, many daggers, ...),
but only a single piece of artifact armor (Thengel)

Werner.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:02:02 +0200, Werner Bär wrote:

(snip)
>My current (hobbit) warrior at 2300' has:
(snip)
>Boots of speed (+2)
>Amulet of sustainance
>and two rings of speed (+10) and (+7)

Lucky %$#%$*&!

My dwarf warrior was somewhere between 2500' and 3000' before finding
his first speed ring or boots.

Best, Hugo
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There is a puff of smoke!

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