News HDMI Forum rejects AMD's HDMI 2.1 open-source driver

[snemarch]

Royalties help with:

1. Paying for research of future versions
2. Pays for testing to assure compliance
3. Without licensing, there is no penalty for violating standards. Anybody can slap a "HDMI V2.1 ready" on their box if it's compliant or not. That can damage the standards image.

I'm not entirely against royalties, if they're kept to a fair level – especially if you need it to fund research, rather than companies paying for the research for their own financial interests, while collaborating on a standard.

But it's also possible take another approach – keep the spec open, don't require royalties for the software part (thus enabling open-source drivers), and require certification to use branding (and perhaps reasonable per-hardware-device royalties).

You're not going to stop reverse-engineered ripoffs or false compliance claims anyway

 

[UnforcedERROR]

FWIW, DisplayPort also carries audio.

You're correct, though the difference is that HDMI was created specifically for TVs and founded by a group of major TV companies (Sony, Panasonic, etc.). EDIT: DisplayPort was created by a bunch of companies for PC and relied on VESA standards, my bad. It's been a while. They're basically the TV and PC equivalent of each other.

But, in 2024, HDMI has been around for so long in the TV space that almost all connections rely on it. Licensing fees be damned, of course. The first HDMI spec was in 2002, vs. 2006 for DisplayPort.

 

[snemarch]

You're correct, though the difference is that HDMI was created specifically for TVs and founded by a group of major TV companies (Sony, Panasonic, etc.). EDIT: DisplayPort was created by a bunch of companies for PC and relied on VESA standards, my bad. It's been a while. They're basically the TV and PC equivalent of each other.

Yeah – and I have no idea if DisplayPort has control signalling support (e.g. an equivalent to HDMI's CEC)

 

[UnforcedERROR]

Yeah – and I have no idea if DisplayPort has control signalling support (e.g. an equivalent to HDMI's CEC)

I don't think it does, but don't quote me on that. Honestly, HDMI may as well not have CEC and EDID management given how ridiculously broken it can be sometimes...

 

[davidjao]

It's a shame that TVs don't use DisplayPort though. If you want to use a tv as a monitor, you have to use HDMI.

HDMI still works in Linux. You just can't get the very best display quality and refresh rates. For a presentation or a TV, I think it's fine to have lower quality. The message is just to make sure that your main monitors support DisplayPort.

 

[wiak]

HDMI 2.1what? they really [Mod Edit] up the versioning now as 2.1 can now be optionally any feature lol, some don't even have 48gbps bandwidth :/ and now this stupid stuff

am curious will a DP 1.4/2.0 to HDMI 2.1 48GBps adapters workaround this?

 

[wiak]

I don't think it does, but don't quote me on that. Honestly, HDMI may as well not have CEC and EDID management given how ridiculously broken it can be sometimes...

wait CEC is a feature? i always thought it was a bug 😏

 

[CmdrShepard]

I anticipate a lone wayward AMD engineer will 'leak' the driver, against all orders from AMD, of course, and anonymously so they cannot find out who it was.

Term you are looking for is "rogue engineer".

 

[CmdrShepard]

Yet another reason to abolish HDMI and only purchase DisplayPort-capable hardware.

The problem is that most TVs and projectors are HDMI so it's a serious issue in conference rooms.

Greedy royalty rent-seekers and Digital Restrictions Management supporters should be shipped off to Siberia.

Please, ship them into the Sun. Don't pollute Siberia with that trash.

 

[CmdrShepard]

HDMI 2.1what? they really fckedu up the versioning now as 2.1 can now be optionally any feature lol, some don't even have 48gbps bandwidth :/ and now this stupid stuff

Give them a break, will you? They were just following the USB Forum lead on the naming.

/s because it's probably needed.

 

[JamesJones44]

It's a shame that TVs don't use DisplayPort though. If you want to use a tv as a monitor, you have to use HDMI.

That's because several of the TV manufactures are the owners of HDMI and those sweet royalties are worth their weight in gold to them.

 

[spongiemaster]

It's a shame that TVs don't use DisplayPort though. If you want to use a tv as a monitor, you have to use HDMI.

No, you don't. Display port to HDMI adapters are less than $10 on Amazon.

 

[Vixzer]

True. On the bright side at least some companies are trying now. I read articles like this and make a mental note, go display port for all hardware and stay away from HDMI whenever possible. It only hurts the HDMI spec in the long run, but there is collateral damage to open source along the way like you said. I also watch and see AMD putting in real $ and effort to support open source so I'll buy their products as well. This from someone who barely uses Linux but still wants the option to.

If only TV used displayport, it would be easier to stop using hdmi altogether.

If videocards and monitors stopped coming with hdmi ports too...

 

[davidjao]

The problem is that most TVs and projectors are HDMI so it's a serious issue in conference rooms.

HDMI still works in Linux. You just can't get the very best display quality or refresh rates. For a conference room it's not a big issue if you don't have gamer-optimal refresh rates.

 

[-Fran-]

This is a problem with the Open Source driver because it actually tells people how to use the DRM (and hence, bypass it without reverse engineering the blob), but it's fine for the normal closed source blob from AMD (or it should be).

As the article doesn't seem to be clear on that respect and to add: nVidia doesn't have this problem because they don't have a FOSS driver or support any of the initiatives for them. They just wanted to make a headline about "open sourcing" (a part) of their drivers as a PR move and, as always, everyone went in line and sinker. Yes, I'm still salty about them using "the tech press" as an arm of their PR machine and clowning everyone in that space.

In any case, I try to steer clear from using HDMI anyway. It's not like their consortium hasn't been operating like a (as the term seems to be getting famous) cartel. DisplayPort and USB are the only less crappy standards left.

Regards.

 

[davidjao]

This is a problem with the Open Source driver because it actually tells people how to use the DRM (and hence, bypass it without reverse engineering the blob), but it's fine for the normal closed source blob from AMD (or it should be).

If some particular hardware doesn't work with open source drivers because of DRM, this isn't a "problem with the open source driver." It's a problem with the hardware.

 

[CmdrShepard]

HDMI still works in Linux. You just can't get the very best display quality or refresh rates. For a conference room it's not a big issue if you don't have gamer-optimal refresh rates.

You apparently never saw conference rooms for design collaboration (like building cars and stuff) -- they have extremely high resolution, color fidelity, and I guess by now also refresh rate, requirements. But then, those are probably using Windows or Mac to begin with.

 

[davidjao]

You apparently never saw conference rooms for design collaboration (like building cars and stuff) -- they have extremely high resolution, color fidelity, and I guess by now also refresh rate, requirements. But then, those are probably using Windows or Mac to begin with.

The point I'm trying to make is, if it's YOUR conference room, and you control the hardware purchasing decisions for that conference room, then you can make sure to purchase what you need (e.g. DisplayPort hardware) to get the most out of that room.
It's very rare that you need to go into some random off-site conference room that you don't own, and do serious design work in that location. Sure, it's possible, but it's a really narrow niche.

 

[Sleepy_Hollowed]

The only thing that display port does not have that hdmi does for the average user is control signals for audio and power up/down for audio and tv systems, that’s it.

If they can be put in DP (or something similar), it’s game over for hdmi.

It might be already with usb c/thunderbolt.

 

[Starfal]

If only TVs could start using DP as well...

 

[Sluggotg]

If AMD wants true open source, they should develop their own proprietary cable connection. They could call It the A M D I , the Advanced Media Display Interface! ( Obviously Joking ).

 

[bit_user]

3. Without licensing, there is no penalty for violating standards. Anybody can slap a "HDMI V2.1 ready" on their box if it's compliant or not. That can damage the standards image.

That's not true. You can trademark a name & logo. Anyone who uses it without certification could be subject to litigation via trademark infringement.

As for how development of the standard is funded:

"While VESA does not charge any per-device royalty fees, VESA requires membership for access to said standards. The minimum cost is presently $5,000 (or $10,000 depending on Annual Corporate Sales Revenue) annually."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
​

 

[bit_user]

This is a problem with the Open Source driver because it actually tells people how to use the DRM (and hence, bypass it without reverse engineering the blob), but it's fine for the normal closed source blob from AMD (or it should be).

Don't be so sure. If the GPU implements bitstream decryption in hardware and has memory encryption of the frame buffer, even a hacked driver might not give you access to the unencrypted data, in any form.

nVidia doesn't have this problem because they don't have a FOSS driver or support any of the initiatives for them.

This was true for a long time*, until it wasn't.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-2023-Highlights
​

They just wanted to make a headline about "open sourcing" (a part) of their drivers as a PR move and, as always, everyone went in line and sinker. Yes, I'm still salty about them using "the tech press" as an arm of their PR machine and clowning everyone in that space.

It does exist! It just has taken a while to get off the ground. Don't tell me that even after seeing how much trouble Intel had with their dGPU driver, you still don't appreciate what a big undertaking it is to write one!

* That's assuming we don't count the Nouveau driver, which Nvidia didn't officially support.

 

[bit_user]

The only thing that display port does not have that hdmi does for the average user is control signals for audio and power up/down for audio and tv systems, that’s it.

DisplayPort still lacks some features like audio return channel (ARC) and embedded ethernet. I use ARC to get sound through my A/V receiver, when the TV is playing a video stream or over-the-air broadcast.

BTW, here are some of the features added in HDMI 2.1:

• Enhanced audio return channel (eARC)
• Variable Refresh Rate (VRR)
• Quick Media Switching (QMS)
• Quick Frame Transport (QFT)
• Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM)
• Display Stream Compression (DSC)
• Source-Based Tone Mapping (SBTM)

Of those, I think VRR, DSC, and SBTM are likely of interest to some Linux users.

 

[bit_user]

Display port to HDMI adapters are less than $10 on Amazon.

I think the cheap ones are probably just passive DP++ adapters. In other words, the DisplayPort controller detects when you're using them and simply switches its output to HDMI. According to the DisplayPort Wikipedia page, most DP connectors support DP++ - even when not explicitly indicated.

DisplayPort - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org