Feather Falling and Belayed companions

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:xN-dnbQymv9e8jzfRVn-tQ@comcast.com...

> Some things are beyond the requirement for proving. So I didn't bother.
> Sue me. Or, better yet, when you find a physics text, you can throw it at
> me(after you read the part that says I'm right, of course).

<raises hand> The relevant rules of physics have already been raised.
They prove *you* wrong (reaction force, unbalanced forces).

-Michael
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:u5Wdne0IC8em6jzfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> "Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
> news:qrj2a11i5aos5vhb0b3v3cj9oumkt69led@4ax.com...
> > No Jeff, I'm not kidding you. You really are a moron. See, that's part
of
> > the definition of the ground...there's GROUND there. It pushes back. Air
> > doesn't.
>
> Air doesn't push back... you heard it here folks.
> As an aside, you might not want to mention this to Chuck Yeager. He's
> pretty geeked about the whole "sound barrier" thing, so, you know, let's
> just keep this between us.
> > (Air *DOES* push back, just not as much as the ground does. It's called
air
> resistance.)

This is highly amusing, Jeffie. You *really* need to examine your
physics book at some point. "Air resistance" is only relevant to movement
of air. We are discussing *reaction forces* generated by a collision with a
*hovering* individual.

Does it at least make you a _little_ sad to know that every attempt on
your part to comment on physics results in nothing but your shame?

-Michael
 
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"Nikolas Landauer" <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in message
news:1117909215.faeba62c7c1e66060aafe7564891eb98@teranews...
> Ed Chauvin IV wrote:

> This is meant for after resolving the bull rush. The bull rush checks
> the flier's normal movement, and the flier cannot recover enough to
> move another direction or hover until their own turn. There is going
> to be some gap between the bull rush and the flier's turn. This is
> the span of time in which the flier falls.

Your logic has several flaws.
On the ground, this same logic suggests that bull rushing should knock
down the bull-rushee when they're on the ground, too, if being bull rushed
were so disruptive to one's decision to stand in place.
Further, precisely becuase rounds in fact overlap, there's no
particularly good reason to believe that the action we *resolved* (on the
flier's turn) where the flier chose to continue hovering didn't start
immediately after the bull rush.
On the ground, bull rushing someone forces them backwards while both
participants try to retain their footing (and not always with complete
success!). In the air, those who must work to hover would be in the same
situation - a "rushed" harpy would flap its wings and struggle to keep
control of its orientation and the like while simultaneously being propelled
across the field of battle.

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> >
> > This is meant for after resolving the bull rush. The bull
> > rush checks the flier's normal movement, and the flier
> > cannot recover enough to move another direction or hover
> > until their own turn. There is going to be some gap
> > between the bull rush and the flier's turn. This is
> > the span of time in which the flier falls.
>
> Your logic has several flaws.
<snip explanation>

Fair enough. I wasn't thinking it through clearly enough, and don't
have enough of a physics background to have known where I went wrong
before your post. Mea culpa.

The article you posted from the WotC site makes it moot, anyway, by
giving a recommendation for post-bull rush reaction of requiring a DC
20 Reflex save to prevent a stall, which sounds pretty good to me.

--
Nik, showing Jeff what intellectual honesty looks like.
- remove vermin from email address to reply.
 
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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:tbt3a111525rb1891635qikb1buta4cum4@4ax.com...
> >(Air *DOES* push back, just not as much as the ground does. It's called
air
> >resistance.)
>
> Does air support weight? No? Hmm...

Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons. But those examples are not relevant
to what we're talking about, and are *well* beyond Goslin.

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Here's a hunk of text from the WOTC websites on flying, grappling, bull
rushing, etc. Very comprehensive. I'm so proud!

This information has the virtue of humiliating Jeffie about his "forcing to
carry the dragon via bull rush or grappling" bullshit.
But that's not a surprise, really - the rules *always* humiliate Jeffie!

Stalling and Freefalling

Stalling represents the failure of a flying creature's wings (or other
motive agent) to keep the creature aloft. The rules are a little sketchy
when it comes to what happened during a stall, so here are some unofficial
suggestions.

A stalling creature falls, but it wings provide considerable drag and tend
to slow the creature's fall. As noted earlier, a creature falls 150 feet
during the first round spent stalling, and it falls 300 feet each round
thereafter. Wingless flyers that stall still have some residual lift and
fall more slowly than non-flyers.

A flying creature that cannot maintain its minimum forward speed because it
has been rendered unconscious, has become paralyzed, has become magically
held, or becomes unable to move for some other reason stalls at the
beginning of its first turn after the debilitating effect occurs.

A stalling creature can take no actions, except to recover from the stall.
It loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while stalling. As
noted earlier, recovering from a stall requires a Reflex save (DC 20).

A stalling creature falls more or less straight down, but it also tumbles
and spins erratically. Melee or ranged attacks made against a stalling
creature have a 20% miss chance.

A nonflyer (or flyer falling through the air) freefalls rather than stalls.
A creature in freefall drops 500 feet the first round and 1,000 feet each
round thereafter. While in freefall, a creature can attempt a single action
each round. It must make a Dexterity or Strength check (creature's choice,
DC 15) to avoid dropping any item it tries to use. Spellcasting is possible,
but doing so requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) and if the
spell has a material component, the creature must first check to see if it
drops the component.

Deliberately Freefalling: A flying creature can simply stop flying and allow
itself to drop like a stone. Exiting a freefall requires a full-round action
(during which the creature falls 500 or 1,000 feet). A creature with Perfect
maneuverability exits a freefall automatically, less maneuverable creatures
require a Reflex save (DC 20). If the check fails, the creature stalls (even
if it does not have a minimum forward speed), though during its next turn it
can attempt to recover from the stall after falling 300 feet.

A creature with average, poor, or clumsy maneuverability suffers 3d6 points
of nonlethal damage when it exits a freefall (or when it stalls from a
failed attempt to leave freefall) due to the stress on its body. A
freefalling creature with a fly speed can automatically recover from a
freefall if it receives a feather fall spell, but only after falling 60
feet; the creature suffers no damage from the recovery.

Fast Freefalls: A creature with a fly speed can propel itself downward as a
move action, adding up to twice its flying speed to the distance it
freefalls. A creature with Perfect maneuverability can make a fast freefall
automatically, while less maneuverable creatures require a Reflex save (DC
15). If the save fails, the creature stalls. On a successful check the
creature fast freefalls for a full round.

Catching: As a full-round action, a flyer can catch a freefalling creature
or object, or a stalling creature, provided that the falling creature or
object is at least one size category smaller than the creature attempting
the catch.

To make the catch, the creature must make a successful melee touch attack to
grab the falling creature or object (a creature can voluntarily forego any
Dexterity bonus to AC if desired). If the grab succeeds, the catching
creature must make a Reflex save (DC 25) to keep flying. If the save fails
by 4 or less, the catcher drops the falling creature or object. If the save
fails by 5 or more, the catcher drops the falling creature or object and
stalls if it has a minimum forward speed. If the catcher does not have a
minimum forward speed, it falls 1d4x10 feet.

Obstacles and Collisions

Because flying creatures cannot always change direction when they wish to,
they must take great care to avoid blundering into obstacles or into other
creatures.

Maneuvering PastObstacles: To turn and avoid an obstacle at its own
altitude, a flying creature must be able to turn in place. If it cannot turn
in place, it needs at least 5 feet of space between it and the obstacle if
it wishes to turn to avoid a collision (because in an aerial turn you move
into the square ahead of you and then turn left or right 45° ). It cannot
move diagonally past a corner in the air or on the ground, so any turn you
make must carry you past an obstacle's corner before you can fly past it.

If turning to avoid an obstacle isn't possible, it may be possible to climb
over or dive under the obstacle. A creature with maximum up or down angle of
45° needs at least 5 feet of clear space between it and an obstacle for
every 5 feet it must climb or dive to get over or under the obstacle (you
can't move past a corner on a diagonal, even when climbing or diving). A
creature with a maximum up or down angle of 60° needs at least 5 feet of
clear space between it and an obstacle for every 10 feet it must climb or
dive to get over or under the obstacle.

Maneuvering PastCreatures: Flying past another creature works much like
flying past an obstacle except that you can move on a diagonal to get past a
creature. This makes it slightly easier to pass by without colliding.

Colliding with an Obstacle: Here's another place where the rules don't help
much, so here are some more unofficial suggestions.

If you fly into an obstacle and you cannot land there, you must make a
Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid damage. If you fail the save, you and the
object you strike take damage as though an object of your weight fell a
distance equal to half your flying speed before you hit. (If it isn't clear
what your speed before the collision was, use your flying speed during your
previous turn.) If the object you hit has a hardness of 6 or less, you take
nonlethal damage (the object takes normal damage).

Your flying movement stops when you strike, forcing you to stall (even if
you don't have a minimum forward speed) and fall straight down. If you're
still conscious after the collision, you can make Climb check (DC =
surface's DC + 20) to catch yourself and keep from falling. If the surface
is sloped (see the Climb skill description), the Climb DC to catch yourself
is lower (DC = slope's DC + 10).

Colliding with a Creature: Here's another place where the rules don't help
much, so you can use these unofficial suggestions.

You can freely pass through your allies' spaces in the air just as you can
on the ground. If you fly into a creature that is not your ally, you
effectively attempt to overrun it. You can execute a bull rush against the
creature instead, if you wish. An overrun or bull rush normally requires a
standard action. If you accidentally enter an enemy's space you must make a
Reflex save (DC 15); if you fail, you stall (even if you don't have a
minimum forward speed). If you succeed, you can continue with your
accidental bull rush or overrun, but you suffer a -4 penalty to all the
opposed checks you make to resolve the bull rush or overrun.

As with an overrun attack, the creature can decide not to block your
movement, though this might cause the creature to stall (see the section on
overruns). If so, you simply move through its space (even if you decide to
bull rush the creature). You cannot stop in another creature's square,
however, and if your speed isn't sufficient to carry you through the other
creature's space, you must attempt an overrun or bull rush.

If the creature is too small to overrun, you must try to bull rush it
instead if you can't pass through its space.

If the creature is too big to overrun, you strike it just as if it were an
obstacle, and you and the creature take nonlethal damage. Both you and the
creature you strike make Reflex saves (DC 15) to avoid damage, but the
creature you strike gets a +4 bonus for each size category it is bigger than
you. You stall just as if you struck an obstacle. The creature you strike
stalls if it fails its Reflex save.

If you are at least three size categories smaller than the creature whose
space you are entering (or if you are Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine size) you
can enter the creature's space without colliding, bull rushing, or
overrunning, but entering the creature's space provokes an attack of
opportunity. Likewise, if you are at least three size categories smaller
than the creature whose space you are entering, you also can enter the
creature's space without colliding, bull rushing, or overrunning, but
entering the creature's space provokes an attack of opportunity.

Actions while Flying

Most actions work exactly the same way in the air as they do on the ground;
exceptions are noted here.

Full-Round Actions

A creature with a minimum forward speed usually cannot use full-round
actions in the air unless those actions allow it to move forward at least at
its minimum speed. For example, a harpy (average maneuverability) could
charge or run while flying, but it could not make a full attack or cast a
spell with a casting time longer than one action (but see the note on
casting time).

Cast a Spell

Flying spellcasters can cast their spells without too much difficulty;
however, aerial spellcasters often encounter some problems other
spellcasters do not.

Casting Time: Most spells require 1 standard action to cast. The creature
can move and then cast the spell, or cast the spell and then move.

A creature with a minimum forward speed cannot cast a spell with a casting
time of 1 round or more while airborne unless it is riding on a flying mount
or flying device.

A creature with minimum forward speed can cast spells with a casting time of
a full-round action (such as a sorcerer casting a spell modified with
metamagic) by first using a move action to travel forward and maintain its
minimum speed. The caster can then use a standard action to start the
full-round spell. The next round, the creature can finish the spell by using
another standard action, then use a move action to travel forward and
maintain its minimum speed.

Concentration: Spellcasters using natural flight or using a spells or magic
devices that empower them to fly personally, such as a fly spell or winged
boots, can cast spells while flying without Concentration checks (unless
other conditions they encounter while aloft require them). For casters using
mounts or magic devices that function like mounts, such as a carpet of
flying or a broom of flying, must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell
level) or lose the spell. A creature riding as a passenger on a mount or
magic device also must make Concentration checks to cast spells.
Particularly violent motion from the mount or device makes the Concentration
check more difficult (see the Concentration skill description in the
Player's Handbook).

Drop Prone

A creature cannot drop prone while flying. If a flying creature lands, it
can drop prone as a free action.

Run

A creature using natural flying speed can use the run action. As with any
other run action, the creature must move in a straight line. A flyer using
the run action cannot gain more than 5 feet of altitude, but it can lose any
amount of altitude, and it gains the normal bonus movement for the altitude
lost (5 feet per 5 feet descended, a maximum of twice its normal flying
speed.) For example, a harpy could use the run action to fly 320 feet in a
straight line. While doing so, it could not gain more than 5 feet of
altitude.

Take 5-Foot Step

A flying creature cannot use the 5-foot step rule unless it has perfect or
good maneuverability (and thus no minimum forward speed).

Withdraw

Flying creatures can use the withdraw action if they prove maneuverable
enough to do so without colliding with their opponents.

Flanking

The rules for flanking apply in the air. It is possible, however, to flank a
flying creature from the top and bottom.

Creatures in Aerial Combat

Aerial combat takes place in three dimensions, and each flying creature
occupies a roughly cubical space and can reach above and below itself, as
shown on the following table:

Flying Creature Size and Face

Size Space Natural
Reach
Fine 1/2 ft. across x 1/2 ft high 0 ft.
Diminutive 1 ft. across x 1 ft high 0 ft.
Tiny 2 1/2 ft. across x 2 1/2 ft. high 0 ft.
Small 5 ft. across x 5 ft. high 5 ft.
Medium 5 ft. across x 5 ft. high 5 ft.
Large (Long) 10 ft. across x 5 ft. high 5 ft.
Large (Tall) 10 ft. across x 5 ft. high 10 ft.
Huge (Long) 15 ft. across x 10 ft. high 10 ft.
Huge (Tall) 15 ft. across x 15 ft. high 15 ft.
Gargantuan (Long) 20 ft. across x 15 ft. high 15 ft.
Gargantuan (Tall) 20 ft. across x 20 ft. high 20 ft.
Colossal (Long) 30 ft. across x 25 ft. high 15 ft.
Colossal (Tall) 30 ft. across x 30 ft. high 25 ft.

Space: In the air, a creature's space includes length, width, and height.
Creatures more than 5 feet high occupy a vertical column of two or more
spaces, one space for each 5 feet of height.

Natural Reach: Natural reach is how far the creature can reach when it
fights. A creature flying on its own threatens the area within that distance
from itself, including above and below. A creature riding a mount or flying
device also threatens all the spaces around it, except those blocked by the
mount or device.

Tall Creature: A tall creature is a biped or similar creature. Creatures in
the D&D game are not designated as "tall" or "long"; however, you can
determine this for yourself easily by noting its reach entry. For example, a
Large creature with a reach entry of 10 feet is "tall" (unless it's using a
reach weapon).

Long Creature: A long creature is a quadruped or similar creature. Creatures
in the D&D game are not designated as "tall" or "long"; however, you can
easily determine this for yourself by noting its reach entry. For example, a
Large creature with a reach entry of 5 feet is "long."

Special Attacks in the Air

Flying creatures can try a variety of special tactics while in the air. In
general, these work just like similar attacks made on the ground. Exceptions
are listed below. The rules don't cover these situations in much detail, so
most of this section much consists of unofficial suggestions.

Bull Rush

An aerial bull rush requires the attacker to ram a foe, which can prove
risky for both the attacker and the defender.

Initiating and Resolving an Aerial Bull Rush: You begin in the same way as
bull rush on the ground.

To resolve an aerial bull rush, make opposed Strength checks or opposed
Dexterity checks (each creature involved chooses which to use). Apply
modifiers for each opponent's size as noted in the Player's Handbook, even
when using opposed Dexterity checks. No creature can claim a stability bonus
in an aerial bull rush.

Aerial Bull Rush Results: A creature that has been moved in an aerial bull
rush must make a Reflex save (DC 20) immediately or stall (even if it does
not have a minimum forward speed). If the attacker fails to move the
defender during an aerial bull rush, it moves back 5 feet, as noted in the
description of the bull rush action and must immediately make a Reflex save
(DC 20) or stall (even if it does not have a minimum forward speed).

Accidental Aerial Bull Rush: As noted in the section on collisions, you
suffer a -4 penalty on all opposed checks you make to resolve a collision
with a foe.

Charge

Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in
straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can
charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless
the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also
loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a
piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage.

Grapple

Aerial grappling can prove hazardous to attacker and defender alike. Except
where noted here, a grappling attack in the air works just like grappling on
the ground.

Who Is Flying and Who Is Held: If you have a minimum forward speed or if you
rely on wings or other appendages to stay aloft, you cannot fly if another
creature has a hold on you (but see Just Hanging On, below). An attacker
that establishes a hold against you must be able to carry your weight or you
both fall. In the course of an aerial grapple, the combatant who must hold
everyone's weight can change from turn to turn. The last creature to
establish a hold must be able to keep everyone involved in the grapple aloft
or everyone falls.

Grappling a Foe Two or More Sizes Smaller: If you establish a hold against
an airborne creature, your foe stalls if it has a minimum forward speed. You
can simply hold up the creature if it is two or more size categories smaller
than you (provided that the foe's weight, plus the weight of any gear you
carry, does not exceed your light load). Your flying movement remains
unhindered while you hold your foe. Each round, you can perform a move
action and also use a standard action to conduct the grapple against the
foe.

Grappling a Foe Not Two or More Sizes Smaller: You can try to fly and hold a
foe that is your size, one size category smaller, or one size category
bigger than you. To do so, you must make a successful opposed grapple check
against every foe involved in the grapple. The grapple check requires a
standard action, but the movement is part of that standard action. The
attacking flyer inflicts no grappling damage with a success. If the attacker
fails, it cannot move and stalls even if it does not have a minimum forward
speed, and it must release everyone in its grasp.

Even with a successful check, all the foes you hold counts as part of your
load (creatures can fly only of lightly loaded). If you're overloaded, you
must drop all foes or stall, even if you don't have a minimum forward speed.
If you choose to hang on, you stall and all foes in your grasp fall along
with you. You cannot recover from the stall until you shed your excess load.

Dropping a Foe: If you release another flyer from your hold during your
turn, it stalls if it has a minimum forward speed, otherwise, it resumes
normal flight. A nonflying creature that you drop freefalls. Any creature
you drop can try to hang on, but see Just Hanging On.

Escaping While Airborne: If you escape from a foe's grasp while airborne,
you can fly away in normal flight if you have a flying speed. (You are
assumed to escape at a moment that's convenient for you.)

Taking -20: An attacker with the improved grab ability can opt to conduct a
grapple with only part of its body. Doing so imposes a -20 on the attacker's
grapple checks, as noted in the Monster Manual. A flying grappler who takes
the -20 penalty need not use a standard action to continue moving, but it
can just fly along holding onto the foe. Even so, the held opponent counts
as part of the load the attacker carries.

Because the attacker is not using an action to make a grapple check, it does
not damage the creature it holds, establish a pin, or accomplish any other
effect that requires a successful grapple check. The foe still can attempt a
grapple check of its own during its own turn to escape.

Pin: While aloft you cannot pin a creature the same size as you or bigger
than you.

Just Hanging On: Some combatants might not appreciate being grappled and
dropped, especially if that means plummeting to earth afterward. If a
dropped creature is at least two size categories smaller than the creature
that dropped it, it can make a DC 20 climb check to avoid falling. If the
Climb check succeeds, the dropped creature holds on somehow, and neither the
creature that made the successful Climb check nor the creature to which it
clings are considered grappled. The clinging creature, however, must hold on
with at least one hand; it cannot use a shield, and loses its Dexterity
bonus (if any) to Armor Class. If damaged while clinging, the creature must
make a Climb check (DC 20) or fall.

If the larger creature moves during its action, the clinging creature moves
along with it. The larger can throw off the clinging creature with a grapple
(a standard action) opposed by the clinging creature's Climb check.

Overrun

A flying creature can plow past or over an opponent using an overrun attack.

Avoiding the Overrun: A flyer can avoid an aerial overrun just as a
landbound creature can. If the creature has a minimum forward speed, it must
make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid stalling after the sudden maneuver. If
the defender decides to avoid, you can move through its space whether it
stalls or not.

Blocking the Overrun: If the opponent decides to block, make opposed
Strength checks or opposed Dexterity checks (each creature involved chooses
which to use).Bonuses and penalties for size are the same as a normal
overrun no matter which kinds of checks the opponent's use. In addition,
each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows:
perfect +12, good +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Overrun Results: An aerial overrun generally has the same results as a
regular overrun, except that a creature knocked prone stalls instead (even
if it doesn't have a minimum forward speed). If an overrunning attacker wins
the opposed check, it can inflict unarmed strike damage on the defender
instead of making the defender stall. A creature with natural weaponry uses
the damage rating of one of its primary attacks as the unarmed strike
damage.

Trip

Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped.
Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't
rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The
defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check.
Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows:
perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the
tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking
the defender prone.

What's Next?

It's time to tackle some of the various miscellaneous topics regarding
movement next week!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4Mnoe.1949$W77.1661@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
> news:tbt3a111525rb1891635qikb1buta4cum4@4ax.com...
> > >(Air *DOES* push back, just not as much as the ground does. It's
called
> air
> > >resistance.)
> >
> > Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>
> Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons.

(and wings and jets!)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>>
>> Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons.
>
> (and wings and jets!)

(I was thinking parachutes, myself. And feathers. And airgels.
I wouldn't use jets as an example, since they're varied and kinda
complicated)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:22:48 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:4Mnoe.1949$W77.1661@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> "Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>> news:tbt3a111525rb1891635qikb1buta4cum4@4ax.com...
>> > >(Air *DOES* push back, just not as much as the ground does. It's
>called
>> air
>> > >resistance.)
>> >
>> > Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>>
>> Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons.
>
> (and wings and jets!)

Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet fall
down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:04:51 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>
>Here's a hunk of text from the WOTC websites on flying, grappling, bull
>rushing, etc. Very comprehensive. I'm so proud!

Beat you to it though.

Nya nya nya nya.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:31:38 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:22:48 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
><mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:
>> (and wings and jets!)
>
>Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet fall
>down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.

The jet has to keep moving, but it is the air that is pushing up on
the plane and keeping it aloft. The jets only push it along
horizontally (of course, they do that by propelling air behind them)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
news:tbt3a111525rb1891635qikb1buta4cum4@4ax.com:

> Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>

Er, yes it does. If the density of the object is lower than the
density of the air.

--
Marc
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:T9noe.892$HM.583@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> I have an inactive fly spell on myself all the time.
> <jumps>
> I never seem to hover, Jeffie.
>
>

That's because in Jeff's little mind, "Inactive spell" does not
mean an inactive spell.

--
Marc
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Suddenly, Michael Scott Brown, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the
darkness and exclaimed:

> Even with a successful check, all the foes you hold counts as part of
> your load (creatures can fly only of lightly loaded). If you're
> overloaded, you must drop all foes or stall, even if you don't have a
> minimum forward speed. If you choose to hang on, you stall and all
> foes in your grasp fall along with you. You cannot recover from the
> stall until you shed your excess load.
>
>

This passage here seems to answer the question of what happens when a
flying wizard get overloaded.

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it's us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:44:59 GMT, Chad Lubrecht <chad.lubrecht@verizon.net>
scribed into the ether:

>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:31:38 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:22:48 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
>><mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:
>>> (and wings and jets!)
>>
>>Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet fall
>>down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.
>
>The jet has to keep moving, but it is the air that is pushing up on
>the plane and keeping it aloft. The jets only push it along
>horizontally (of course, they do that by propelling air behind them)

It's the horizontal motion of the plane that creates the airflow that gives
the verticle lift that the plane requires to stay aloft. Airplane no move =
airplane hit ground.

http://www.aeromuseum.org/Education/Lessons/HowPlaneFly/HowPlaneFly.html
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:43:12 -0600, Kaos <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com>
scribed into the ether:

>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:40:55 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> dared speak in front of ME:
>
>>On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 05:39:55 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
>>scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>>>news:qrj2a11i5aos5vhb0b3v3cj9oumkt69led@4ax.com...
>>>> No Jeff, I'm not kidding you. You really are a moron. See, that's part of
>>>> the definition of the ground...there's GROUND there. It pushes back. Air
>>>> doesn't.
>>>
>>>Air doesn't push back... you heard it here folks.
>>>
>>>As an aside, you might not want to mention this to Chuck Yeager. He's
>>>pretty geeked about the whole "sound barrier" thing, so, you know, let's
>>>just keep this between us.
>>>
>>>(Air *DOES* push back, just not as much as the ground does. It's called air
>>>resistance.)
>>
>>Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>
>Bouyancy, same as water. Just at lower levels.

The weight of people.

Miss a couple of words, and people go all wonky.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:1b74a152ci4qcb82j7h69a9sp8u1jpru8d@4ax.com...
> >> Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons.
> >
> > (and wings and jets!)
>
> Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet
fall
> down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.

Tsk. Jets *of* air. Ever play air hockey?

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Billy Yank" <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote in message
news:Xns966BC04B587CEbillyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11...
> Suddenly, Michael Scott Brown, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the
> darkness and exclaimed:
>
> > Even with a successful check, all the foes you hold counts as part of
> > your load (creatures can fly only of lightly loaded). If you're
> > overloaded, you must drop all foes or stall, even if you don't have a
> > minimum forward speed. If you choose to hang on, you stall and all
> > foes in your grasp fall along with you. You cannot recover from the
> > stall until you shed your excess load.
>
> This passage here seems to answer the question of what happens when a
> flying wizard get overloaded.

Yup. Imagine that. It's like, what we've been telling Jeffie all this
time.

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Matt Frisch hastily scrawled:
>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:22:48 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
><mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:
>
>>"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:4Mnoe.1949$W77.1661@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> "Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>>> news:tbt3a111525rb1891635qikb1buta4cum4@4ax.com...
>>> > >(Air *DOES* push back, just not as much as the ground does. It's
>>called
>>> air
>>> > >resistance.)
>>> >
>>> > Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>>>
>>> Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons.
>>
>> (and wings and jets!)
>
>Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet fall
>down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.

Does not.


Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Matt Frisch hastily scrawled:
>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:44:59 GMT, Chad Lubrecht <chad.lubrecht@verizon.net>
>scribed into the ether:
>
>>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:31:38 GMT, Matt Frisch
>><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:22:48 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
>>><mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:
>>>> (and wings and jets!)
>>>
>>>Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet fall
>>>down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.
>>
>>The jet has to keep moving, but it is the air that is pushing up on
>>the plane and keeping it aloft. The jets only push it along
>>horizontally (of course, they do that by propelling air behind them)
>
>It's the horizontal motion of the plane that creates the airflow that gives
>the verticle lift that the plane requires to stay aloft. Airplane no move =
>airplane hit ground.
>
>http://www.aeromuseum.org/Education/Lessons/HowPlaneFly/HowPlaneFly.html

Learn to spell "vertical" and have someone explain to you how it is
the air that holds the plane aloft.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Marc L. hastily scrawled:
>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
>news:tbt3a111525rb1891635qikb1buta4cum4@4ax.com:
>
>> Does air support weight? No? Hmm...
>>
>
> Er, yes it does. If the density of the object is lower than the
>density of the air.

Um, yeah. But it's far more complicated than that.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:58:21 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:1b74a152ci4qcb82j7h69a9sp8u1jpru8d@4ax.com...
>> >> Tsk. Buoyancy and pneumatic pistons.
>> >
>> > (and wings and jets!)
>>
>> Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet
>fall
>> down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.
>
> Tsk. Jets *of* air. Ever play air hockey?

Ever play air hockey with the table unplugged?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
news:m8f4a1d6sb640aak20p4e2dbe8qfbi7k45@4ax.com:

> The weight of people.
>
>

Not the weight, the density. Sheesh.

--
Marc
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 03:22:08 GMT, "Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com>
scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in
>news:m8f4a1d6sb640aak20p4e2dbe8qfbi7k45@4ax.com:
>
>> The weight of people.
>>
>>
>
> Not the weight, the density. Sheesh.

Are you familiar with people made of helium?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 03:29:21 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news😛9r4a1htkagf92o212g9lq7vkac5snvv3g@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:58:21 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
>> >> Which is more than just air...if the jet doesn't move forward, the jet
>fall
>> >> down. Takes more than just "air" to keep it aloft.
>> >
>> > Tsk. Jets *of* air. Ever play air hockey?
>>
>> Ever play air hockey with the table unplugged?
>
> You are being very pathetic, with the desperate trying not to admit you
>were wrong thing.

I was wrong thing?

> Your initial argument was, in essence, jets *plus wings* hold things up.

Actually, it was "more than just air" holds things up.

>I pointed out that you were incorrectly understanding the breadth of the
>concept of the jet (a jet engine is called such because it creates a jet,
>after all). In fact, you're even wrong on that account; a jet with
>sufficient thrust will support weight without the use of a wing or forward
>motion (see Harrier or other VTOL vehicle, or the F-16's ability to
>accelerate straight up).

A harrier doing VTOL or any other plane going verticle is not being
supported by anything in the same way as a horizontal aircraft is. Going
straight up on engine thrust is akin to jumping...soon as the thrust cuts
out, the plane will fall. Horizontal movement is not quite so limited, else
gliders could not exist. Airflow over (and under) the wing *supports*.