Gartner: Windows 8 is a Necessary Risk for Microsoft

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[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]Just don't see your points guys, the UI is still the same, just a start screen instead of a start menu.[/citation]
It's not quite the same. The new navigation system requires more work than the old, and what's much much much worse is that the new apps do not support multimonitor systems. They'll stay on the primary monitor forever - or until a service pack or third party product changes it.
I'm a windows 8 user, and I'm using multiple monitors. As a result of the mess I've had to install a custom start menu and adobe's pdf reader.

Windows 8 does have some cool new advantages like the monitor going in standby shortly after locking the system and such, but overall it's an unnessecary piece of software from a desktop user standpoint, and counterproductive from an it consultants point of view.

With that said, I've talked my boss into giving me a lumia with windows 8, because my windows phone 7 is just awesome.
 
"People are not questioning it, they don't like it. Period."

Being as it hasn't even been released yet, I think you're a little biased to be making such blanket statements so early on.
More like "you" don't like it, right?
We're still doing XP to Win 7 upgrades too and Win 8 is way down the road corporate wise, that doesn't mean the corporate world will pass on it though by any means. It's just timing.
BYOD is a different matter though, it's a non starter here right now, security is paramount in some businesses.
 
As diverse as their release version count can be, there is absolutely NO reason Windows 8 couldn't have been the progression of Windows 7 and Windows mobile and tablet edition stand on their own leg. It's not a necessary risk, it just isn't because Windows 8 is not a desktop OS. How about Apple copy the idea and take their iOS 6 from their iPhone and iPad and that becomes the new Mac OS version XI. It just doesn't sit well for the intended purpose and is out of place - period.
 
If Microsoft can partner with a display maker and get me a 1920x1200 or better display that is at least 24". On a stand that offers tilt, pivot, swivel and height adjustments. Which is also multi-touch with single pixel accuracy and ability to use a stylus for under $500.

Then I will jump all over Windows 8 on my desktop computer. Otherwise I'll stick with 7. I wouldn't mind a Windows 8 smartphone or Tablet. But if I have to pay iPad prices I'll get an iPad since it has such a vast array of apps. The metro apps will be few and far between while the desktop apps are not designed for touch.
 
[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]JDesktops will go gesture, with kinect, not touch btw.[/citation]

How does this work if you're say eating or picking your nose while watching something on YouTube? Do you have to keep really still? Or is the gesture recognition limited to one area, say where a mousepad is now? Either way, gesture recognition on PCs seems like a solution to a problem no one is having.
 
"the new apps do not support multimonitor systems. They'll stay on the primary monitor forever - or until a service pack or third party product changes it."

It's still also very early in the app development timeline, I'd venture it's just that these early apps don't support multi monitor, not that the UI doesn't support them.

I don't think it's really time to be making these kind of calls, before release and all, let's see where it stands in the springtime, after Dec 21 has come and gone :)
 
[citation][nom]back_by_demand[/nom]Very astute analysis, necessary is the keyword here, they could continue with a desktop-only UI and eventually slide into obscurity in years to come as leaving it any longer to get into the game would be too much of a mountain to climb...So whilst they are still cash rich and relevant take a risk, potentially alienating a few people, then win them back with an excellent Windows 9...Anyone that doesn't want to use Windows 8 doesn't have to, hell I know people that won't upgrade from XP to 7, but when the killer version Windows 9 arrives all will be forgiven from the rabid fanbois[/citation]
Lol, yeah, no.
 
[citation][nom]killerclick[/nom]How does this work if you're say eating or picking your nose while watching something on YouTube? Do you have to keep really still? Or is the gesture recognition limited to one area, say where a mousepad is now? Either way, gesture recognition on PCs seems like a solution to a problem no one is having.[/citation]

Some very easy solutions to this type of stuff, gesture to turn off most gestures, special gesture to turn it back on for instance.

Mice are the problem, they're archaic, hard on the hand over long periods, error prone and very limited in possibilities.

Lots of my users never can get the hang of them, moving while clicking, double clicking when they shouldn't, mixing up left and right etc.

My dear old dad has real trouble steering the thing to the right location and keeping it there till the click.

Natural UI has so much more obvious potential, just think of the possibilities for a minute.
 
Why didn’t they just give you the option to turn off the damn new interface? It seems like it’s largely slapped on top of the old one to begin with. I know they recently went out of their way to remove some of the old code but still... they talk about necessary risk, they could greatly reduce the risk by giving you the option to go back to the old interface on a desktop. Risk eliminated...It seems like someone at Microsoft is so sure they are right that they need to be fired.
 
Been using win8 revisions sense the Release Preview almost a year ago. I remember RP being absolutely unusable on my desktop, but it was really awesome on my touch screen netbook (after I figured out the trick to get the resolution set right to get Metro to play nice). Now with Win8RTM I use it on both netbooks, my PC, and my wife's PC. Oddly my wife likes it even better than I do because of the integrated social networking stuff like chat and social hubs that aggregate info from different social networks. But the point is that the latest version is not 'broken' for keys and mice anymore. All the old keyboard shortcuts work exactly like they do in previous windows versions (admittedly the screen displays things different, but the functions work as well or better in win8).
My only complaint is in the metro interface using a mouse when you need to rt. click something, and then have to go to the bottom of the screen to make your context menu selection. I find it ironic that when you rt click something on the left 'app switcher' that you get a handy context menu, so why not add that for all of metro for mouse users? Still, one annoyance is not a deal breaker for me. Also, I am very interested to see how upcoming peripherals work with win8, specifically kinnect for PC (non Dev kit), and leap motion, but there are other ones coming out as well which could make for a much better 'touch' or motion/gesture control for win8 without the annoyance of actually touching a larger monitor (because really... touch is no longer fun when you get something larger than a 15" screen).

In general, win8 runs faster on the netbooks, and makes better use of the hardware on the desktops, adds back power user settings that have been missing since win2K, is fully backwards compatible with winXP/Vista/7 programs while adding a new ecosystem of 'apps' which at the moment are admittedly useless but hold some potential, and there is the promise of better inter-operability with WP8 and tablet devices (granted, this is yet to be seen). Lastly, and in some ways more importantly, it networks so much better on my home network than win7 ever did, which means that I can remove the HDD from my wife's machine, and have all pics/movies/backups on a central RAID5 on my machine or a dedicated home server. I know win7 was supposed to do this... but I never quite got it to work right with all PCs at the same time.

Not saying it is for everyone, as I don't exactly see this as a big step forward for business workflows; but for home users? Man, it just works! I rarely check my social networking sites any longer as it is all built into the OS. I like that when I log into win8 I am greeted with the weather, status updates for my friends, how many email messages I have, and how many chat messages I have. It is just all right there. I also like that when I log into a different machine that the bulk of my settings travel over so that I do not have to change each individual machine anymore. I wish apps and the start menu layout would do this as well, but I kinda understand why it does not.

Anywho, that is my 2 cents. In general it is a big step forward, and what few things are less convenient for the mouse is made up for with all of the other interactions that are going to be opened up by new controls. It takes very little away, while opening things up for future interaction innovations. And I think that is a breath of fresh air in an ecosystem that has been quite stagnant.
 
[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]Some very easy solutions to this type of stuff, gesture to turn off most gestures, special gesture to turn it back on for instance.[/citation]

That seems like more of a workaround, what if you're working and have to scratch your nose or pick up the phone, or something, if you smoke, chew your fingernails, do you have to do this special gesture twice? Face it, it's never going to happen. It looks cool in movies, but so does having things explode behind you.

Besides, seeing how speech recognition is absolutely useless for anything practical, I don't see them making gesture recognition useful for anything other than very physical games.


[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]Mice are the problem, they're archaic[/citation]

Archaic? What, does everything have to be new/innovative as a matter of course? A wheel is archaic, but it's not getting replaced any time soon.


[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]hard on the hand over long periods[/citation]

While waving your arms around for hours is an ergonomic utopia...


[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom], error prone and very limited in possibilities[/citation]

There's currently nothing better and more usable than a mouse, either in production or as a concept. A finger can never be as precise as a mouse (seeing how it's all squishy and irregular, and covers your field of view), and gesture control further attenuates this to a point where it can recognize only broad gestures - pretty useless when you have to hit something a few pixels wide.


[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]Lots of my users never can get the hang of them, moving while clicking, double clicking when they shouldn't, mixing up left and right etc.My dear old dad has real trouble steering the thing to the right location and keeping it there till the click.Natural UI has so much more obvious potential, just think of the possibilities for a minute.[/citation]

For simple stuff, sure, but that's like saying since disabled people have to use wheelchairs, we should all embrace wheelchairs as the new, most innovative way of moving around. There's a limit to how much you can simplify something before it becomes less useful, and trying to replace the mouse with something simpler on behalf of disabled, clumsy or stupid users is crossing that line.
 
[citation][nom]cryptz[/nom]Why didn’t they just give you the option to turn off the damn new interface?[/citation]
Because they make money when you download "Metro" apps. They want that right there, in your face, all the time.

"Don't you want to buy an app for your favorite football team? Only $5.99!"

"Just a few bucks for this! Just a few bucks for that! But don't worry, if you try to 'sideload' it onto your machine, we have the access to go in and disable it. Heck, we can go in and disable any Windows-8-style app, even if it is something you created, or that someone is giving away for free. It's gotta come through us, we gotta keep a record of it, gotta know who is downloading what software."
 
Mice are the problem, they're archaic, hard on the hand over long periods, error prone and very limited in possibilities.
Click to expand...

I must be missing something. I'm dead-accurate with a mouse and it's easy to rest my hand on it for many hours at a time.

However, wouldn't my shoulders, arms, wrists and hands get tired from holding them up and dragging them around my monitor, even for a few minutes?

What about blocking the screen? My hand/arm blocks way more of my 24" LCD than the mouse pointer. That seems like it could get annoying in apps and games, at least as they're designed now.

Finally, wondering about the ergonomic injuries this could bring (like keyboards and Carpal Tunnel).

I have no experience with desktop touch-screens and am genuinely curious, as this all seems counterintuitive to me. Thanks!
 


It's not a correct comparison, it's more a rifle compared to a bow, it's an order of magnitude more advanced.
You're probably thinking of the gaming kinect technology, not allowing for the potential with better sensor tech.

There are laser sensors currently in industry that are hundreths of a millimeter accuracte, this is the type of tech headed our way.
 
[citation][nom]killerclick[/nom]gesture recognition on PCs seems like a solution to a problem no one is having.[/citation]

DING DING DING! We have a winner! For over 100 years cars have had steering wheels and pedals. I don't see car companies trying to change the car user interface just "because." There is no good reason to change the desktop interface at all. I haven't seen any touch or gesture interface when I can effectively type a 40 page brief or when gaming, I have yet to find any interface that is as clean as a keyboard and mouse set-up. I don't want to be waving my hands all over the place blocking my view, or have to touch all over my screen (also blocking my view) and get finger prints all over.

Point is, sometimes things are the way they are because they work efficiently and cleanly. We don't need to change things for the sake of changing things. If they come up with some device that can perfectly read my thoughts and have split second response times that allow me to create large documents, do research for work, plus play games and manipulate everything on the screen faster and more efficiently than I can now...I'm all for it. We aren't there yet and the current desktop interface is still the best for many, many purposes that aren't "mobile."
 
[citation][nom]Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer[/nom]Because they make money when you download "Metro" apps. They want that right there, in your face, all the time."Don't you want to buy an app for your favorite football team? Only $5.99!""Just a few bucks for this! Just a few bucks for that! But don't worry, if you try to 'sideload' it onto your machine, we have the access to go in and disable it. Heck, we can go in and disable any Windows-8-style app, even if it is something you created, or that someone is giving away for free. It's gotta come through us, we gotta keep a record of it, gotta know who is downloading what software."[/citation]
Press Windows key - Classic interface
Press Windows+E - File system
Install any programs you want as normal
Microsoft are not forcing you or anyone else to use Metro
...
Anyone that that thinks "forcing you" to use Metro, means you don't know how to press the Windows key, is the same kind of person that would starve to death if they put your dinner money in your back pocket
 
I get what they were trying to do, but they did it wrong. They could have permitted Metro apps to run on Windows - in a window - and delivered slick interoperability without ruining the desktop experience. They could have integrated live tiles onto the desktop itself as icon and taskbar replacements. They could have adopted the new solid-color UI style in a way that doesn't end up leaving you confused about where one window element ends and another begins.

Could have, but didn't. Windows 8 is going to flop on the desktop. Maybe they'll get it right with Windows 9.
 
[citation][nom]back_by_demand[/nom]Microsoft are not forcing you or anyone else to use Metro.[/citation]
Really ?? Why cant I boot straight to the desktop then??
 
[citation][nom]back_by_demand[/nom]Press Windows key - Classic interfacePress Windows+E - File systemInstall any programs you want as normalMicrosoft are not forcing you or anyone else to use Metro...Anyone that that thinks "forcing you" to use Metro, means you don't know how to press the Windows key, is the same kind of person that would starve to death if they put your dinner money in your back pocket[/citation]
Dude, I've used Windows 8. I know what keys to press to get to the desktop. I know that hitting the Windows key and typing will find your program on the start screen just the same as hitting the Windows key and typing will find your program in the start menu. I know it's an article of faith amongst the Windows 8 shills/plants/blind fans that "If you don't want Windows 8 you've never used it or you haven't used it enough."

When you start Windows, you're in Metro. It's right f--king there. Of course you can hit Windows-D. Of course you can pin desktop applications to the desktop task bar. But you're still going to be in Metro to do some things on your computer. And that's because Microsoft wants to suck you in, wants you to buy their damned apps, wants you to line their coffers.

All the keyboard shortcuts in the world aren't going to change any of that. But either you're a plant or a shill, and you know that, and are being disingenuous, or you're a blind fan who can't see reality for what it is.

Eventually, it won't matter if you can use the desktop, because all of your programs are going to be acquired through Microsoft's curated store, anyway. And Microsoft can say "It's not like we abandoned desktop developers, they all moved over to 'Metro'. And that's 'cause users wanted them to be 'Metro' apps. So really, it's tyranny of the majority, not us." Never mind that Microsoft tilted the board towards that inevitable conclusion from day one.
 
[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]It could just ignore those movements, it would be an intelligent controller after all... Speech is a totally different issue, talking to inanimate objects is unnatural, mostly.[/citation]

Seeing how they can't even get speech recognition right (microphones are a century old technology unlike motion sensors), I don't think they can pull off useful gesture recognition precise enough for productivity applications.


[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]There is no waving necessary, your hands would be at the their natural neutral position, sitting on your lap behind the keyboard.[/citation]

Oh, well that's different, this will take off when we get wearable displays, and might just work on existing form factors.


[citation][nom]Zetto[/nom]There are laser sensors currently in industry that are hundreths of a millimeter accuracte, this is the type of tech headed our way.[/citation]

I'm sure there are advanced sensors but I'm not sure programmers can make gesture recognition that precise and "intelligent". There has to be absolutely no room for error or misinterpretation, otherwise it'll just be a novelty feature that no one sticks with like speech recognition.
 
thumb me down all you want, you still cant boot straight to the desktop without hacking the os. please prove me wrong. No short-cuts, no altered code, just straight to the desktop. Ya can't.
 
Regardless of tin foil hat oppinions. The facts are this; MS is not forcing you to use W8, MS is not forcing you to purchase apps in W8, and MS is not forcing you to not use the desktop in W8.

You people kill me with this shit. Its a god damn Start screen with the option to use/purchse apps from. Which im sure most of you do this anyways with your phones? Oh noes desktop apps that I dont need to purchase or use free cause I have the old option of the *gasp* desktop.
 
[citation][nom]Northwestern[/nom]It's understandable for Microsoft to enter the tablet market with a touch-friendly OS, but also using that very same OS in desktop environments? I can't bash too much on Windows 8 as I have not tried it but I don't need to test it in order to see the problems when you try to combine a physical mouse and keyboard with a tablet-oriented GUI.[/citation]
If you take the time to actually learn it....unlike most posting here....it does in fact work very well. Sure, it's focused on touch-based devices, but the keyboard and mouse work just as well.
 
[citation][nom]Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer[/nom]Dude, I've used Windows 8. I know what keys to press to get to the desktop. I know that hitting the Windows key and typing will find your program on the start screen just the same as hitting the Windows key and typing will find your program in the start menu. I know it's an article of faith amongst the Windows 8 shills/plants/blind fans that "If you don't want Windows 8 you've never used it or you haven't used it enough."When you start Windows, you're in Metro. It's right f--king there. Of course you can hit Windows-D. Of course you can pin desktop applications to the desktop task bar. But you're still going to be in Metro to do some things on your computer. And that's because Microsoft wants to suck you in, wants you to buy their damned apps, wants you to line their coffers.All the keyboard shortcuts in the world aren't going to change any of that. But either you're a plant or a shill, and you know that, and are being disingenuous, or you're a blind fan who can't see reality for what it is.Eventually, it won't matter if you can use the desktop, because all of your programs are going to be acquired through Microsoft's curated store, anyway. And Microsoft can say "It's not like we abandoned desktop developers, they all moved over to 'Metro'. And that's 'cause users wanted them to be 'Metro' apps. So really, it's tyranny of the majority, not us." Never mind that Microsoft tilted the board towards that inevitable conclusion from day one.[/citation]

This^. +a gazillion.
 
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