Help Verify My Upgrade Specs

[mozzartusm]

A. Electronics and liquid don't mix, and i don't trust myself not to spill, it seems way way way too risky to me

Thats not always correct. There are liquids that arent good conductors of electricty. A motherboard can be submerged in certain liquids. I do understand what your saying though.

B. It's too expensive. If i go liquid i'll either have to get a PSU that's liquid cooled, or get an external liquid cooling system for the processor only, and either way that's over $250-350. Not to mention i'd probably have to get a new case. That's just way too much money. i'm over budget as it is.

What are you talking about? You can use the same PSU either way. You dont have to buy a special case either. You keep saying that you have done all this research, but you havent done near enough. Like I said earlier, you have made up your mind so go ahead.

Your numbers are no where close to correct on the liquid cooling. Maybe you could spend that much, but you dont have to. I tried to tell you that it wouldnt cost more than around $80.00 so where you came up with $250.00-$350.00 I have no idea. If you took the money that you would have spent on the 770 heatsink and put it towards the liquid cooler then it would only cost around $80.00 Its not that complicated! Cost of Zalman ($50.00) Cost of Themaltake Cooling system ($150.00) You dont add them together because you would have one or the other not both. No need to respond, I was just clearing those numbers that you posted up so they didnt confuse others.

 

[Lazerous]

Post titled: Help Verify My Upgrade Specs

Should be be renamed to: I don't need any help, my mind is like a steel trap.


hehehehe

 

[mozzartusm]

Thats what I was thinking! LMAO

 

[endyen]

More like "Bragging about what I can Buy". He forgot to mention the sticker that says "Intel inside, Idiot outside", but when people smerk when he mentions his system, and what he uses it for, he will know that they know what we already know, ah, but I just dont know.

 

[Lazerous]

But still.....

nothing like the smell of roasted p4 in the morning.....



AMD 64 3700+,ASUS K8N-E Deluxe-250gb,1.5 gb PC3200,Gigabyte GeForce 6800gt 256mb,Audigy 2 ZS , 2-36.7gb 10,000 rpm Raptors/Raid 0, Thermaltake butterfly 480 watt PSU , + asst. other amenities.....

 

[Logicsequence]

OK, the blatant and vulgar flaming that you people just shot at me was not only uncalled for, but it was rude, discourteous, and offensive.

I was trying to get real advice on this matter, and trying to state my side of the argument and my reasoning as well. Yet people like mozzartusm, lazerous, and endyen seem more interested in debasing and degrading me and my opinions with their undignified attacks, than offering any real help. I didn't start lobbing insults and mockery at you, why is it fair for you to do that to me?

I said at the very start of this thread that I was making this an Intel system, and that I wanted everyone to know that so people wouldn't start a pro-AMD flaming war, yet you seem intent on making that happen by ragging on me for choosing the P4. And your accusations that I’m trying in some way to brag about "what I can buy" are just plain WRONG, and you would know that if you had bothered to ask about it in a polite way.

And endyen, you calling me an idiot was the most rude and offensive statement of them all. If you have a problem then I suggest you state your case and stop resorting to childish grade school name calling.

If you people spent more time suggesting and supporting your arguments than taunting and teasing like third graders, maybe people would take your opinions more seriously.

 

[mozzartusm]

Im not trying to start an AMD vs Intel war. I just finished building an Intel P4 775. You asked for input, and some of us gave you input. You ask for it when you repeatedly state that you have done alot of research, and then you make statements that are not based on any credible research. As far as people taking us serious, if I spend time trying to help someone, and they ignore or refuse to think about what I have said then I am not going to take them anymore serious than they are taking me. You didnt hear exactly what you wanted to hear so you are now mad at us. If you read back through your post and allow yourself to be objective then you may catch onto what I am talking about. Your post has been looked at quite a few times, maybe if you would have been a little more open minded then you might have gotten more replys from different people. I guess you will think that I am flaming you by saying all of this.

 

[georgebeee]

I believe that liquids that aren't good conductors also aren't good coolers.

 

[endyen]

I suggest you re-read my post, in a less defensive mode.
If you took offense, I apologize. It was ment stricktly in humour.
As far as the sticker goes, it is what was implied by the Intel people who wrote the original.
There are many valid reasons to buy Intel now. The parts you have chosen should make a great system. I am sure you will be happy.

 

[pat]

"There are many valid reasons to buy Intel now."

Such as?

nah! just kidding!

-Always put the blame on you first, then on the hardware !!!

 

[Lazerous]

Ya' know.....
Some people here given you some very valuable advice and some very positive suggestions. If you can actually see the nose in front of your face(so to speak) you will see that you threw it right back at 'em. You had your mind made up before you made this post or surely you would have exhibited a modicum of humility and at least accepted their advice with grace. If you felt like you were being attacked because of your choices then maybe you should have just stuck with them and not asked for advice but in that you asked for it, people gave it. I still believe you were more looking for a pat on the back rather than useful advice.

Anger management classes starting Wednesday, January 5th 2005.......

AMD 64 3700+,ASUS K8N-E Deluxe-250gb,1.5 gb PC3200,Gigabyte GeForce 6800gt 256mb,Audigy 2 ZS , 2-36.7gb 10,000 rpm Raptors/Raid 0, Thermaltake butterfly 480 watt PSU , + asst. other amenities.....

 

[mozzartusm]

As soon as I can find someone that has a descent video cam that I borrow for a couple of hours, I am going to post something interesting that I have been playing around with for a couple of months. There are a couple of different liquids that do a very good job of cooling. Just curious though, why do you think otherwise? Im serious, that is a legit question, im not taking a shot at you. Im just wondering if you have had some bad experience with liquid.

 

[mozzartusm]

Anger management classes starting Wednesday, January 5th 2005.......

That is funny to me because I am a grad student in Psychology. I have actually moderated group anger management in the past. My biggest problem was keeping my temper in check

 

[georgebeee]

I didn't say liquids don't cool well, I said that liquids that don't conduct well don't cool well.

you know how you have to add anti-freeze to your radiator so it will not freeze?, also so it will cool your car better. distilled water isn't a conductor, it also doesn't cool well

that's what I meant. a liquid that doesn't behave well as a conductor, also won't behave well as a coolant

 

[mozzartusm]

I gotcha now, sorry about the confusion.

 

[endyen]

Dont get thermal conductivity confused with electrical conductivity. Pure water is a much better thermal conductor than it is an electrical conductor. Electrical conduction requires valence electrons in the 7th ring, thermal conduction is based on the oscilation of the entire atom. Big difference.

 

[georgebeee]

"For metals, the thermal conductivity is quite high, and those metals which are the best electrical conductors are also the best thermal conductors."
<A HREF="http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/thercond.html" target="_new">clicky</A>

"Metals are much better thermal conductors than non-metals because the same mobile electrons which participate in electrical conduction also take part in the transfer of heat."

same link as above, and next is what you were talking about, vibration of atoms or molecules

"For non-metallic solids, the heat transfer is view as being transferred via lattice vibrations, as atoms vibrating more energetically at one part of a solid transfer that energy to less energetic neighboring atoms. This can be enhanced by cooperative motion in the form of propagating lattice waves, which in the quantum limit are quantized as phonons. Practically, there is so much variability for non-metallic solids that we normally just characterize the substance with a measured thermal conductivity when doing ordinary calculations."

but I believe they are talking about solids there. and pure water is not a very good thermal conductor. when you put water with various salts, minerals and chlorine in your radiator it still isn't the best coolant, you have to mix it close to 50% with antifreeze. if I remember right the solvents give the water a similar effect to the same loose electrons as you have in metals.

so, it would appear depending on what you're talking about there is a relationship between thermal conductivity and electrical conductivity

 

[mozzartusm]

Pure water is a much better thermal conductor than it is an electrical conductor.

If im reading this right, all he was saying is that Water is much better as a thermal conduction medium than it is as an electrical conduction medium. This is correct BTW.

 

[endyen]

Just FYI, heat transfer in fluids is called convection.
The electrical conductivity of pure water is nil. Convection in water, is quite good, and is not improved with additives.
The primary function of antifreeze, is to keep water a liquid under a wide temperature range.
Addatives in a water cooling system cause erosion, pitting, and deposits. Because of this, most serious water cooling freaks prefer distilled water.
The primary advantage to water cooling over metal cooling, is the mass that can be brought into contact with the source, and them moved away for cooling.
The big reason I dont use water, is because while the water is a poor conductor, as soon as it leaks, it picks up a lot of carbon based dust, which makes it a great conductor, very quickly.

 

[georgebeee]

why don't you try telling that to a mechanic, that anti-freeze doesn't help with water's cooling. either that or do some research to see just how mistaken you actually are.

didn't you even go to that link I provided? it said non-metals are NOT good coolers because of the way they transfer heat. you're not arguing logic, you insist on being right, even when you are wrong.

 

[fishmahn]

Umm, I've always been told by mechanics and people in the know that water is better at cooling than antifreeze. The reason you add coolant is to do 2 things: 1) antifreeze. Etylene glycol in a 50/50 mix lowers the freezing point to around -30f. 2) anti-boil. Same mix raises boiling point to about 255f.

links and quotes:

<A HREF="http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redtech3.htm" target="_new">http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redtech3.htm</A>

THERMAL PROPERTIES
Water has amazingly superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid cooling medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in Table 1, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal conductivity compared to glycol coolants.

There's a table of thermal properties just below that paragraph.

<A HREF="http://www.techshop-ets.com/ts604/ts60424.htm" target="_new">http://www.techshop-ets.com/ts604/ts60424.htm</A>

Increasing the concentration of either type of antifreeze will raise the boiling protection and lower the freezing protection. Even so, the maximum concentration of antifreeze should not exceed 70% because too much antifreeze and not enough water reduces the coolant's ability to carry heat,

<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/ia2/vmax/coolantnotes.htm" target="_new">http://www.angelfire.com/ia2/vmax/coolantnotes.htm</A>

Why use a Coolant?
----The main purpose of mixing glycol with water is to lower the freezing point and to raise the boiling point of the coolant mixture. Glycol also improves
the anti-corrosion properties of the water. But glycol affects the heat transfer characteristics adversely, to a small extent. Pure ethylene glycol has a thermal conductivity coefficient only 40% that of water.

It seems that these are reliable sources of information. If you'ld like I can research further.

Mike.

 

[georgebeee]

guess I remembered that wrong.

 

[Cybercraig]

We must have a bunch of kids here. Water is just fine in an engine cooling system in Hawaii with the addition of one thing: water pump lubricant. Antifreeze lubricates also along with raising the boiling point and lowering the freezing point. Water is a terrible lubricant.

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[endyen]

Gee Craig, you are usually more on the ball than that. Most waterpump berring are sealed. What you mean, I think, is anti-oxident, to keep the parts from oxidation. I wouldn't want to run a car in Hawaii without some antifreeze though, as most vehicles will suffer vapour lock, any time the environmental temps rise above 85f (30c).

 

[Logicsequence]

Now that things have calmed down a little...

-->ASSUMING<-- I decide to go down the liquid cooling rout, what rig should i get? I have almost NO room inside my case for a radiator or pump, so i'm guessing it would have to be external. That left me looking at Thermaltake's Aquarius III. Yes? No? Alternatives?