Halflife 2 - which card should I buy.

ufo_warviper · Sep 9, 2003

UFO_Warviper for example, likes to study on various religions. I respect a lot the fact he is open minded this way and looks at different things with no irrationality

Thanks for the complement Eden ;-),

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ufo_warviper · Sep 9, 2003

Fellows, isn't this getting a little personal, or out of hand. The last time I checked yall got along pretty well.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

TheGreatGrapeApe · Sep 9, 2003

Did it occur to you if they cheat they would not need to cheat if they gained better profits to get themself out of a hole?

Seriously dude what's THAT?

That's first of all verging on incomprehensible (let alone indefensible),and then it's a TERRIBLE justification of a method that doesn't allow you any credibility in comparisons. If it were found that the Quadros (which you know I've respected or a long time) were 'cheating' in various proffesional apps, would you feel the same way? If the next Wildcats blew the competition away by doing the same thing in the workstation market that nV does in the gaming market, would you respect that? Seriously it's an empty statement, and knowing you likely off the cuff and hopefuly not your tre feelings on the subject.

You can't ignore the actions of nV in the gaming market as their wokstation cards are a bi-product (not the driving force) of that market. Sure there are alot of subjective feelings about who's doign what to whom, but surporting cheating of any kind is not good. If it were a question of just optimizations (leaving IQ, etc thesame then I'd say you have something), but with the 'cheats' that reduce IQ and contradict your OWN personal setting nV sets a bad precedent. Should that go unchallenegedthen who knows what's next. As for the designs themselves oviously you've come to terms with their shortcomings in this batch (one can only hope the next-gen. are better).
Either you have a bad personal history with ATI/driver team, or perhaps just a personal preference for nV. But either way, you can't deny that right now ATI are shipping a very solid quality product with pretty good drivers/support. Even their workstation cards are making SMALL progress.

And while you state that you would go with a 'GF7', the problem is that it's such a 'vision/dream' now that there is no way of knowing exactly how it will fare in a 'fair' comparison to the competition either. As for the Quadros, they are king NOW, but when is your next upgrade (since you also mention the GF7 in the same breath/sentence)? By that time perhaps they will have been dethroned by ATI, 3Dlabs, or someone else (likely those two if any, but maybe Matrox

).
You obviously have your fav. (like me and Matrox) and I would agree with you in the workstation market for the Quadros; but since the maker of the Quadros (nV of course) is mainly focused on their GF line (the source of Quadro HW) that is the standard by which they are held, and right now the main body of the company is ailing badly. Sure profits from the FX5200s and such may help reverse their fortunes, but considering that they've lost market share (to both Intel and ATI [still depends on which numbers you look at]) and lost revenue (that's clear enough), then it's not like they have more money to fix these problems than they had before, if anything they may be more desperate than before. Just hope it doesn't flow into the one market they still have a commanding lead in. But in the end the above comment (quoted) has no potential as profits and revenue have dropped, and dropped even more in comparison to their adversaries' fortunes.

I still think things are far from over for nV (why people even mention it as such I don't know), I think they have as much chance as anyone at being the out-in-front leader in the consumer sement however they can't do it IMO by continuing with some of their current tactics.

I think this thread has been a little sidetracked and the issue is etting a little cloudy. PErhaps there have been too many ill-spoken words, but I certainly hope that you guys don't take this stuff so personal in the future, man it's faceless companies, who's main focus is profits, regardless of which segment we are talking about.

Try and get some Peace, or get a Piece; maybe that'll help!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

flamethrower205 · Sep 9, 2003

Eden, these are two different things here. One is me as a consumer with NV. What my point was trying to establish was that when a company is having trouble, they'll struggle and may not be able to get on par. Similar to say how a student who doesn't get something will cheat, let's say b/c the teacher didn't explain it well. Now if the teacher spent a little extra time, and the student got it, he wouldn't need to cheat. Same here. It's not nice, but if consumers showed a little support, not of the cheating, but of the company as a whole, perhaps they could then make necessary changes so they wouldn't have to cheat. So maybe they don't have the cash to spend now to research a better card so they tell their programmers please "optimize" as necessary. that's a sign of the company being in trouble.
As for business, that is a different story. If I started my business, I'd follow the rule that the ends justify the means. That's a different debate (as you may have seen, I am driven by money).

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"

ufo_warviper · Sep 9, 2003

I really don't see how consumers would be to blame for cheating man. It' not the buyers or lack there of that tells the company to cheat. I'm not trying to argue here. I beleive a company's integrity is better held if their bussinesss is played honestly. When companies get into product naming schemes that are deceptive at worst, or confusing at best, I tend to stop trusting a company. When Nvidia pulled the GeForce4 MX last year I made for sre that my next card was an ATi (Radeon 8500LE 128MB). ATI is deceptively naming their cards this year, just as Nvidia did last year with the GeForce4 cards. So as far as track records for naming, both companies were well until about last year or so. ATi was soon to follow 1 year later

.

As lame as poorly named cards are, I beleive that true-blue cheating is even worse for a companies' integrity. I don't like naming conventions that smoke pot, but all this cheating is much more devious than a badly named card. Why? Because, at least the specs are always honestly on the box. With driver cheating, Nvidia can pop in whenever they desire, and slip in an "optimization" here and there. Expect more "optimzations" (I mean detonator driver) to be leaked out as games that enter the market leak out. Nvidia usually isn't good at cover-up. Look at the "September 30th" Release date for Detonator 50. That corresoponds driectly to the release date of Half-Life2. Also interesting is that it is scheduled for realease after a mere 1 week after the intitial release of A64.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

TheGreatGrapeApe · Sep 10, 2003

Flame, I have to agree with UFO here; you can't blame the consumer for nV actions (teacher analogy), and the consumer shouldn't support someone because they've made missteps in business, that would be rewarding supidity or an inferior product. Very FEW people will buy an inferior product in face of a quality competitive part (those people are what's called Brand-loyal in marketing, and Fanbois around here). nVidia wouldn't collapse due to one poor sales cycle, and still has lots of reserve r&D cash etc. to go in a different direction (one that may mirror the competition), but they don't need help from consumers, who WOULD be better served with a competitors product, while waiting for their return to glory.
The consumer should look out for #1, that motivation DOES push advancement forward. Blind loyalty wouln't help nV change and make their product better, it would simply reinforce the idea that a poor quality product will still make them profits, thus reinforcing negative behaviour.

From your perspective it may look different as the blind loyalty of the peons who buy inferior products still helps support the development of the quality product YOU buy/prefer. The MX and FX5200 (and R9200) owners of this world pay for the R&D of the top o he line and workstation cards. However a company's reputation elps them weather a single let-down based on their name/history. However if they pull stunts or ignore consumer sentiment that just makes what could have been a small set-back, a note worthy thing and shakes the confidence people have/had. No matter how you look at it their recent actions aren't a GOOD thing. Thei only savin grace is that a large portion (majority) of their current consumers have no idea the difference between a GF4ti and GF4MX (even if they own top of the lin cards). They are also those that see 256mb and equate that to being better

As much as you make the statement that the ends justif the means, that's spoken like someone who hasn't been in business, since ou learn fast that a repeat customer is what you want. Most people don't make too much money (outsde of crime) by screwing over their customers for the quick buck. When you are dealing with large companies, fly by night tactics don't 'fly'. They may work to gain you balance sheet/ stock performance for a short while, but in the end it can destroy a company. There are MANY examples that litter the american business landscape.

Simply put, he onus is on nV itself, just as it was for ATI (both in quack and in their driver issues). You can argue to hold on for improvements (like many said for ATI's drivers), but unless it's accompanied by what appears to be honest efforts/motivation from the company seeking that loyalty/faith, then these people are chumps and SHOULDN'T support the company that doesn't see them as more than ignorant $ signs.

We shall see what the next generation brings and if that changes nV fortunes/outlook/image.

EDIT;
As for poorly named cards, seriously BOTH companies are guilty of that, unless someone can explain to me exactly how the FX5200non-ultra is anywere NEAR the perfromance of a GF4ti4600 overall, and a GF3ti vs GF4MX. A little basic research clarifies that, serious in-depth research is required to uncover issues like the UT2K3 'optimization' on which that basic research now is called into question.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 09/09/03 04:59 PM.

flamethrower205 · Sep 10, 2003

Ok, then look at it that I am holding on and have faith that it will be good.
As for the business part, I'm not talking about dealing with customers, the profession I'm looking to enter is stock trading where I don't have to deal with customers, rather money and the stock market.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"

TheGreatGrapeApe · Sep 10, 2003

Having faith is a good thing, I still hold faith/hope/a burning canle in the storm for Matrox. The main thing is don't let that faith cloud our judgement. You seem to know your situation, haven't let it cloud your overall judgement, you've just postponed an upgrade and remain loyal. Turning a blind eye maybe, that's up to you, but as it may not apply to your curret situation (since you seem to be able to wait for future upgrade G7?) perhaps you have that luxury.
Stock trading is ALOT tighter and more regulated thn you can imagine. Pull something like this and go to jail. There is no SEC in this market. And who do you plan on trading/brokering stocks for? You will have to win their loyalty/funds, even corporate clients. And the only way you are going to start with large asset accounts is if you are very well connected (and then it better be blood 'cause we're talking serious money). Don't think that trust management (which sounds like large asset management) will be any better, imagine money with more strings and fingers in it than gov't or charity funds.
You will likely have to build your own client base so even then, expect to EARN people's/companies' respect and trust. One bad quarter/year is ok, anyhing beyond that they'll say, 'I'm sorry you're a great guy, but I have to think of my family etc.'
Been there, done that (may end up going back [NOOOoooo!]). You can bethe very best, but they will always say 'what have you done for me lately'. At least that stays pretty true along ALL industries.

I hope your faith pays of, because in the long run it's good for all of us. Having only one dominant player is a bad thing IMO, yes I'd prefer that the foil to ATI be Matrox, but I don't see that as being realistic right now (maybe one day). So I'm left with nV despite all their recent warts (which tend to hurt everyone IMO).

That's how I see it.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

flamethrower205 · Sep 10, 2003

O, I know what you mean about the regulations. This summer we had to remodel several things because of the regulations in the stock market (I hate how half the sh!t has to be done by a human pushing a button, and not simply a machine).

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"

eden · Sep 10, 2003

Having only one dominant player is a bad thing IMO, yes I'd prefer that the foil to ATI be Matrox, but I don't see that as being realistic right now

This is the problem inherent to Flame. He blindly believes in them rather than just be open about them and believe in them (all the while being a true open consumer), but refuses to try anything else or if time came and the competition was superior in even the Workstation cards, he wouldn't buy and rather continue believing in the current loser in the match.
That's the problem and I see it as not a good thing. Your case is the thing he should follow IMO, by keeping faith, but not blindly like: "Oh they did this and that, but it's ok, they'll get better". Yall said that with each new cheat they did. It's not healthy faith at all. It's like keeping faith in a cult where they continue doing wrong: OH but it was an action by mistake, it happens. Yeah, I believe in them, they'll improve.

Until you're the victim eventually. Sadly there are too many here, who may get the big blow in DX9 soon. :frown:

I saved a friend from getting an FX5600 256MB! He's getting a 9800np now, hehe. Hail to ATi's current lead baby.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</A>Edited by Eden on 09/09/03 08:39 PM.

eden · Sep 10, 2003

Fellows, isn't this getting a little personal, or out of hand. The last time I checked yall got along pretty well.

Bah, we can't all be geek pussies afraid of the sun all the time can we? :lol:

Fights happen here and there, and I guess I've ignited several of them, muahhaha. Remember, I am the Forum Whino! Bow down and receive your punishment!

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</A>

flamethrower205 · Sep 10, 2003

If I recall correctly, you bend over to Scam. Regardless, u wanted action in the graphics forums

Now I go to bed, and it's before 12 for once and I've finished by homework!! Incredible!!!!

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"

flamethrower205 · Sep 10, 2003

There's one thing that pisses me off about the sun. My right arm's hair has turned blond b/c the sun, while my left remains black. It looks weird.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"

ufo_warviper · Sep 10, 2003

You got pics of that???

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

coolsquirtle · Sep 10, 2003

guys just all calm down and nail UFO together

sorry UFO

Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF

ufo_warviper · Sep 10, 2003

Aww, poor little baby! Goochy goochy goo! Still mad about me robbing & improving your "Official Bump logo"? I know it was lame, but I'll post the source for for the improved one if you like(it took like 10 or 15 mintues to improve it). In the mean time, I'll tease every now and then?

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

ufo_warviper · Sep 10, 2003

PNY must die!!!!!!!!!! Give squirtle his card, or I shall curse you!

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

jankphil · Sep 10, 2003

Well from what i see, If your playing HL2, then the radeon card is the way to go...and before mr Flame starts hounding me about it, here's something he should look at

Update 09/06: We also emailed Gabe Newell from Valve Software about his experience with Pixel Shader Performance:

GD: We've started some initial DX9 Shader tests, and have seen, so far that NVIDIA NV3x hardware has a hard time.. Will it'll be similar w/ the HL2 Benchmark?

"Yep."

Gabe Newell

Update 09/05: We emailed id Software guru, John Carmack about his experience with NV3x hardware on Pixel Shading performance, and this was his reply:

GD: John, we've found that NVIDIA hardware seems to come to a crawl whenever Pixel Shader's are involved, namely PS 2.0..

Have you witnessed any of this while testing under the Doom3 environment?

"Yes. NV30 class hardware can run the ARB2 path that uses ARB_fragment_program, but it is very slow, which is why I have a separate NV30 back end that uses NV_fragment_program to specify most of the operations as 12 or 16 bit instead of 32 bit."

John Carmack

Now unless nVidia's new Det's 50's can solve the PS2 problem, it looks like it's gona take some big performance hits in HL2.... Software fix or not, it's pretty obvious there

<A HREF="http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati_vs_nvidia/dx9_desktop/001.htm" target="_new">http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati_vs_nvidia/dx9_desktop/001.htm</A>

"What kind of idiot are you?"
"I don't know, what kinds are there?"

eden · Sep 10, 2003

Actually it seems the Det 50s will.............by lowering precision to 12/16-bit!

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</A>

jankphil · Sep 11, 2003

Actually it seems the Det 50s will.............by lowering precision to 12/16-bit!

Isn't that what they do already...

"What kind of idiot are you?"
"I don't know, what kinds are there?"

flamethrower205 · Sep 11, 2003

Mmmm, see I should go work for NV. I wuv problems like that that'd make me stay up all night dealing with efficiency. 'Tis one of the big parts of my quantum simulations!!

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"

eden · Sep 11, 2003

You wouldn't be able to help jack dude, no one can anymore. It's just a bad core scrambled with horrible components that simply can't be optimized much.

Valve themselves tried to optimize with a special NV3x codepath and the perf stayed below the 9800PRO.

Please stop trying to pass as the great programmer Flame, this is a pretty serious situation they got and I don't think anyone right now could possibly save them in the drivers dept.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</A>Edited by Eden on 09/10/03 10:02 PM.

eden · Sep 11, 2003

...and you thought they couldn't go lower...

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</A>

cleeve · Sep 11, 2003

Well, the verdict is out. In your price range, the 9800 non-PRO is the way to go.

------------------
Radeon 9500 (modded to PRO w/8 pixel pipelines)
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3529

eden · Sep 11, 2003

Well you couldn't have come any earlier than that! :lol:

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</A>

Halflife 2 - which card should I buy.

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