Hacking The HP EX470/475 MediaSmart Servers

[pile]

*1640

 

[etittel]

Dear Pile:
I'm still trying to find a 35W 3800+ so I can try it out, and AMD sent me the LE-1660 too late to include in the article (showed up the day I submitted it wouldn't you know?). If I get the chance to benchmark the 3800+ I'll throw the LE-1660 and post those results, too.
Thanks for the feedback. FWIW, I kept my BE-2350 in the box because I do some codec stuff for streaming video. It's definitely snappier when doing both network IO and other processing when you've got multiple cores at work. Unfortunately, the benchmarks don't show that very well.
--Ed--

 

[FrustratedRhino]

"Fair use doctrine permits owners of recorded materials to make archival copies for their own use" Incorrect, it does not in the case of the DMCA. Please read up on your subject matter before commenting.

http://www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php?content_selector=piracy_online_the_law

"I don't know for sure about us laws, but there is no international law that prohibits you from breaking copy protection or making a backup of an aquired piece of software"
http://www.mpaa.org/piracy_IntLaw.asp

Again please do not advocate breaking the law, it is bad for a business.

 

[etittel]

Dear FR:

I'm sorry but fair use does permit ripping of copyrighted material as long as it's neither sold nor given to any third parties, and no copyright protection is broken or otherwise infringed. Because AnyDVD can (and does, I use this feature myself) rip HDCP material to hard disk, no infringement of the DMCA is involved thereby.

See this discussion to back up my counterexample from the Citizen Media Law Project. Please note that infringement hinges solely on whether or not DRM was broken, removed, or otherwise altered, not on the copying of the materials.

And really, nowhere did I advocate being a scofflaw in my post. I was careful to point out that preserving DRM was required to remain on the right side of the law.

I have read up on my subject matter, and I just did again. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but only lawyers can usually formulate correct (or at least, defensible) legal opinions. I'm no lawyer, which is why I lean on more learned opinions from others.

Care to cite some counterexamples from those more entitled to have legal opinions than myself, and (I'm presuming) yourself? Do feel free!

--Ed--

 

[etittel]

Dear FR:

As legal gray areas go, this issue (fair use of copyrighted digital material) really comes down to the letter of the law, and the precedents that the courts set when ruling on such matters. From everything I can find, both the US Congress and the courts have done their best to steer clear of this subject and to leave this gray area as gray as can be. Best discussion I can find on this topic is on AVS forums (one of my favorite resources for all things related to digital entertainment and media), in the 9/15/08 posting by member chefklc. Check it out at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1065525.

Let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. I do rip my DVDs and Blu-rays to hard disk for the convenience and improved performance that delivers but otherwise leave them alone. That's my personal compromise with the law. I don't intend to change my behavior until legislation or court rulings make it clear that this behavior is illegal (which is not clear at the moment). If and when such events occur, I will then take appropriate action.

Thanks for bringing up a stimulating topic for conversation, though!

--Ed--

 

[etittel]

A note to all readers:
An eagle-eyed reader/friend just pointed me back at Newegg, where as of today you can buy a 1 TB Hitachi drive for $88 plus S&H (Seagate 7200.11 and Samsung SpinPoint 1 TB for $100). Doesn't matter what kind of box you put it in, that's one HECK of a deal. See the Internal Drives 1TB+ page.

Zounds!
--Ed--

 

[mxmaster]

etittel "Also, if you read the benchmarks carefully, you'll see that the CPU upgrade really is discretionary (or more bluntly, unnecessary) so that the real price bump is $100."

I noticed that: "IMHO, placing 2 GB of Ram and 1.5T of hd space in a EX470 one already has, is a good idea."

I have to agree with you: Sometimes you know you are doing something which you know won't save you a lot of $$. You are just doing it for the fun, the challenge or the knowledge you know you will obtain by doing it.

On the other hand: It's the "with bargain prices like those for refurb units readily available" sentence that struck me. I don't see the bargain, that's all. I would prefer to get a new unit with full warranty (and the MAC backup option, thanks for pointing that one out ) rather then investing $480,- in total in a refurbished unit with less or no warranty.

I have to compliment you for the way you wrote the article, though. You wrote a very specific "how-to" in a style that makes the job do-able for even the less experienced user. Thumbs up for that! Now if you write another one of those on a "how do I buy parts & build my own el cheapo streaming media/backup server for $300,- for dummies" subject, you will probably find me posting nothing but positive comments on your article.

 

[mxmaster]

Update: Am I wrong or is the EX485 for sale for just $549,99 on newegg?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16859105420&nm_mc=OTC-mys1mo17&cm_mmc=OTC-mys1mo17-_-Server+-+Systems-_-Hewlett-Packard-_-59105420

 

[FrustratedRhino]

"Because AnyDVD can (and does, I use this feature myself) rip HDCP material to hard disk, no infringement of the DMCA is involved thereby."

Let's try this again.

AnyDVD does not Retain the Copy Protection. It removes it... then Reapplies it.

That is how the feature works, just like RealDVD did. Also RealDVD (which as I just stated) had the same method, was forced by a federal judge to stop selling their product.

"Let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that." So you want a conversation as long as it conforms to your views only. When your views are proven wrong you hide behind "agreeing to disagree".

"From everything I can find, both the US Congress and the courts have done their best to steer clear of this subject and to leave this gray area as gray as can be." I wonder if you actually looked at any legislation or just make things up as you go. Obama SPECIFICALLY stated he wants this area more clear. Congress also agrees with him and has been waiting until the economic crisis is over to confront less pressing matters (like you "NEEDING" your DVDs to be copied).

Also I agree with mxmaster "Now if you write another one of those on a "how do I buy parts & build my own el cheapo streaming media/backup server for $300,- for dummies" subject, you will probably find me posting nothing but positive comments on your article."

" That's my personal compromise with the law." while it is a compromise that is the same as a speeder "only going 10 miles over the limit" or someone "only smoking a small amount of pot". The law is the law and if you break it that is horrible and you should be punished. The REAL problem isn't you breaking the law (even though it is bad and ... illegal) it is advocating others to follow in your wake.

There is a word for people that dislike the law Anarchists. While I support your freedom of speech right to say whatever you want, as a part of a company and posting on behalf of tom's I find it a bit moronic.

 

[etittel]

Dear MxMaster:

Great comments all of them. Just checked on the site and the refurb units have *exactly the same warranty* (!) as the new units (same warranty document as for new units, in fact). But the lack of Mac functionality is a deal-breaker for many, even though the rumor mill continues to assert that a forthcoming update to the WHS/HP software will make this functionality available to EX47* models. I guess we'll see.

I can point you at some pretty good articles that already address your desire: Donavon West runs a great MediaSmart Website called "Home Server Hacks" (he's the guy who gave me the ideas for this article, in fact). He's recently posted the following articles:

Extreme Makeover WHS Edition (heart of the system is the Intel Little Falls Dual Core Atom mini-ITX mobo!)

VIA NSD7800 to support Windows Home Server (another cheap low power mini-ITX)

Eee Home Server Box

Make yourself at home there: you'll find more of what you're after than you can shake a stick at.

FWIW, I'm buying the Little Falls 2 mobo and a cheapo mini-ITX case that will take 2 3.5 drives and accommodate 2 more externals. The box itself will cost right around $300 including 1.5 TB of internal storage. But the problem with $300 and a fully-populated NAS/media server is that the budget doesn't allow for enough storage (enough drives, really). If you think this sounds like a good idea, though, I'll pitch it to the editor as a DIY story. PLMK what you think.

Thanks again for the feedback.

--Ed--

 

[etittel]

To FR:

Unless you wanna take it to court, let's drop it. I have a basis for my opinion that is shared by many others, and at least partially upheld by fair use doctrine. It's clear that no one is being harmed by my behavior, but that you don't like my morals and character. Shame that: I find our conversation just fascinating. I'm also guessing that if all aspects of your life were held up to similar scrutiny (and I'm subjecting myself to this voluntarily, be it known to one and all) you'd come up short in a few places, too. Nobody's perfect, and gray areas are gray precisely because things aren't completely clear. Live with it, deal with it, or excoriate it. I'm done with this discussion, however, and won't respond to any further posts from you. We're too far apart to find common ground for mutual respect and understanding.

Sorry.

--Ed--

 

[FrustratedRhino]

"Unless you wanna take it to court, let's drop it." I am not harming anyone by stating to your readers the way the law works, and the potential problems they could get in if they follow blindly.

"It's clear that no one is being harmed by my behavior" http://www.mpaa.org/piracy_WhoPiracyHurts.asp
There is no such thing as a victimless crime.

"I'm also guessing that if all aspects of your life were held up to similar scrutiny (and I'm subjecting myself to this voluntarily, be it known to one and all) you'd come up short in a few places, too." Yes I admit that whole heartedly, but then again I don't go out in public and tell people that my way of doing things is 100% legal unless infact the actions in question ... are in fact legal.


"perfect, and gray areas are gray precisely because things aren't completely clear." Grey areas are gray because people find it fun to live how they want do what they want and if they "dont get caught" they hurt nobody. Until they are a drunk that "tries to get away with" drinking and driving. Or the drug user that walks into the road causing accidents by people trying to avoid them.

"I'm done with this discussion, however, and won't respond to any further posts from you. We're too far apart to find common ground for mutual respect and understanding."

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing" Piracy exists because people are willing to ALLOW grey areas. While I understand you have run out of ways to shoot my logic down and accept your end to the conversation, I never am "willing to agree to disagree" I hope that eventually the law will either be changed or violators will ALL get punished for their misdeeds.

 

[cangelini]

Rhino,

Ed is a freelance writer, not an employee of Tom's Hardware. His views, which we respect, are his own.

With that said, I just so happen to agree with him. When I spend $30 bucks on a Blu-ray, and I want to have that content available on a media server (and there is a product available to me that facilitates that), then I'm going to use it. You and a handful of studio executives will disagree with me, and many media enthusiasts who are MORE than willing to pay for the content they watch will appreciate the information provided. I can live with that.

This isn't the place for political debate, though. Nor is Tom's Hardware a soapbox for the RIAA.

If you want to discuss editorial content on-topic and in a mature manner, you're more than welcome here. If you want to get into politics, take it offline.

 

[etittel]

OK, I said I wasn't going to respond again, but I simply must. FR insists that I'm breaking the law and instructing others to do likewise. Three remarks about this:
1. The law is not clear, so who's to say what's legal in this case and what's not. I don't share RH's finality and conviction, but I also do not believe that questionable interpretations make related conduct either reprehensible, legal, or immoral. The issue is yet to be decided.
2. The RIAA and MPAA can make all the statements they want, but they neither make laws (that's what Congress and legislatures do) nor interpret them legally (that's what courts do). This is a gray area, not yet completely decided one way or the other.
3. Where the heck does RF get off saying I am wrong and should be punished when the courts have yet to rule likewise, and mete out such punishment? Why all the scathing ad hominem attacks, and character assassination? This is just a tangential point to owning and operating a meda server, for Gosh sakes.

My final asessment: Get a life RH. Take your RIAA and MPAA quotes to the courts, and spend some money to enforce your point of view: you can't change things by arguing with me, anyway, any more than I can make gray go black and white in my favor.

And how dare you quote Edmund Burke to me and implicitly accuse me of doing evil? This is a technical forum, and a mostly technical discussion, where the legalities of the situation rightly take second place to the hows and whats of the activities involved.

I do revel in being called an anarchist, however. I'm 56 years old, bald, and the father of one, and step-father of 2 more, who's always paid his taxes, never been convicted of even the slightest legal infraction, and always pays his bills on time.

You can hope for what you will. I hope we can conclude this conversation with some dignity, and a whole lot less asperity.

--Ed--

 

[mxmaster]

Hi Ed,

I never checked out the warranty part, just assuming HP was never going to give the same warranty on a refurbished box. IMO, this makes the mod/hack a lot more attractive. The $549,99 price tag on Newegg would still make me prefer the newer model though, but with the experience/fun/doing it for the lolz arguments mentioned before, I have to agree with you that this is a decent way to go if you want to play around a bit.

Considering the suggestion I made for an article: I really don't need it for myself. Not that I have all the knowledge in the world about the subject, but I don't personally need a home server. I just haven't found a guide on that topic on tom's before, and wanted to make sure you understand people just lovethe "step-by-step every twist of the screwdriver covered" approach you used in this article. If I look at all the positive comments on this article, I feel a lot of other people feel the same. I feel I don't have the need for this very detailed approach anymore, but remember the days when I was reading undetailed "how-to" articles. (I remember building my first PC 12 years ago and especially remember not putting studs under the motherboard because it wasn't stated in the article in computer magazine )

I like the "Build a Green $400 Windows Home Server" article though. My suggestion for you to make such an article was purely to compliment you for- and encourage you to stick with the "tell-it-all" style of your article.

I am glad Donovan wasn't to annoyed you published an article very similair to his after all

Keep up the good work!

 

[etittel]

Thanks, MxMaster:

After mixing it up with RH, I'm glad to deal with more mundane matters. Given your background and knowledge, I'd urge you to look into the Atom-based Little Falls 1 & 2 mobos, though: it's astounding what kind of low-power, high functionality projects you can build on this platform. At $84 to $95 a pop, with CPU pre-installed, the LF2 is just too cool for me to pass up. My wife's using an old DFI-based Sempron 3300+ box right now and I need to build her a new PC anyway, so she's going to get a slick little mini-ITX rig with 2 GB RAM, the dual core Atom 330, and a 1 TB drive to read her email and attack HSN and her other online e-shopping haunts. Now that she's boning up for her medical boards, I'm hopeful she'll be doing some REAL computing soon.

Best wishes, and thanks for the friendly back-n-forth. Keep the suggestions coming, though: good ideas are always welcome!

--Ed--

 

[Guest]

Note: Just before xmas there were a couple of places offering the EX470 for $299 -- quite a bargain, making a homebrewed system pretty much not worth it. Another C-note (it would be less than that now) got me 2GB memory and another 500GB drive, so I was still way ahead of the EX475 pricing.

I'm curious about the Dual-Core performance gains: Is it possible you'd see gains with a heavier load, with multiple users trying to, say, stream video simultaneously at the same time it's backing up another machine?

 

[voodooaddict]

Great article. I've found the Home Server to be a great product for family and close friends of a techie. Sure we can build ourselves a Linux server, more powerful, cheaper, true RAID. However, I don't want to build one for my parents or friends. That would only mean I would support it, have to help them add space, shares, ect.

These family and friends are starting to want servers though. They seen the way we techies stream videos/movie/music from our servers to the TV. They want that capability, too. Windows Home Server is a great way to do it for them, and the HP unit makes it even simpler. (It also makes it wonderfully simple to keep them all backed up.)

Yes, I could build them a WHS cheaper, but the same size? With the same drive capacity? and simple to use drive trays for adding storage? When I tried, I could not match it. My family and friends want something small they can stick in a corner or shelf.

Everything was physically far larger or much smaller total capacity. I haven't tried in about 6 months to build my own that matched this unit's size and capability. This article has rekindled my interest in building them "better".

And onto my big question which I will also research on other sites. Can you upgrade the CPU on the new model?

 

[etittel]

Dear JoelFinkle:
Though the Intel benchmarks don't reflect this in any way that I can discern, I have personally experienced better performance on my box running codecs such as those found in add-ins DVD Manager and/or My Movies for WHS (see this blurb at WeGotServed for info) as compared to the stock Sempron 3400+ chip, especially when combined with file serving and/or backup activities. Too bad I couldn't figure out a useful way to measure that behavior! In fact, the Intel benchmarks claim to do the same activities, but show very little difference between the slower single core (3400+), the faster single core (LE-1640), and the dual-core (BE-2350) CPUs. And when the do, the results are often counter-intuitive, in that the Sempron comes out on top, LE-1640 next, and BE-2350 on the bottom. I'm still scratching my head over that one...
--Ed--

 

[etittel]

Dear VoodooAddict:

Thanks for your remarks, which are all too true: Build a PC for friend or a family member, and you've just elected yourself to "free support tech for life!" Been there, still doing that...

As for the CPU upgrade on the EX48* models, the entire exercise for the EX47* models hinged on some brilliant BIOS hacking by a person I know only by his handle, Ymboc (tried to contact him for the story but never got a response). Alex Kuretz, former HP test manager for the EX47* models, and now independent Microsoft WHS MVP indicates that research is underway but that no usable results as yet. You can read about his successful efforts to access the BIOS.

However, nobody has yet worked out BIOS hacks for the newer models. FWIW, it took about 6-9 months after the release of the first models for BIOS hacks to emerge, and another 3-4 months for them to solidify to something that ordinary mortals could do themselves. I'm guessing it will also take some time for similar hacks to emerge for the EX48* models for pretty much the same reasons: lots of work involved, mostly for trial and error attempts to fiddle the BIOS. Also, this box uses an AMI BIOS, whereas the AMD-based 47* models used a Phoenix BIOS. From everything I can tell, tools for inspecting and modifying the latter (Phoenix) are more readily available and easier to use than the former (AMI). But then, I'm no BIOS expert, either.

As for small, small, small WHS MediaServers, check out Donavon West's recent articles at HomeServerHacks.com, where you'll find recent and detailed coverage of some mini-ITX and (I believe) even pico-ITX implementations that meet that criterion quite well. You may be excited to see what's possible nowadays in a truly compact form factor.

Thanks for posting,
--Ed--

 

[FrustratedRhino]

My original comment on the subject was a simple "do what you want but don't tell others it is the way to do it without a disclaimer".

YOU took it to the next level getting into politics. But, when you say that politics has no place in technology site, you are proving right here where it is NEEDED.

I am not trying to grandstand or "soapbox" up a situation, I am trying to help inform the people that if they follow your suggestion they are breaking US and International law.

Regardless of what your (or my views) of the law are, I was informing what the law IS. While people find loopholes in all laws (like freedom of speech and the freedom of the press) some miss the point. While you can find a way around it, the law is clear, if it breaks copy protection, it is illegal. Copy Protection is the way an artist/producer retains control over their work.

Do I think you should be able to legally copy your own stuff? yes. Does that matter? no.

While the law hasn't been completely attacking the end users, right now, that doesn't mean it is legal. Just because every speeder isn't caught does that make it "legal" to speed? no, it just means you got away with the crime, it doesn't mean there was no crime. It goes back to "if a tree falls in a forest with noone around to hear it, does it still make a sound" yes... it does, that is how the world works.

While a philosophical discussion can be had about the merits of the DMCA and its international variants, that is beside the point. Do what you want, but if you advocate others to do the same, expect someone might want to say something about it.

"And how dare you quote Edmund Burke to me and implicitly accuse me of doing evil?" This made me laugh so hard. BTW from wikipedia "Evil, in many cultures, is a broad term used to describe intentional negative moral acts or thoughts that are cruel, unjust or selfish."

Following a law is moral. "Intentional negative moral acts" could be a direct example of breaking the law.

So yes I dare say you are perpetuating evil. Just as much as a drug user is responsible for ALL the poppy fields. If the user didn't exist the fields wouldn't make money and people wouldn't die for that product.

When you get off your high horse and start to rejoin us lawful people I will rejoice. Until then I will rnadomly stop by and say the law is law. I am not a lawyer, I don't work for the RIAA or the MPAA, I just am a citizen that likes America and would love to have America more lawful and less like the wild west.

You may veheminantly dislike my view, but it is supported by fact not opinion.

"Ed is a freelance writer, not an employee of Tom's Hardware. His views, which we respect, are his own." "If you want to discuss editorial content on-topic and in a mature manner" So it isn't mature to say something is illegal? Wonderful.

 

[etittel]

To Frustrated Rhino:

I think you're more interested in pugilism and confrontation than any substance. In reading over your postings from the beginning I see you were trying to pick a fight from the get-go (1. "slow news day" 2. "square peg in round hole.") I hope you've enjoyed yourself!

Do drop in from time to time as you see fit, but expect to get no more disagreement or remonstration from me, nor any other form of attention. Go gore somebody else. Perhaps that's the source of your frustration?

--Ed--

 

[cletus_slackjawd]

Good article. I have been looking at this HP mediasmart server for some time now. 500GB on the original version was too small though. Now they are triple that it may be worth getting. It's also nice to know that software corruption bug has been finally fixed. I may buy one now. If Windows Home Server was cheaper I think there would be a larger DIY people repurposing old computers. I'm too lazy to learn linux so WHS would be my choice. "GIVE ME +PLUSES"

 

[etittel]

Dear Cletus:

Great handle (makes me think of an old Zappa song). You should definitely check out the new deals on 1 TB drives: now available for under $100. The Hitachis go for $88 at NewEgg right now, but they run a little too hot for my taste. I like the SpinpPoints (Samsung) and the 7200.11s from Seagate (but if you go with the latter be sure to grab the new firmware update).

Do check out the other MediaSmart Enthusiast sites: I posted a list of them on the first forum page for this article.

Thanks for posting,
--Ed--

 

[namssurt]

We use sql server on an xp server and all it does is run that and act as a print server. Would WHS work for us? Or is the OS hardware or software locked to prevent it stealing sales from regular Windows server systems?