GeneticWeapon
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levicki
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No.....dolt is what I meant to say.
It's not really a bad word or anything..
See what happens when you don't check your spelling? Someone may miss the meaning of your sentence. 😀
Lets get back on topic.
Many people claim that integrated audio is crap. I do not agree because it is generalization. Old AC97 codecs sucked but new ones such as Realtek ALC88x or Sigmatel STAC 9221D are really good and they come for free with latest mainboards.
dean7
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- Aug 15, 2006
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You're a dolt... not your a dolt. This kind of crap drives me nuts. Am I the only one???
Perhaps he meant to say:
That way his girlfriend could only agree if she checked it by having sex with you. :twisted:
Unfortunately for her I have standards! (OK, I shouldn't have made such a 3rd grader joke, but I couldn't help myself!)
No.....dolt is what I meant to say.
It's not really a bad word or anything..
Well, people wouldn't have to waste time trying to interpret what you are saying if you could effectively communicate! There's this thing called "adult high school" for people like you, and I think you should seriously look in to it. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just trying to help you out.
It's pretty good though. And it's pretty interesting reading stuff like this and drawing obvious connection to our current situation.
GeneticWeapon
Splendid
- Jan 13, 2003
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Meh...it's not nearly as bad as your making it out to be :lol:
You're simply attacking me because you didnt like what I was saying to Slava.
In this particular forum, knowledge on the subject(I believe) is the most important thing to possess, and while mine(or practically anybodies) elite spelling skillz arent at a proffessional level, I can guarantee you my knowledge on the subject of GPU architecture, the shader pipline, or valuable personal experience, far exceeds your own petty knowledge of the subject.
Not trying to be rude or anything :roll:
Feel free to pick out the spelling discrepancies in my post all you want, it will surely be the only contribution you are able to make here in the graphics section.
Interesting and useful discussion. On both the soundcard and educational/political issues.
The only exception is the juvenile gay-bashing and groundless accusation that OP is gay. Based on what? What does assumed "gayness" have to do with anything germane to the technical discussion? And, when you get down to cases, GW's posts on the issue of "manliness" and "gayness" raise serious questions about his issues. More to the point, resorting to this kind of ad-hominim (look it up) attack shows that the perpetrator has run out of any legitimate arguments or relevent points. It's sad that so much time was wasted on an irrelevancy.
WRT standalone sound cards vs on-board sound chips, an issue that has not been raised is the fact that, with very few exceptions, the on-board sound has about half the amplification capability of a stand-alone sound card. This may be less of an issue withthe fancier speaker systems, but it does make a big difference with the less expensive speakers.
As for the issue of overclocking vs getting a card, it is useful to keep the following in mind: overclocking = VOIDED WARRANTY. Also, the larger coolers required are significantly heavier than "stock" coolers, leading to physical strain on the motherboard. Which can lead to premature failure.
Water/liquid coolers remain a risky proposition: water and electricity are a poor mix. The tubing used in such systems does fail over time, and close attention to the condition of the tubing must be paid. Another aspect of such systems that is NEVER mentioned is condensation when relative humidity is high. Lots of water dripping off the tubes and other components. In my line of work, I use liquid cooliong systems, and on even reletively cool days when it is about to rain, the amount of condensation on the tubing is amazing. Enough to form small puddles on the benchtop under the tubes. If you don't think the same thing doesn't happen inside your case, you're dreaming. In Technicolor. Especially in places where high humidity is normal.
The cost difference between even a top-end sound card and fancy after-market coolers (especialy liquid systems) tends to favour the sound card. If you can get between 5% and 15% improvement in performance from a $70 (oem version) to $200 (full retail version) investment as opposed to lots more for OC requiring expensive coolers and warranty issues, why not add the sound card first? Who knows, this might be enough to make the diiference tou need.
On the issue of sound quality, I'll bet the majority of posters here who can't tell the difference between the two choices are under the age of 30. MP3s and mainly computers / MP3 players (or MP3 players with dubious quality "ear/head phones") being used for listening to music. Note that MP3 is a LOSSY compressoin algorithm. I'm considedrably older than 30 and for the bulk of my life audio reproduction has gone in one direction - increased quality. This means two things. First that my ears are trained to differentiate between good and poor quality sound. Second, that I am unwilling to accept poor quality sound. MP3s are useful things, but trust me, it is not that hard to tell the difference between an MP3 file and a true CD recording. And the MP3 loses EVERY time, especially for music I know.
Those who don't know any better due to inexperience should excercise restraint in their comments re sound quality between on-board and stand-alone sound systems. Especially if you haven't listened to your music on a good sound system with real speakers. You would be astonished at the difference a pair of speakers can make on the same system. Based on my experience, the Creative speakers are amazingly good, especially when one takes the price into account. The Creative speakers that were designed by (and manufactured to the specs of) Henry Kloss are gems of the first order. He designed and manufactured some of the finest audiophile speaker systems ever made. Look up Advent speakers for one example. Tests done by THG confirm that Creative manufactures speaker systems that rival many "audiophile" speaker systems selling for thousands a pair. And trash many of the Logitech systems mewntioned here.
The only exception is the juvenile gay-bashing and groundless accusation that OP is gay. Based on what? What does assumed "gayness" have to do with anything germane to the technical discussion? And, when you get down to cases, GW's posts on the issue of "manliness" and "gayness" raise serious questions about his issues. More to the point, resorting to this kind of ad-hominim (look it up) attack shows that the perpetrator has run out of any legitimate arguments or relevent points. It's sad that so much time was wasted on an irrelevancy.
WRT standalone sound cards vs on-board sound chips, an issue that has not been raised is the fact that, with very few exceptions, the on-board sound has about half the amplification capability of a stand-alone sound card. This may be less of an issue withthe fancier speaker systems, but it does make a big difference with the less expensive speakers.
As for the issue of overclocking vs getting a card, it is useful to keep the following in mind: overclocking = VOIDED WARRANTY. Also, the larger coolers required are significantly heavier than "stock" coolers, leading to physical strain on the motherboard. Which can lead to premature failure.
Water/liquid coolers remain a risky proposition: water and electricity are a poor mix. The tubing used in such systems does fail over time, and close attention to the condition of the tubing must be paid. Another aspect of such systems that is NEVER mentioned is condensation when relative humidity is high. Lots of water dripping off the tubes and other components. In my line of work, I use liquid cooliong systems, and on even reletively cool days when it is about to rain, the amount of condensation on the tubing is amazing. Enough to form small puddles on the benchtop under the tubes. If you don't think the same thing doesn't happen inside your case, you're dreaming. In Technicolor. Especially in places where high humidity is normal.
The cost difference between even a top-end sound card and fancy after-market coolers (especialy liquid systems) tends to favour the sound card. If you can get between 5% and 15% improvement in performance from a $70 (oem version) to $200 (full retail version) investment as opposed to lots more for OC requiring expensive coolers and warranty issues, why not add the sound card first? Who knows, this might be enough to make the diiference tou need.
On the issue of sound quality, I'll bet the majority of posters here who can't tell the difference between the two choices are under the age of 30. MP3s and mainly computers / MP3 players (or MP3 players with dubious quality "ear/head phones") being used for listening to music. Note that MP3 is a LOSSY compressoin algorithm. I'm considedrably older than 30 and for the bulk of my life audio reproduction has gone in one direction - increased quality. This means two things. First that my ears are trained to differentiate between good and poor quality sound. Second, that I am unwilling to accept poor quality sound. MP3s are useful things, but trust me, it is not that hard to tell the difference between an MP3 file and a true CD recording. And the MP3 loses EVERY time, especially for music I know.
Those who don't know any better due to inexperience should excercise restraint in their comments re sound quality between on-board and stand-alone sound systems. Especially if you haven't listened to your music on a good sound system with real speakers. You would be astonished at the difference a pair of speakers can make on the same system. Based on my experience, the Creative speakers are amazingly good, especially when one takes the price into account. The Creative speakers that were designed by (and manufactured to the specs of) Henry Kloss are gems of the first order. He designed and manufactured some of the finest audiophile speaker systems ever made. Look up Advent speakers for one example. Tests done by THG confirm that Creative manufactures speaker systems that rival many "audiophile" speaker systems selling for thousands a pair. And trash many of the Logitech systems mewntioned here.
JAYDEEJOHN
Champion
- Aug 23, 2006
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OK,heres my 2 sheckels worth...I bought a new rig in mid may,3700+ 250 gig hd yadda yadda,it had on board graphics on board sound and lil else.Went on all the forums and started reading and reading,got alot of ideas.Also bought a few games,which some would do well with my integrated graphics and some would limp along.I bought a new psu and a sound card sb2zs.I noticed immediately improvements on my sluggish games(Fable lost chapters for example)Didnt have fraps,but like has been said earlier,at low fps it was noticeable,which allowed me to use a lil more eye candy in Fable since it is an rpg and not a fps.Now I have a new 1900xt 512mb in my rig also with 5500z's and all is gooder heheh,anyhow it HAS made a major difference in this short time frame between upgrades and the point of this thread to me is well taken
4745454b
Retired Mod
- Apr 29, 2006
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Actually, I should be able to tell the difference between good and bad sound even though I am under 30. As a young lad my mother played many RECORDS of classical music. I would lay down and take a nap, or play quietly, while my mother played Handel's "Messiah" or some other such piece. The reason I can't is due to my health. As a child I came down with ear infections, I'd even get them in the summer time. Between the ages of 2-10 I'd get at least 4 every year, with either one or two in the summer. Things have been better, I haven't had an infection in about 5 years now but the damage has been done. My right ear is now all but deaf, I can't use that ear on the phone at all as I won't hear what the other person is saying. My left ear is about the only one that works which is why you'd be looking at it if we are talking. (no joke.) Perhaps I'm not the best person to talk about what sounds good, but for me thats just about anything...
levicki
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Interesting. What kind of HW support do they have for gaming? What do you mean by and how do you define "really good"?
They have some basic EAX support if I remember correctly.
Really good = SNR and frequency range comparable to Creative cards.
You have a test on THG where they compared sound solutions on 975 mainboards. Of course Gigabyte with integrated Audigy 2 chip was the best of them but the others were not bad either with Intel Bad Axe board (STAC 9221D) sticking out from the crowd.
hergieburbur
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- Dec 19, 2005
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Right you are, friend. The very purpose of this society could be described like this: "Train narrow-minded, highly specialized, obedient and materialistic workforce, brainwash it with commercials to stimulate consumerism and they will never rebel - even if they realize that democracy is failing - because they have no time or ability to think about anything except ways of making more $$ to be able to afford that carzilla of an SUV."
Bacon cheeseburgers for everyone! Hurray!
P.S. Fortunately, some people manage to resist brainwashing and escape the grasp of the sad reality they are forced to live in. So to all of you who think and feel - I salute you.
You forgot that our own government also works to perpetuate drug use in the lower classes to aid in acheiving the above goals. We take over afghanistan and their Opium production goes UP!. Woohoo!
Edit: PLEASE don't get me started on anything more than that.
For the record, I have been reasonably pleased with my Realtek onboard, but then, my speakers are cheaper Altec Lansing 5.1s, and I do get feedback on them (probably due to the onboard). I will eventually buy a decent Sound Card, but at them moment, its just not worth it for me.
mitch074
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- Mar 17, 2006
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"really good" for ALC88x codecs would mean, that the signal-to-noise ratio is almost as low, if not lower than that of a dedicated sound card; I found a test once (I can't remember the site) where they compared the results of a SB Live! and an ALC882 codec (I think); they found out that while the CPU load of the Live! was lower than the ALC882's, the signal-to-noise of the latter was actually LOWER (meaning, less background noise) than the Live's - meaning purer sound.
This family of codecs is actually sweet on your CPU: it does have a few hardware acceleration features. Personally I have one, and eventhough I'm quite sensitive to signal distorsion and high frequencies, I must say that the quality of the sound delivered is very satisfying.
This family of codecs is actually sweet on your CPU: it does have a few hardware acceleration features. Personally I have one, and eventhough I'm quite sensitive to signal distorsion and high frequencies, I must say that the quality of the sound delivered is very satisfying.
One of the reasons I bought an Audigy 2 ZS was due to reading reviews that demonstrated FPS benchmark differences with various soundcards or onboard sound. This can be misleading though as the benches are more dramatic in low res (800x600).
2ZS benches: http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/6/
X-fi benches: http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/246/13/
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi.html
Of course performance benefits become negligible when your in high resolutions as the GPU does most of the processing at high res vs the CPU. Even top notch CPUs run almost neck and neck with budget CPUs at 1600x1200, thats why CPU benches are usually done with the lowest res 640x480 where the differences are quite apparent.
So due to this, the CPU utilization of onboard sound vs high performance sound cards becomes almost irrelevant at high res.
2ZS benches: http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/6/
X-fi benches: http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/246/13/
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi.html
Of course performance benefits become negligible when your in high resolutions as the GPU does most of the processing at high res vs the CPU. Even top notch CPUs run almost neck and neck with budget CPUs at 1600x1200, thats why CPU benches are usually done with the lowest res 640x480 where the differences are quite apparent.
So due to this, the CPU utilization of onboard sound vs high performance sound cards becomes almost irrelevant at high res.
dean7
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Good post, Wizard. But, I'm under 30 and I can't even listen to MP3s these days. I've migrated over to FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec), and it's great (plus it's open-source so I know that no matter what happens I can always compile my own decoding software). One of the other reasons I like FLAC is that it takes less CPU to decode it than other audio codecs. Check it out: http://flac.sourceforge.net/.
Interesting... so once again, it appears as though Creative SB series is good for gaming, but not the best for all applications.
JonathanDeane
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- Mar 28, 2006
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I agree with the compression thing but as long as it compresses a little everything should be ok. Even cheesy machines come with 200GB HD's these days (not including laptops mine only came with a 40GB HD) I like the sound of FLAC though, and I wish more people would use it
mitch074
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Let's say FLAC is for those that used to compress songs using 320 kbps for music, and for those that want to make a backup of their music without using too much space for it.
Higher compression ratios get interesting for mobile devices, where storage room is much more limited - there, VBR mp3 and Vorbis rule.
Personally I use:
-FLAC for CD backups (the fact that it's streamable is a plus)
-Vorbis for music I listen everywhere
-Lame MP3 in variable bitrate for those devices that don't support Vorbis.
I found WMA to be an assault on my ears due to distorsions, harmonics and bad high range frequencies.
Higher compression ratios get interesting for mobile devices, where storage room is much more limited - there, VBR mp3 and Vorbis rule.
Personally I use:
-FLAC for CD backups (the fact that it's streamable is a plus)
-Vorbis for music I listen everywhere
-Lame MP3 in variable bitrate for those devices that don't support Vorbis.
I found WMA to be an assault on my ears due to distorsions, harmonics and bad high range frequencies.
GeneticWeapon
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Some people take it for granted that they have the mental aptitude to start a thread in the right forum section, unfortunately, this gift isnt bestowed apon everyone.
There are obvious rules and guidelines given here, and they arent very hard to figure out.
You wouldnt start a thread about sound cards in the cpu section, and just the same you shouldnt start one in the graphics card section. Though it could be arued by the fool-heartedly, that because it is relevant to framerates, that it could go in any one of the above sections....... :roll: wrong.
Lets all post in the right spots, and have a great day 😀
There are obvious rules and guidelines given here, and they arent very hard to figure out.
You wouldnt start a thread about sound cards in the cpu section, and just the same you shouldnt start one in the graphics card section. Though it could be arued by the fool-heartedly, that because it is relevant to framerates, that it could go in any one of the above sections....... :roll: wrong.
Lets all post in the right spots, and have a great day 😀
GeneticWeapon
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This thread got moved to the sound card section (where it should be regardless of the reason for it being in the video card section) and I couldnt find it for a while lol!
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