Question Help a noob - Display goes off with games

[Walkers00]

My system:
CPU: Intel i7-4790k
PSU Corsair VS 650
Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2H
Ram: 16GB
GPU: GTX 970

I can normally work things out myself given enough time but I am out of ideas. When I play a game (It doesn't have to be an intensive game, but some old games seem to be fine) my display turns off. Right after there is an error sounds by windows and the music and audio keeps playing through my speakers, but the system is not functioning (I know this because I try to alt+f4 or alt+tab and the audio keeps playing).
I have tried various things, my CPU seems to be hot. I have taken it to a computer shop to clean off the old paste and replace it as I am scared to do it, in case I mess it up. He also made sure that all of the parts (mainly fans) are secured properly. He suggested a new GPU, but it seems like he is just trying to sell me a graphics card. I think this because he told me I needed one because icons were "magically appearing on my desktop" when it was just my onedrive syncing from a clean windows install. I told him this and he said... "no, this is a serious display problem and a new graphics card will fix it". When that issue was literally my onedrive downloading my desktop because he connected to his wifi at the shop.

I have tried a clean windows install and played Overwatch 2 with nothing else installed (apart from Blizzard app obviously) and it still happened. I chose to test on Overwatch 2 because I used to play the game loads on medium settings and would hold 60fps, so I tried it locked to 30 and on lowest settings, which it should handle no problem. I have my system now running on barebones apps running and any system processes I understand turned off on start up. I changed all windows preferences to favour performance etc. Nothing seems to help. I don't really know enough about hardware to diagnose the issue. I tried to clean it out as best I can with wet wipes and a duster. I have also locked windows to 30 frames. I installed open hardware monitor to monitor the parts, they all seem to be ok. I also installed MSI afterburner to play with the performance of my GPU to see if I could get it working, I couldn't. I even had the fan running at max to try and help the CPU temp, but it didn't seem to affect it.

I read that it could be a temperature issue (which I am aware of but I don't know how to remedy) , a GPU issue (I know my machine is dated but I would think a 970 should be ok to run games on low settings and locked fps without the system crashing), a power issue (I read that my system should be loud if my PSU is too weak, but it's really quiet). In this economic climate, I don't mind buying a new part if I know it will fix the issue but I can't just buy all new parts to test what's wrong.

 

[Aeacus]

My system:
CPU: Intel i7-4790k
PSU Corsair VS 650
Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2H
Ram: 16GB
GPU: GTX 970

Did you buy it as prebuilt? 🤔

He suggested a new GPU, but it seems like he is just trying to sell me a graphics card.

There is some truth in that.

To test if your GPU is an issue, bench it, with Superposition,
link: https://benchmark.unigine.com/superposition

Use 1080p preset. Medium or High. Using Extreme preset will stress test your GPU beyond belief (you'd get only few FPS during bench). But still, Extreme preset is also good to be ran.
Score wise, 1080p Medium preset should give you ~8400, 1080p High ~5900 and 1080p Extreme ~2100.

If no artifacts appear during the bench and it finishes without issues, GPU is sound.

When I play a game (It doesn't have to be an intensive game, but some old games seem to be fine) my display turns off. Right after there is an error sounds by windows and the music and audio keeps playing through my speakers, but the system is not functioning (I know this because I try to alt+f4 or alt+tab and the audio keeps playing).

This points towards GPU driver issue. Could be that you have a bad driver version. In this case, uninstall current drivers with DDU and install version or two older drivers, to see if it helps.

Another thing to try would be trying the Win + Ctrl + Shift + B key combo once you're seeing the black screen. This command resets the GPU drivers and may bring the image back. <- This won't fix the underlying issue per se, but could save you from cold restart.

I don't mind buying a new part if I know it will fix the issue but I can't just buy all new parts to test what's wrong.

PSU Corsair VS 650

This you need to replace regardless.

Depending which version you have, your PSU is either low quality (gray label) or complete crap (orange label).
With PSU, it is very possible that over the years, it has fed out of specs voltages to your hardware, damaging them over time, until to the point that you'll see issues or complete hardware failure.
Bad PSU is also one of the main reasons why PC can't operate during heavier load (usually gaming).

For new PSU, get good/great quality unit. E.g Seasonic Focus/PRIME or Corsair RMx/RMi/HX/HXi/AX/AXi.
(All 3 of my PCs are also powered by Seasonic, full specs with pics in my sig.)

For 2nd opinion about your current Corsair unit, look it up from PSU tier list,
link: https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...er-list-rev-14-8-final-update-jul-21.3624094/

It is either Tier D (gray label) or Tier E (orange label), while what i suggest and am personally using, is anything from Tier A.

 

[Walkers00]

First of all, thank you so much for your time and the information you've given me.

Did you buy it as prebuilt? 🤔

Yes I did, about 8 or 9 years ago and has been ok uptil this year.

To test if your GPU is an issue, bench it, with Superposition,

I just did this and I bench marched medium 1080p with no issue. I then did high and it crashed my display. I tried Win+crl+sft+b and I can hear the beep but it didn't come back on. I restarted my PC, run the benchmarker straight away and it seemed to then run high and extreme with no issue. FPS on medium was 60 throughout, 40-45fps on medium and 15 on extreme.
This is typical, when I play a game for the first time of the day it will crash within 5 mins. I will restart the system and run it again and it will be good for an hour or two and then crash again. Putting the game on low or high settings doesn't seem to make a difference to that.

Depending which version you have, your PSU is either low quality (gray label) or complete crap (orange label).

I have an image that I just took for you. I assume its a bad one tbh (https://ibb.co/vsMXkPm). I don't fully understand hardware compatibility though. I know pieces and what they are, makes and models etc but I've never built a system so I don't get which parts are compatible etc. I tried to work out how much power my system needed but there doesn't seem to be something that can just tell me.

Based on this information I guess I need a new PSU and GPU?

 

[Aeacus]

Yes I did, about 8 or 9 years ago and has been ok uptil this year.

Yeah, it shows by component selection that it was prebuilt.

High-end CPU with barebones MoBo. On top of that, K-series CPU should be used with Z-series MoBo, e.g Z97 chipset. Since that would enable CPU OC. Also the issue of using Intel 80-series chipset MoBo, and not Intel 90-series chipset. 90-series was made for Haswell Refresh CPUs (Core i5/i7 K-series, like yours). Though, 80-series still works, but would need latest BIOS. Another thing is crap PSU with, at that time, high-end GPU.
So, plenty of mistakes by those who built it.

This is typical, when I play a game for the first time of the day it will crash within 5 mins. I will restart the system and run it again and it will be good for an hour or two and then crash again. Putting the game on low or high settings doesn't seem to make a difference to that.

Could very well be PSU issue.

I assume its a bad one tbh (https://ibb.co/vsMXkPm). I don't fully understand hardware compatibility though. I know pieces and what they are, makes and models etc but I've never built a system so I don't get which parts are compatible etc. I tried to work out how much power my system needed but there doesn't seem to be something that can just tell me.

Yeah, your PSU is complete crap and should be replaced ASAP. Especially how old it is.

For compatibility, you can try out PCpartpicker,
link: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/

With it, and when you select a component, it will not let you select wrong component. E.g if you pick i5-6500 CPU, it only allows you to pick Intel 100- and 200-series MoBos. Since those are compatible, while rest are not. Or when you pick a CPU cooler, e.g NH-D15, it won't let you pick PC cases that have less than 165mm CPU cooler clearance. Because, CPU cooler wouldn't fit otherwise.

Regarding PC power consumption, there are calculators out there, where you can put in your PC specs and it then calculates the appropriate wattage for your build. But i do it manually, meaning;
#1 I look GPU TDP, usually from TechPowerUP. Your GTX 970 is 185W, link: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-gtx-970.c2620
#2 If need be, i consider GPU transient power spikes (true for RTX 30- and 40-series).
#3 I look CPU TDP, from Intel or AMD official specs. Your Core i7 is 88W, link: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...r-8m-cache-up-to-4-40-ghz/specifications.html
#4 I consider the rest of the PC (case fans, HDDs, SSDs etc) at ~150W.

So, all that put together, would be: 185W + 88W + 150W = ~423W.
Then, i also add safe headroom ontop of that, usually 200W (to factor in any possible CPU or GPU OC user may do). This, with headroom, results in ~623W, meaning that 650W PSU is enough for your build.

When it comes to which make and model component to pick, especially PSUs, you need to read PSU reviews by reputable reviewers, to know if the PSU is good or not. If there is no PSU review, don't buy it. Since PSU powers everything, it is the most important component inside the PC.
Reading reviews can be tiresome, so, easier would be asking the info from TH experts (like you're doing currently).

Based on this information I guess I need a new PSU and GPU?

New PSU is a must. As far as new GPU goes, i'd 1st buy new PSU and test with it. It is possible that only your crap PSU is at fault and you can get more out of your GTX 970.

However, if issues remain, try testing with 2nd GPU (easiest is to borrow one for testing). Another option is removing your GTX 970 completely from PC, hook monitor to MoBo and use the iGPU inside the CPU. Now, iGPU is weak and it may not run most games. Still, it gives another avenue to test.

But if you go with new GPU, you need to consider your PSU and it's wattage, since GPU power draw has gone up quite a lot. Sadly, the days where 650W PSU was enough for any single GPU, are over. Currently, best GPU, RTX 4090, is rated for 600W, while it can pull ~1000W under load (transient power spikes), whereby 1600W PSU is needed to power the damn thing.

E.g if your new PSU is rated for 650W, then you're limited on which GPU you can use with it. Those include, but are not limited to: GTX 1060 (equal to your GTX 970 and what i used to have), GTX 1660 Ti (what i currently have), RTX 2070, RTX 3060 Ti, RTX 4070.

So, if you have in mind which GPU to go for, based on your budget, i can tell you how beefy of a PSU you need. Or you can go with 650W unit and be limited to what it can power.

 

[Walkers00]

Thank you for your help so far.

I did look at a power consumption calculator a few years ago and established that I needed 400-450w (so its good to see that confirmed) but I didn't trust that I had put in the correct info or I was reading it incorrectly, because I had a feeling my PSU was rubbish but it was over what I thought was needed. In light of you message I didn't appreciate that the wattage is half the battle and there is different quality of PSUs on the market.

I was actually looking at GPUs the other day and I was looking for the best quality for value card and I came to the conclusion of the GeForce RTX 3060 but again, I don't actually know if it will fit in my motherboard or case so I just left it. Now I spent some time looking into it and it seems you need a PCI express 4.0 for the card which I assume is PCIx4 that would be in the manual? If so, I don't think it fits. I think my MoBo has PCIx1 and PCIx16. But then I just read that you can fit a lower number into a higher number slot? So a PCIx4 DOES fit into a PCIx16 slot?

Now then I used some adaptive maths to your equation above you said that the chip uses 88w, the rest uses 150w so if I add the new GPU (RTX3060) which says it needs 170w under "Power consumption Operational". So 88+150+170=408 +200 for headroom = 608. So a 650w PSU should still be ok? I was thinking of just getting more watts because, why not? But based on our conversation it's probably best to get a lower watt, but higher quality PSU for the price. I was thinking of spending about £100 ($125 if you are american) on a PSU. I don't know if that is a decent amount to spend on a tidy PSU really. Just an amount of money I don't mind losing before payday next month.

If the PSU fixes my problem I won't worry about a new GPU for now but I do want to get a new GPU in the future so I am open to suggestions about a decent PSU for my needs because I am clueless when it comes to them. I know you said to read reviews, but it seems that everything I read is 5 stars, so I am obviously looking at biased reviews. I found Silverstone SST-ST70F-ES230 700W? no idea if it's any good. The part picker says its black/gold in the "colour" column. Gold seems to be a good colour to have? lol

 

[Aeacus]

In light of you message I didn't appreciate that the wattage is half the battle and there is different quality of PSUs on the market.

PSU quality is actually far greater aspect than the PSU wattage. Sure, wattage defines how beefy hardware you can run, but quality defines how long you can use your PC, be it days/months (with crap quality PSU) or easy 10+ years (with great quality PSU). Also, the worse the quality of a PSU - the higher the chance PSU failing and also the higher the chance of failed PSU frying everything it is connected to. Heck, there have even been cases where failed PSU has catched fire and burnt down entire homes. Even lives have been lost.

I was actually looking at GPUs the other day and I was looking for the best quality for value card and I came to the conclusion of the GeForce RTX 3060 but again, I don't actually know if it will fit in my motherboard or case so I just left it. Now I spent some time looking into it and it seems you need a PCI express 4.0 for the card which I assume is PCIx4 that would be in the manual? If so, I don't think it fits. I think my MoBo has PCIx1 and PCIx16. But then I just read that you can fit a lower number into a higher number slot? So a PCIx4 DOES fit into a PCIx16 slot?

I see that you've mixed up the PCI-E a bit.

With PCI-E, there are two different things;
* revision
* slot size

Revision is to do with bandwidth and is written in from of: PCI-E 1.0, PCI-E 2.0, PCI-E 3.0, PCI-E 4.0 and the latest PCI-E 5.0.
Your MoBo has PCI-E 2.0,
specs: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-H81M-S2H-rev-10/sp#sp

PCI-E revisions are backwards compatible. So, you can use PCI-E 3.0 or 4.0 GPU in your MoBo. But it would work with reduced bandwidth, since every PCI-E revision doubles the bandwidth.

Slot size is written as how many lanes the slot has. E.g PCI-E x1, PCI-E x4, PCI-E x8 or PCI-E x16.

This image shows nicely the PCI-E slot sizes;

All GPUs have PCI-E x16 slot and only fit into x16 slot. This is even true when GPU only uses 8 lanes (PCI-E x8), but it still has the physical PCI-E x16 slot. One such example would be AMD Radeon RX 7600, which uses 8 PCI-E lanes but has 16-lane slot,
specs: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7600.c4153

RTX 3060,
specs: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-3060-12-gb.c3682
is PCI-E 4.0 x16. Meaning it uses PCI-E revision 4.0 protocol and 16-lane slot.

Also, you've typed "PCIx16", which actually refers to the old, PCI protocol, predecessor of PCI-E. On the image above, you see two PCI x16 slots as well. PCI is obsolete nowadays.

When it comes to PCI-E slots, other add-in cards, e.g sound card, is usually PCI-E x1. But you can plug them into longer slot as well and they work in there too. But you can't physically plug longer slot device (e.g GPU with x16) into smaller slot (e.g into x8).
PCI-E x8 slot is very rare and hardly ever used on today's MoBos. Same goes to PCI-E x4 slot as well. Nowadays, MoBos have PCI-E x16 and PCI-E x1 slots. E.g even your MoBo has one PCI-E x16 and two PCI-E x1 slots.

Now then I used some adaptive maths to your equation above you said that the chip uses 88w, the rest uses 150w so if I add the new GPU (RTX3060) which says it needs 170w under "Power consumption Operational". So 88+150+170=408 +200 for headroom = 608. So a 650w PSU should still be ok?

Yes. For RTX 3060, 650W unit is enough.

I was thinking of just getting more watts because, why not?

Well, you can, but there are two cons;
#1 Higher wattage PSU costs more than lower wattage PSU.
#2 Loss of efficiency.

To talk about #2 more; PSUs are most efficient when load on them is 50% - 80% of their total wattage.
408W load on 650W PSU would mean 62.7% load on PSU.
Now, if you'd have 1kW (1000W) PSU, the load on PSU would be ~40%, making PSU itself less efficient. And efficiency translates into how much power PSU pulls from the wall and in turn, how much of it is wasted as excess heat.

To explain PSU's efficiency, they are rated by 80 Plus standard; whereby different levels are;
* 80+ (aka White) <- Never buy 80+ PSU since at current date, those are low/crap quality.
* 80+ Bronze <- Used to be the norm ~15 years ago. Nowadays, best to be avoided.
* 80+ Silver <- Only very few PSUs had it.
* 80+ Gold <- Current norm.
* 80+ Platinum <- Only few PSUs have it.
* 80+ Titanium <- Best there is.

Here, in efficiency calculation, i'll take my own PSU, Seasonic PRIME TX-650 80+ Titanium [SSR-650TD] as an example (btw, the best PSU money could buy at the time of purchase, back in 2016, and still, one of the best, if not the best, PSU out there).

80+ Titanium PSU has efficiency rating of:
On 20% load - 94%
On 50% load - 96%
On 100% load - 94%

So, for e.g. 400W load on my 650W unit, would be 61.5%, meaning that the PSU is 96% efficient, where only 4% of power is wasted as excess heat. Meaning that the PSU draws 416W from the wall, gives 400W to components and wastes only 16W as excess heat.

Same 400W load on 1kW PSU (e.g Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 80+ Titanium) would mean that the PSU is 94% efficient, since load on PSU would be 40%. Meaning that PSU draws 424W from the wall, gives 400W to components and wastes 24W as excess heat.

But if you'd get 1kW 80+ Gold PSU, which is the norm today (e.g Seasonic PRIME GX-1000 80+ Gold), with efficiency ratings of:
On 20% load - 90%
On 50% load - 92%
On 100% load - 89%
Would mean that on 400W load, PSU is 90% efficient. In this case, PSU pulls 440W from wall, gives 400W to components and wastes 40W as excess heat.

So, would you rather have 650W 80+ Titanium PSU, which only wastes 16W as excess heat on 400W load? Or 1kW 80+ Gold PSU, which on 400W load, wastes 40W as excess heat?
Also, while the excess heat waste numbers are small, keep in mind that they add up over the time. E.g if time advances tenfold, the excess heat numbers would be 160W vs 400W, with a diff of 240W.
Of course, 80+ Titanium PSUs cost a lot. My PSU costed me €206.80, but since i also have UPSes in use (both on my and my missus'es PCs), i can't afford loosing UPS'es runtime due to PSU's inefficiency. That, and it also adds up to electricity bill (electricity is expensive nowadays).

I was thinking of spending about £100 ($125 if you are american) on a PSU.

I live in EU (Estonia). Though, 100 quid is a bit less for proper PSU. But you could get Seasonic Focus GX-650 for it,
pcpp: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/yc38TW,RzfFf7,ZnGnTW,TN3mP6/

I also added some other Seasonic units into pcpp link (all are Tier A), including my PRIME TX-650, so you can see how much the best costs.

Seasonic Focus is good quality PSU with nice 10 years of warranty, among other things. Even i have Seasonic Focus in use, namely Seasonic Focus PX-550 80+ Platinum, powering my old AMD build (full specs with pics in my sig), while our main builds, both mine and missus'es, are powered by Seasonic PRIME TX-650 80+ Titanium PSUs.
Oh, if you go with Seasonic PRIME (any efficiency), then you get the best made by Seasonic, with mythical performance and 12 years of warranty (longest there is).

I found Silverstone SST-ST70F-ES230 700W? no idea if it's any good. The part picker says its black/gold in the "colour" column. Gold seems to be a good colour to have? lol

Looking the PSU by it's color? 🤣 It's like thinking the RGB LEDs (aka unicorn puke) in the PC adds more FPS to games.😆

Silverstone used to be good, ~20 years ago. Nowadays, Silverstone mainly makes poor PSUs. But there are some good ones as well.
That specific Silverstone unit (SST-ST70F-ES230) is low quality (Tier D) unit. Sure, better than your Corsair VS but nowhere near the level of what should be used in a PC.

Refer to the PSU Tier list i linked earlier, to know which PSUs are good and which aren't.
For any PC that has dedicated GPU, only Tier A PSU would do. If you'd have low-spec PC or office PC, then Tier B would do too. Other, lower Tiers, are best to be avoided.