[SOLVED] HELP! Upgrading/Building PC (Is it worth it?)

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Darkbreeze

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For thermals, that depends on the CPU. If you are running a Ryzen CPU, then you want to use Ryzen master. If you are running a Pre-Ryzen AMD CPU then you want to run AMD Overdrive. If you are running pretty much any generation of Intel CPU (And technically you can use this for Ryzen platforms too) you are well advised to use HWinfo. Don't confuse that with HW monitor. Here is my spiel of monitoring utilities. Sorry I didn't give you this earlier, I got sidetracked.

Monitoring software

HWmonitor, Open hardware monitor, Realtemp, Speccy, Speedfan, Windows utilities, CPU-Z, NZXT CAM and most of the bundled motherboard utilities are often not the best choice as they are not always accurate. Some are actually grossly inaccurate, especially with certain chipsets or specific sensors that for whatever reason they tend to not like or work well with. I've found HWinfo or CoreTemp to be the MOST accurate with the broadest range of chipsets and sensors. They are also almost religiously kept up to date.

CoreTemp is great for just CPU thermals including core temps or distance to TJmax on older AMD platforms.

HWinfo is great for pretty much EVERYTHING, including CPU thermals, core loads, core temps, package temps, GPU sensors, HDD and SSD sensors, motherboard chipset and VRM sensor, all of it. When starting HWinfo after installation, always check the box next to "sensors only" and de-select the box next to "summary".


Run HWinfo and look at system voltages and other sensor readings.

Monitoring temperatures, core speeds, voltages, clock ratios and other reported sensor data can often help to pick out an issue right off the bat. HWinfo is a good way to get that data and in my experience tends to be more accurate than some of the other utilities available. CPU-Z, GPU-Z and Core Temp all have their uses but HWinfo tends to have it all laid out in a more convenient fashion so you can usually see what one sensor is reporting while looking at another instead of having to flip through various tabs that have specific groupings, plus, it is extremely rare for HWinfo to not report the correct sensor values under the correct sensor listings, or misreport other information. Utilities like HWmonitor, Openhardware monitor and Speccy, tend to COMMONLY misreport sensor data, or not report it at all.

After installation, run the utility and when asked, choose "sensors only". The other window options have some use but in most cases everything you need will be located in the sensors window. If you're taking screenshots to post for troubleshooting, it will most likely require taking three screenshots and scrolling down the sensors window between screenshots in order to capture them all.

It is most helpful if you can take a series of HWinfo screenshots at idle, after a cold boot to the desktop. Open HWinfo and wait for all of the Windows startup processes to complete. Usually about four or five minutes should be plenty. Take screenshots of all the HWinfo sensors.

Next, run something demanding like Prime95 version 26.6 or Heaven benchmark. Take another set of screenshots while either of those is running so we can see what the hardware is doing while under a load.


*Download HWinfo



For temperature monitoring only, I feel Core Temp is the most accurate and also offers a quick visual reference for core speed, load and CPU voltage:


*Download Core Temp




Ryzen master for Zen or newer AMD CPUs, or Overdrive for older Pre-Ryzen platforms (AM3/AM3+/FM2/FM2+)

For monitoring on AMD Ryzen and Threadripper platforms including Zen or newer architectures, it is recommended that you use Ryzen master if for no other reason than because any updates or changes to monitoring requirements are more likely to be implemented sooner, and properly, than with other monitoring utilities. Core Temp and HWinfo are still good, with this platform, but when changes to CPU micro code or other BIOS modifications occur, or there are driver or power plan changes, it sometimes takes a while before those get implemented by 3rd party utilities, while Ryzen master, being a direct AMD product, generally gets updated immediately. Since it is also specific to the hardware in question, it can be more accurately and specifically developed without any requirement for inclusion of other architectures which won't be compatible in any case. You wouldn't use a hammer to drive a wood screw in (At least I hope not) and this is very much the same, being the right tool for the job at hand.

As far as the older AMD FX AM3+ platforms including Bulldozer and Piledriver families go, there are only two real options here. You can use Core Temp, but you will need to click on the Options menu, click Settings, click Advanced and put a check mark next to the setting that says "Show Distance to TJmax in temperature fields" and then save settings and exit the options menu system. This may or may not work for every FX platform, so using AMD Overdrive is the specific, again, right tool for the job, and recommended monitoring solution for this architecture. Since these FX platforms use "Thermal margins" rather than an actual "core/package" temp type thermal monitoring implementation, monitoring as you would with older or newer AMD platforms, or any Intel platform, won't work properly.

For more information about this, please visit here for an in depth explanation of AMD thermal margin monitoring.

Understanding AMD thermal margins for Pre-Ryzen processors





*Download Ryzen Master




*Download AMD Overdrive



Also, posting screenshots, when requested, is helpful so WE can see what is going on as well and you can learn how to do that here:

How to post images on Tom's hardware forums



Personally, I DON'T think it's worth spending the extra money for a 970 EVO when you already have a drive that likely gets just as good random performance as the 970 EVO in enough things that it doesn't much matter. Now, if you have or are getting a motherboard that supports multiple M.2 NVME drives, then yes, it could be worth it to use both NVME drives, assuming the purchase of a 970 EVO, although I'd probably opt for the 979 EVO Plus if possible because it is significantly faster in both random and sequential operations. If the price difference is more than say twenty bucks, then just stick with the 970 EVO or even the Crucial MX500, which honestly is just about as good and is usually less expensive than the Samsung drive. The MX500 is top notch as well, as you would assume, being as the parent company of Crucial is Micron, and Micron has been in the business longer than just about anybody out there when it comes to storage and memory solutions.

First though, I would recommend that you download AS SSD benchmark, run THAT, and post the results here.

Since you seem to only link to outside pages for images, I want to help you learn to post images here because it makes my life, or anybody who is helping you, much easier.

So, for images. Go to www.imgur.com . Create an account. Upload the image to your imgur account. After uploading, select the text to the right of the uploaded image that says "for direct layouts". Copy that text.

Then come here, click the image button on the formatting toolbar above your post, which sits in between the smiley face and the two chain links, and paste the code in the box that pops up. Then click ok. Now your image will be displayed here. That will work for ANY image location on the web no matter where it is hosted AS LONG as the URL ends in an image format like .jpg, .png. .bmp, etc. This is the BEST method for posting images here.

Alternatively, if you want to link to an image hosted on an imgur gallery, or anywhere that does not end in an image format, then you will have to use the "insert media" link from the drop down menu above the post in the formatting toolbar where you see the three dots in a row with a little down arrow next to them, and post the link in the box that pops up.

To get back to the BIOS, try spamming the Delete or F2 keys, whichever is normally used to access the BIOS on your motherboard, rapid fire, repeatedly, as soon as you power on the system, and keep doing so until you see the BIOS setup program. If it will not access the BIOS by doing that, and when I say start spamming the Delete key AS SOON AS YOU HIT THE POWER BUTTON, that's exactly what I mean. Power on, click, click, click, click, click, etc. continuously, until it either is obviously not going into the BIOS because Windows has begun loading, or it does go into the BIOS.

If you can not get into the BIOS after trying that method from a cold start, a few times, then you will want to reset the BIOS. That of course will mean that you will need to reconfigure any custom BIOS settings that you had assigned previously, but unfortunately that is the only way really.

You can reset the BIOS by simply powering off, switching off the power switch on the back of the PSU, removing the CMOS battery for about five minutes and then putting it all back. For a more thorough reset, for now or for future reference, this is what I recommend doing if a hard reset of the BIOS is necessary or required.



BIOS Hard Reset procedure

Power off the unit, switch the PSU off and unplug the PSU cord from either the wall or the power supply.

Remove the motherboard CMOS battery for five minutes. In some cases it may be necessary to remove the graphics card to access the CMOS battery.

During that five minutes, press the power button on the case for 30 seconds. After the five minutes is up, reinstall the CMOS battery making sure to insert it with the correct side up just as it came out.

If you had to remove the graphics card you can now reinstall it, but remember to reconnect your power cables if there were any attached to it as well as your display cable.

Now, plug the power supply cable back in, switch the PSU back on and power up the system. It should display the POST screen and the options to enter CMOS/BIOS setup. Enter the bios setup program and reconfigure the boot settings for either the Windows boot manager or for legacy systems, the drive your OS is installed on if necessary.

Save settings and exit. If the system will POST and boot then you can move forward from there including going back into the bios and configuring any other custom settings you may need to configure such as Memory XMP profile settings, custom fan profile settings or other specific settings you may have previously had configured that were wiped out by resetting the CMOS.

In some cases it may be necessary when you go into the BIOS after a reset, to load the Optimal default or Default values and then save settings, to actually get the hardware tables to reset in the boot manager.

It is probably also worth mentioning that for anything that might require an attempt to DO a hard reset in the first place, it is a GOOD IDEA to try a different type of display as many systems will not work properly for some reason with displayport configurations. It is worth trying HDMI if you are having no display or lack of visual ability to enter the BIOS, or no signal messages.




As far as any errors or freezing or restarts you might still be seeing, as it seems you mentioned that as well, testing the memory should be the first order of business anytime that starts happening, and this is how I recommend doing those initial tests if it is necessary or desired. I like to do this on ANY system I build anyhow, because I want to know sooner rather than later if there are any problems with the memory, physically, or with the configuration and compatibility. I don't want to find out there has been micro-corruption at some point down the road when it is too late and the data is all unsalvageable.

Memtest86


Go to the Passmark software website and download the USB Memtest86 free version. You can do the optical disk version too if for some reason you cannot use a bootable USB flash drive.

Create bootable media using the downloaded Memtest86 (NOT Memtest86+, that is a different, older version and is outdated). Once you have done that, go into your BIOS and configure the system to boot to the USB drive that contains the Memtest86 USB media or the optical drive if using that option.


Create a bootable USB Flash drive:

1. Download the Windows MemTest86 USB image.

2. Right click on the downloaded file and select the "Extract to Here" option. This places the USB image and imaging tool into the current folder.

3. Run the included imageUSB tool, it should already have the image file selected and you just need to choose which connected USB drive to turn into a bootable drive. Note that this will erase all data on the drive.



No memory should ever fail to pass Memtest86 when it is at the default configuration that the system sets it at when you start out or do a clear CMOS by removing the CMOS battery for five minutes.

Best method for testing memory is to first run four passes of Memtest86, all 11 tests, WITH the memory at the default configuration. This should be done BEFORE setting the memory to the XMP profile settings. The paid version has 13 tests but the free version only has tests 1-10 and test 13. So run full passes of all 11 tests. Be sure to download the latest version of Memtest86. Memtest86+ has not been updated in MANY years. It is NO-WISE as good as regular Memtest86 from Passmark software.

If there are ANY errors, at all, then the memory configuration is not stable. Bumping the DRAM voltage up slightly may resolve that OR you may need to make adjustments to the primary timings. There are very few secondary or tertiary timings that should be altered. I can tell you about those if you are trying to tighten your memory timings.

If you cannot pass Memtest86 with the memory at the XMP configuration settings then I would recommend restoring the memory to the default JEDEC SPD of 1333/2133mhz (Depending on your platform and memory type) with everything left on the auto/default configuration and running Memtest86 over again. If it completes the four full passes without error you can try again with the XMP settings but first try bumping the DRAM voltage up once again by whatever small increment the motherboard will allow you to increase it by. If it passes, great, move on to the Prime95 testing.

If it still fails, try once again bumping the voltage if you are still within the maximum allowable voltage for your memory type and test again. If it still fails, you are likely going to need more advanced help with configuring your primary timings and should return the memory to the default configuration until you can sort it out.

If the memory will not pass Memtest86 for four passes when it IS at the stock default non-XMP configuration, even after a minor bump in voltage, then there is likely something physically wrong with one or more of the memory modules and I'd recommend running Memtest on each individual module, separately, to determine which module is causing the issue. If you find a single module that is faulty you should contact the seller or the memory manufacturer and have them replace the memory as a SET. Memory comes matched for a reason as I made clear earlier and if you let them replace only one module rather than the entire set you are back to using unmatched memory which is an open door for problems with incompatible memory.

Be aware that you SHOULD run Memtest86 to test the memory at the default, non-XMP, non-custom profile settings BEFORE ever making any changes to the memory configuration so that you will know if the problem is a setting or is a physical problem with the memory.


This might also be helpful in that regard, if you ever have to or are, dealing with memory issues.


 

KrEnX47

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Holy damn dude, you're amazing! That will definitely be helpful, I didn't expect that much detailed help, but that's so much appreciated, thank you, I've been looking to understand a bit more about this things.


I've downloaded HWInfo, I found out I already had it on my system since september, I dont even remember it haha.
Anyways, would that do? Or is posting 10 pictures one by one better for you guys?
HWInfo-ColdBoot (Fresh boot from 30min cool-off)
HWInfo-UnderLoad (Running Heaven Benchmark)

I'll test memory soon, but now that you've mentioned, I do remember I've had 2x4 GB of my current memory for a year back in... idk 2012? Dont remember, and I bought the same one of another 2x4GB later on. But was very happy with PC for all the years tho, didn't have any real issues. But will definitely pay attention to this now.
But what do I do if I want new ram in future then? Like lets say I buy this TridentZ Neos with 2x16, and in 2-3 years I wanna double it to get 64 rams, if buying same ones still is an issue how do you properly upgrade them other than selling current ones and re-buying 4x16 in a pack?


Here's the benchmark with AS SSD for my SX8200:


And about 970 Evo, I will have two slots for m.2 disk on my new motherboard yes but I'm not buying 970 evo extra, I'll be using my other SSD until it's lifetime is done, it's about at 57%. But doesn't having two m.2 ssd's take something away? I can't remember what it was but I remember I read somewhere that something gets lowered if you have two m.2 on your board.

Also I asked you for a NEW build for my sibling, that PC will be built from bottom up, why I asked if I should go to 970 for a 70euro difference, or get the cheaper SX8200 like I have.
As SX8200 is 140€ and 970 Evo is 210€.


And about BIOS, so far I tried once, spamming F2 and DEL like hell and nothing happened, so I'll try get in to it using methods you listed me later on once I have a new PC built in case I mess it up, I can't be without PC :p

It is probably also worth mentioning that for anything that might require an attempt to DO a hard reset in the first place, it is a GOOD IDEA to try a different type of display as many systems will not work properly for some reason with displayport configurations. It is worth trying HDMI if you are having no display or lack of visual ability to enter the BIOS, or no signal messages.
I already am on HDMI cable, goes from my screen directly to GPU.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
On SOME boards, using two, or even one, M.2 drive, might disable one or two of the SATA drive headers. Usually, that's not a problem because most of them come with four or six of those anyhow and most users are not running 8 drives. It depends on the board. I can look at that whenever you make up your mind on what board for sure you plan to go with.

For the siblings M.2 drive, like I said, that's mainly up to budget. Generally speaking if you stick to Samsung 970 series, Crucial P1 series, Intel 660p or 760p or one of the Western digital drives, you'll be fine. Even what you have now is ok. You're honestly not going to notice much difference in performance for gaming using an NVME drive over a standard SATA SSD, so any of them, as long as they are good enough quality to last a while, should be fine.

Did you replace your PSU yet? Because in that screenshot you posted of the HWinfo sensors your 5v rail is showing at only 4.77v which is ALMOST at the discard voltage of 4.75v. I can't remember if you replaced that already or not.
 

KrEnX47

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On SOME boards, using two, or even one, M.2 drive, might disable one or two of the SATA drive headers. Usually, that's not a problem because most of them come with four or six of those anyhow and most users are not running 8 drives. It depends on the board. I can look at that whenever you make up your mind on what board for sure you plan to go with.

For the siblings M.2 drive, like I said, that's mainly up to budget. Generally speaking if you stick to Samsung 970 series, Crucial P1 series, Intel 660p or 760p or one of the Western digital drives, you'll be fine. Even what you have now is ok. You're honestly not going to notice much difference in performance for gaming using an NVME drive over a standard SATA SSD, so any of them, as long as they are good enough quality to last a while, should be fine.

Did you replace your PSU yet? Because in that screenshot you posted of the HWinfo sensors your 5v rail is showing at only 4.77v which is ALMOST at the discard voltage of 4.75v. I can't remember if you replaced that already or not.
Nope, I'm rebuilding mine in a new case, just gonna take GPU and the drives out. So no point in mounting a new PSU here if I'll be selling this PC, i'll put my old GTX 970 in, make sure everything is working and sell.

I decided for Pro Carbon board. Here's my my current list now:

For Sibling:
GPU: (RTX 2070 AORUS SUPER) - 650€
CPU: (Ryzen 3700X) - 339€
PSU: (Corsair RM750X) - 115€
MB: (MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon) - 129€
SSD: (ADATA XPG SX8200) - 142€ or (970 EVO plus) - 210€
RAM: (G.Skill Trident Z Neo 3600Mhz 2x16GB) - 180€
CASE: -Undecided-
Monitor:
(Asus PG278QR) - 589€
Headset: (Razer Kraken Kitty Edition) - 170€ 194€ (Looks like price went up :rolleyes:)
Side-question, in case you're familiar with headsets as well, what kind of audio does it have, all I see is THX Spatial Audio, but never heard of it, so no clue if it's stereo or 7.1 but reviews said they think it's one of the best headsets and knowing my sibling once she sticks her mind in to some special version for her like this, it's hard to convince her for something else, so hoping it's the good pick quality-wise :p.

For Myself:
CPU:
(Ryzen 3700X) - 353€
PSU: (Corsair RM750X) - 126€
MB: (MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon) - 154€
RAM: (G.Skill Trident Z Neo 3600Mhz 2x16GB) - 198€
CASE: -Undecided-
Monitor:
(Asus PG278QR) - 657€

We live in different countries why the price difference. I got stuff more expensive here sadly.
If you want you can check each link so I didn't by any chance pick a wrong item that has same name but it's a cheap copy or something, I attached links to all names.

So basically, all I need is a case now and I'm set :p
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Not familiar with gaming headsets. The only headphones I know I can pretty well recommend without reservation are most of those made by Sennheiser. The Sennheiser HD 4.50 are excellent for a wireless headphone. I know nothing about the Razer headphones.

Those all look fine. I'd just go with the SX8200 on his build unless he really has the extra money to throw at it, and then go for the 970 Evo Plus if he does. It's really not even all that necessary to be honest. It won't have ANY effect on FPS when gaming. The ONLY thing it is going to effect unless you are transferring TO and FROM another M.2 drive of equal speed, is loading maps, levels or game files, boot times and random read operations for windows processes and programs.

IN the actual game itself, it will have no effect, offer no benefit, over a regular 2.5" SATA SSD. None. It will be exactly the same. It is nice to eliminate one additional drive and the extra cables needed for it, so for aesthetics it's beneficial. It will not however make any difference at all in gaming performance unless you consider how long it takes to load game files, maps and levels part of the equation when it comes to "performance".

On the case, I'm afraid I might not be much help because I'm pretty consistently AGAINST most of the old school cases. They just don't offer the same level of support for advanced cooling systems like 140mm fans in the front and top (And on really good cases, the rear) fan locations, no where near the same level of cable management features such as width of the space on the backside of the motherboard tray, number of cable pass throughs (And convenient placement of them) with grommets, support for large CPU coolers or radiators, tool free drive cage removal and support for installing drives on the back of the motherboard tray out of the way of the air path through the case for the cooling system.

Of the cases that were popular from beyond three years ago, I'd probably most recommend the Corsair Carbide Air 540 or something similar. I really think the Meshify S2 is hard to beat right now in terms of price, features and performance.
 

KrEnX47

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haha what the hell is that


My sibling (it's a she), likes new modern cases so that's no issues here, loves glass and lights so feel free to give best recommendations, but highest wish is to have top and front openings for best airflows. With a chance of installing top fans extra if there's none on the case itself.
So far the Meshify S2 she likes a lot so if we can't find anything better we'll most likely get her that one. But I'm not sure if it has room for top fans?

For the drives, yes the game loading time is important to us, so how big of a difference is it betwen 970 and SX8200?
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
It has room for SEVEN 140mm fans, but I recommend using only five. Three in the front as intake, on in the rear as exhaust and another in the top-rear location as exhaust, not including the PSU or CPU cooler of course. If you go with a liquid cooler then those front intake fans will be replaced by the radiator and it's fans. Those are an additional purchase, since it only comes with one or two fans preinstalled and they are not particularly terrific fans, but they are not junk either so they can certainly be used if you choose to and don't prefer to have all fans be identical like I do or use them in another build somewhere.

It's not that big of a difference, honestly. Can you say you can really tell the difference between something taking 5 seconds to load or taking 4 seconds? Are you willing to pay an extra 74 Euros to gain maybe a second on loading and boot times? If you can afford it, the Samsung 970 series is the better drive, but as far as initial times are concerned the differences are probably not something you will ever REALLY notice. It's faster, it will last longer most likely and it is built using better components. It also likely is less prone to throttling the controller by design. Those are reasons to consider it, but if the money can be used to benefit some other area of the build, then it probably makes more sense to do that. Get a better PSU. Get better case fans. Get a better CPU cooler. Get a better motherboard. These are tangible things that you can experience and appreciate. The drive, may or may not be.
 

KrEnX47

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Or get nothing better and save money where you can :p. But stuff were already picked at best price and worthy choise, I guess nothing else is worth going for or you think I should go for something better? I'm pretty much set atm, just looking for a case.

And right now I'm wondering if this is worth an extra 100 euros:
Fractal Design Define S2 Vision RGB
As I said my sibling likes RGB, but if it's not much difference from just the regular Fractal Design Meshify S2 I dont think we'll go for that one.


Edit:
For myself... I still can't get past any of H500 cases, just not sure which one of them should be a best pick, cooling wise. Tho not sure if any of those can beat the Trooper SE so not sure what are the real benefits of going for a newer case if old one can still do a good job.
 
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Darkbreeze

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If you want RGB lighting, you can get it a LOT cheaper than 100 Euros, with a third party package like the NZXT Hue 2 or something else. I'd just get the regular case and either a third party RGB light strip kit or nothing at all.

The trooper SE is a decent choice, IF you like it. It's not that modern, but it has most of the features, being an early example of a case that began incorporating a lot of the features we see in some of the better cases these days, such as radiator support all around, even for large radiators, support for rear 140mm exhaust fan (Most cases only support 120mm fan in the rear exhaust fan location), 2x 140mm front fan support, 2 x140mm top fan support, support for CPU coolers up to 186mm tall, nice tempered glass, full front panel airflow with no restrictions.

You could do a lot worse for a case if you like the looks of that one. I'm not sure it has great cable management features, and I think you are somewhat limited in the amount of space in the small chamber on the backside of the motherboard tray, but we built systems in cases with little room back there for years so it should be workable at worst, better than a lot of other cases at best.

I have a Cooler master Storm Enforcer that I used for a few years sitting on the shelf in here, and it is older than the Trooper SE, and I will probably use it again for something in the future, so that Trooper should be ok for you if you are inclined to go with it.
 

KrEnX47

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If you want RGB lighting, you can get it a LOT cheaper than 100 Euros, with a third party package like the NZXT Hue 2 or something else. I'd just get the regular case and either a third party RGB light strip kit or nothing at all.

The trooper SE is a decent choice, IF you like it. It's not that modern, but it has most of the features, being an early example of a case that began incorporating a lot of the features we see in some of the better cases these days, such as radiator support all around, even for large radiators, support for rear 140mm exhaust fan (Most cases only support 120mm fan in the rear exhaust fan location), 2x 140mm front fan support, 2 x140mm top fan support, support for CPU coolers up to 186mm tall, nice tempered glass, full front panel airflow with no restrictions.

You could do a lot worse for a case if you like the looks of that one. I'm not sure it has great cable management features, and I think you are somewhat limited in the amount of space in the small chamber on the backside of the motherboard tray, but we built systems in cases with little room back there for years so it should be workable at worst, better than a lot of other cases at best.

I have a Cooler master Storm Enforcer that I used for a few years sitting on the shelf in here, and it is older than the Trooper SE, and I will probably use it again for something in the future, so that Trooper should be ok for you if you are inclined to go with it.
Yes Trooper seems most tempting for me, but was only asking if there are any real benefits of spending more for a H500M for example, it also looks amazing and it's not 100% blocked with glass in front so might be better for cooling than previous versions. So i'd go for that if it's actually worth it so I have something more modern.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Honestly, I think they are both fine. Unless there is a specific feature of the H500M that gives you wood, I think I'd just stick with the Trooper SE if you like it, because it has pretty much all the makings required for a good case with good performance other than like most cases it doesn't come with enough fans preinstalled. But that's everybody. If you want good cooling you have to add fans. No way around that really.

But the H500M is, unlike a lot of CM cases, a fairly decent unit and it does have decent features. I'm not sure it's worth however much extra it is over the Trooper SE.
 

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