Exploring Below Ambient Water Cooling

[toolmaker_03]

if I may some theory please let me see if I understand this correctly you balance the clocks on your system so that the equivalent temperature of the loop is between 70 F and 100 F under load and the idol temps would be around 10 degrees below ambient is this about right if so then adding more ice allows for greater clocks right but you still have to balance the outcome to what the ice is capable of removing from the water so in a way the ice has become your radiator idea wonder if you could achieve greater results if you molded your ice into different shapes for instance tall thin cubes so that the water would have to flow through them maybe around 60 mm thick and roughly the size of the cooler. maybe try 3 to start, the type of bags that you can seal with a iron would work well for this idea. cut like 3 holes into the bag, seal the area around the holes. fill the bag about 3/4 the way full, and some kind of rack system in the cooler for support, to hold the bags up as they melt. it's just a idea, by the way what kind of results where you getting with the ice cubes, I would think that it would be pretty good compared to milk jugs, but I may be wrong.

 

[toolmaker_03]

so I have been thinking about this duel loop design that you have, and I came up with a way to isolate the cpu from the main loop so that it runs to only the cooler, i was using 2 T's, 2 4 ways, and 6 shout off valves. and if i wanted to stop using the cooler for a few hours, i could return the processor to the loop and isolate the cooler from the loop. it is just a idea about how to make it easier to work on, but would like to hear more about your setup.

 

[Reynod]

I had a below ambient water cooling solution a few years ago using a silverprop waterblock, Swiftech pump, and a refrigerated drinking fountain (600 Watt unit) with the standard tank onside the top, and after tinkering with the thermostat managed to get it to run nicely at a few degrees above zero (no load).

My problem was insufficient lagging on the pipe going in and out of the waterblock, and insufficient thermal insulation around the block ... condensation.

I killeda decent graphics card one day die to moisture so I removed the system.

Whilst it was efficent and great for decent sustained overclocking the issues with condensation with this unit and other types of its kind were not sustainable for me.

Below ambient watercooling is for real enthusiasts but perhaps not for the unwary or those new to the "sport" but the you seemed to have avoided the condensation issues so thats a big plus ... albeit the lower temps allow better overclocking I guess.

Great work Ry and good critique and ideas too rubix.

You guys (and others) are doing great work in the watercooling area.

 

[sam_fisher]

I have a genuine question here so don't hate on me. Would it be viable to run the loop into a freezer (or cold fridge), and have the reservoir sitting in that freezer. That way the freezer could constantly cool the water, and you could get it as near 0 as you could. Just wondering why that hasn't been implemented - then you wouldn't have to change the ice all the time.

 

[4745454b]

Ryan could have 0 degree cooling if he wants to change the ice all the time. Hitting cold temps isn't an issue.

This "idea" comes up a lot. People want to run their cooling through a mini fridge or other such thing. The problem with this idea is how they work. They cycle on and off slowing bringing the temp of things down. Once its cold they then continue cycle (even slower) to keep your food cold. The problem is your CPU doesn't cycle. Its CONSTANTLY putting out 100-200W of heat all the time. This heat output will overwhelm the small cooling ability of these devices and your CPU will cook while your pump will die.

Nothing wrong with the idea if you can find a big enough unit to handle that much heat. But by then your probably better off doing something else that would be cheaper.

 

[arthurh]

I did not take any pictures.

I currently use the same cooling method that Ryan does and have for a long time. I do not mind the extra maintenence it requires as it suites my needs 100%.

I originally started a simular cooling solution in 2008 with a new build to play FSX well. I built a Q9550 platform (775) and OC'd it to 4GHz.

Was a nice setup for its time, no match for my 2500k @ 4.5GHz which is my main PC for gaming now.

I really enjoy experimenting with my PC and so does Ryan. We often use each other as sounding boards for some idea we have come up with just to get another opinion about it.

I have a very high regard for Ryans input and what he has shared here is not for the lazy or faint of heart. If not maintained this solution could easily take out your CPU,GPU etc.

This solution is really not hard to do, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand it and put it to use.

Ryan has given all the main warnings you need to know and I concur. For whatever that is worth.

Nice job Ry! Art

 

[Motopsychojdn]

The radbox bug has struck hard around here.

Erm, sorry 'bout that....


Having added two sensors to my own loop recently I've noticed my water sensor (in one of the T-Virus resses) is usually below the registered readout for the room temp one, (mounted above Pc to gauge room temp, I swapped sensors, unplugged them so only one was reading at a time, its baffling me, its maybe 1-2'c under but still,
I thought you couldn't go sub-ambient,
Laws of physics?
Meh,

Good to see this is still going strong Ryan, I do love it hehe, I just need a volunteer for my buried reservoir idea......
I can't do it, Pc rooms on second floor (First floor UK,upstairs )
Moto

 

[4Ryan6]

Moto adding the Rad Box for the GPUs has made a significant difference regarding the Ice Time of efficiency cooling the CPU, that was a great idea you came up with!

Pictures were added up top.

 

[4Ryan6]

Thank You ArthurH! Ry

 

[4Ryan6]

Ryan could have 0 degree cooling if he wants to change the ice all the time. Hitting cold temps isn't an issue.

This "idea" comes up a lot. People want to run their cooling through a mini fridge or other such thing. The problem with this idea is how they work. They cycle on and off slowing bringing the temp of things down. Once its cold they then continue cycle (even slower) to keep your food cold. The problem is your CPU doesn't cycle. Its CONSTANTLY putting out 100-200W of heat all the time. This heat output will overwhelm the small cooling ability of these devices and your CPU will cook while your pump will die.

Nothing wrong with the idea if you can find a big enough unit to handle that much heat. But by then your probably better off doing something else that would be cheaper.

Regarding commenting to; sam_fisher I fully agree! Thank You! Ry

 

[Motopsychojdn]

Glad you benefitted from the project too man
what would you attribute it to?
more volume? (Previously though irrelevant as Eq time just increases)
enhanced cooling due to larger area of dissipation maybe? (I would give this credence)
or any ideas I hadn't considered?
is the effective Icetime increased marginally,substantially?
I also had Monstermawd watching the project apparently as well
Moto

 

[4Ryan6]

Glad you benefitted from the project too man
what would you attribute it to?
more volume? (Previously though irrelevant as Eq time just increases)
enhanced cooling due to larger area of dissipation maybe? (I would give this credence)
or any ideas I hadn't considered?
is the effective Icetime increased marginally,substantially?
I also had Monstermawd watching the project apparently as well
Moto

Ice usage is cut in half, one frozen jug does what it took 2 to do.

Plus there is still a 40C load drop on the GPUs with the fans on the Rad Box running their lowest speeds, so there's plenty of cranking room left when needed to extra cool the GPUs.

 

[4Ryan6]

@ sam_fisher

4745454b has answered your question. Thanks

@ reynod Thank You! Ry

 

[Motopsychojdn]

In half? Christ thats a difference lol,
I recall you mentioning having to up the Ice when you added the cards in, from 6 jugs to 10 was it?
I'm very impressed at a 40'c drop man, bloody hell thats awesome
I can see you having to mind the condensation if you crank the fans right up but hey, overkill lets us run them low and quiet hehe
Moto

 

[4Ryan6]

Considering it was done years ago and mainly just to see what would happen, it wouldn't scale well to today's hardware standards without some changes in heat exchanger surface area/volume and updated heat loads. The main reason I've mentioned it was due to the similarities of the project.

I was seeing condensation on the CPU block, which required me to maintain high airflow around the block along with some paper towels to help absorb the water. I don't recall there being an excessive amount to the point of drops dripping, but it was noticeable. I don't think I was using any sort of temp monitoring...maybe ASUS Probe, which in itself was far from accurate. I don't recall if there were a lot of viable temp monitoring tools that I knew of at that time, to be honest.

The main reason that I don't use this as a cooling solution now (scaled up, obviously) is simply from a standpoint of practicality and mobility. I occasionally go to LANs (although much less over the past few years) or even to do some gaming at a friend's house instead of all being remote and online. I also do not want to maintain an ice supply in order to cool the water in the slushbox. I simply had a 5 gallon bucket and a bag of ice from the grocery store for my testing/experimentation I did long ago. I know that I would obviously need a different approach with a long-term design, but I have no desire to constantly maintain ice for this purpose. True, there are other alternatives for 24/7 operation in addition to this design, but I'd rather have the 24/7 without the downside to the 'when I want the ice' part of the time.

I've never questioned that your cooling solution didn't work; my main point of offering ideas or suggestions was to further the options for other forum members reading about your build. The original thread was either deleted or is lost in the forum somewhere, so while I know I have mentioned the heat exchangers a few times, not everyone has read the old thread to have seen them.

The DIY factor and results speak for themselves as to how well your setup is working. I think that is overwhelmingly established.

Thank You for clarifying that, Sorry if I came across a little cross!

I'm fully aware at this point after having to address 11 months ago numerous concerns that all those concerns have been addressed, fully answered, and resolved.

The reason I did not completely repost the old posting is those concerns are now addressed up top for those taking the time to read what is completely newly written.

This is not a lan party solution clearly stated up top, and whether someone decides to use this cooling solution and invest the time in maintenance care is totally there prerogative, it is a viable alternative, simple as that. Thank You! Ry

 

[Motopsychojdn]

^I think we need to work on a Lanparty variant
/Brain starts gurgling away.....
Cars have aircon with coolant gas, maybe a place to start...
Moto

 

[4Ryan6]

In half? Christ thats a difference lol,
I recall you mentioning having to up the Ice when you added the cards in, from 6 jugs to 10 was it?
I'm very impressed at a 40'c drop man, bloody hell thats awesome
I can see you having to mind the condensation if you crank the fans right up but hey, overkill lets us run them low and quiet hehe
Moto

The only condensation concern now is the CPU Ice Cooling, the Rad Box has eliminated the condensation concern on the GPU blocks completely, and the CPU condensation is not even a thought unless I take the coolers water temperature down below 8c.

In my home environment relative to humidity levels, as long as the water in the cooler is above 8c there is no condensation problem at all, and that is 15c below my ambient room temperature.

Some seem to be missing that point so let me say it again.

In my home environment relative to humidity levels, as long as the water in the cooler is above 8c there is no condensation problem at all, and that is 15c below my ambient room temperature.

Now if you live in an area with high relative humidity levels, you may not be able to go as low as 8c unaffected by condensation, that's why I said testing your water temperature level versus condensation beginning to form is important, to establish for yourself as a know fact.

It will not be the same for everyone.

GTG Now! BBL Have a Great Day! Moto

 

[Motopsychojdn]

**It will not be the same for everyone. **

Something New overclockers and W/c'ers tend to gloss over in general,
I'm in the UK so relative humidity is pretty high most of the year hehe
but as you say, the design of a radbox pretty much eliminates the condensation issue,
I'm not up on the physics as much as I could be but I conjure it like this,
any condensation (If you don't control things and allow it to form in the first place) from the box cannot climb up the tubing,
and the tubing inside the rig can't get cold enough to condense due to the heat being put out by the system, (that and the airflow pushing water molecules out of the case)
but to a newcomer all they see is that xxx guy gets this overclock at those settings and these temps,
so why can't I???
and a lot don't even want to know about the variables involved, they just want the results
**Edit, seeya later mate, have a good one
Moto

 

[4Ryan6]

That's so true! Moto

 

[Motopsychojdn]

I've read the edit mate, its inspiring to see the difference laid out like that,
I just hope more people are inspired to follow and learn the path being set out here,
and push it further ofc hehe
Moto

 

[amuffin]

Is there anything I can do with a spare mini-fridge?

 

[4Ryan6]

Keep your drinks cool in your gaming room.

 

[4Ryan6]

I wanted to share my 580GTX water block adventure seems mid stream EVGA released a reference design with No IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader on the GPU Die), so I ended up with a 580GTX reference design with an IHS and the other without an IHS.

Once you pull the outer shroud off the card they both look identical until you remove the heat sink.

580 with the IHS.

580 with No IHS.

No IHS labeled water block.

Here's a view of the blocks stacked on top of each other the NoIHS block is not machined as deep in the GPU contact area.

I used Heatkiller Water Blocks.

Block Mounted front view.

Top View.

The Heatkiller water blocks are machined close enough to use regular TIM on the DDR5 Memory chips, instead of the included thermal pads, thicker thermal pads are included and must be used on the Voltage Regulators, pads are pre-cut and color coded.

Note: To remove the combination Memory/Voltage Regulator/Fan Mount Support Plate from the reference 580GTX requires a T7 Tork head screw driver, the rest of the screws on the card are Phillips head.

 

[4Ryan6]

Used a Bitspower swivel 90 to make some tight connections.

First mounting.

Mounting with Rad Box Setup.

 

[amuffin]

Ryan, you got a steam?