Question High-end 870 or 890 for a unique system

[thegreatdelcamo]

Okay MB experts… Big Golf Simulator…

Talking about 890 or 870. With at least

1. 10 USB ports on rear, ideally 14 (I need at least 12, but can use internal connectors to add a 4-port extension.)
2. Two PCIe 5.0 slots that will run 8x8 (will run a 4080 Super on top, a 4070ti on bottom.)
3. Another PCIe 4.0 slot for a POE card running two high-speed swing cameras.

Ideally, the lower GPU will not crowd out the bottom PCIe 4 slot (I’m looking at you, ProArt 870?) But if it does, I need to find a way to mount everything.

I would go Intel 890, and the ROG Maximus z890 Apex looks really good, meeting all my criteria (the 4.0 slots being wisely placed above the 5.0 slots). My only concern: it is Intel, which brings two issues—one, the company is in serious trouble, and two, the new chips underwhelm. Still, I like the lower power, and arguably for GSPro, which is GPU driven, so maybe I don’t need a “gaming” monster…

Thoughts?

 

[littlepony]

890's would have an advantage over the other

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

890's would have an advantage over the other

Thanks for the comment. Would you be willing to provide your reasoning? Are you speaking in general or with respect to a specific MB?

 

[QyInvoLing]

Thanks for the comment. Would you be willing to provide your reasoning? Are you speaking in general or with respect to a specific MB?

Generally, z890 chipset provides more PCIe lanes, and ultra200s provides Lightning5 controller by itself, while AMD's x870=b650e+usb4(consuming 4x PCIe lanes), x870e=x670e+usb4(consuming 4x PCIe lanes).
Meanwhile, ultra200s cpus are not that powerful as ryzen9000.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

Generally, z890 chipset provides more PCIe lanes, and ultra200s provides Lightning5 controller by itself, while AMD's x870=b650e+usb4(consuming 4x PCIe lanes), x870e=x670e+usb4(consuming 4x PCIe lanes).
Meanwhile, ultra200s cpus are not that powerful as ryzen9000.

Ah... That is relevant information. I just had Copilot make a chart for me. I'd written Intel I-9 chips off for a number of reasons, but importantly because they only had 16 5.0 lanes...

This would explain why I see so many more USB ports on the Intel boards. So, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

PCIe 5.0 Lanes (CPU) PCIe 4.0 Lanes (CPU) PCIe 4.0 Lanes (Chipset) Total PCIe Lanes

Intel Core Ultra Chip	24	0	20	44
Intel Core i9 Series	16	4	24	44
AMD Ryzen 9000 Series	24	0	12	36

Summary​

• Intel Core Ultra Chip: Offers a total of 44 PCIe lanes (24 PCIe 5.0 + 20 PCIe 4.0).
• Intel Core i9 Series: Also offers a total of 44 PCIe lanes but allocates them differently (16 PCIe 5.0 + 4 PCIe 4.0 from CPU + 24 PCIe 4.0 from chipset).
• AMD Ryzen 9000 Series: Offers 36 PCIe lanes (24 PCIe 5.0 from CPU + 12 PCIe 4.0 from chipset).

 

[QyInvoLing]

Ah... That is relevant information. I just had Copilot make a chart for me. I'd written Intel I-9 chips off for a number of reasons, but importantly because they only had 16 5.0 lanes...

This would explain why I see so many more USB ports on the Intel boards. So, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

PCIe 5.0 Lanes (CPU) PCIe 4.0 Lanes (CPU) PCIe 4.0 Lanes (Chipset) Total PCIe Lanes

Intel Core Ultra Chip	24	0	20	44
Intel Core i9 Series	16	4	24	44
AMD Ryzen 9000 Series	24	0	12	36

Summary​

• Intel Core Ultra Chip: Offers a total of 44 PCIe lanes (24 PCIe 5.0 + 20 PCIe 4.0).
• Intel Core i9 Series: Also offers a total of 44 PCIe lanes but allocates them differently (16 PCIe 5.0 + 4 PCIe 4.0 from CPU + 24 PCIe 4.0 from chipset).
• AMD Ryzen 9000 Series: Offers 36 PCIe lanes (24 PCIe 5.0 from CPU + 12 PCIe 4.0 from chipset).

Besides, most non-usb4/lightning5 usb ports are offered by chipsets.
Why do you need PCIe5.0x8 for 40-series graphics card? These cards doesn't support them, the only graphic card support PCIe 5.0 is Moorethread's MTT S80.

 

[QyInvoLing]

Maybe the Biostar x870e valkyrie is your best choice.

For your two graphics card and one POE card:
- It offers a PCIe5.0x16 divided into 2x PCIe5.0x8 in slot2 and slot5, which is capable for your 4080s&4070ti.
- Additionally, there's a PCIe4.0x16(actually 4.0x4, physically x16) on the slot7, which is capable for your POE card. If your 4070ti is a two-slot card, it's perfect for you.
Installing the POE card will disable the M2 slot above the bottom PCIex16 slot, remaining three M2 slots.

The only problem is that it only offers 8xUSBA+2xUSB4TypeC, maybe you can use a hub for extra usb ports.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

Besides, most non-usb4/lightning5 usb ports are offered by chipsets.
Why do you need PCIe5.0x8 for 40-series graphics card? These cards doesn't support them, the only graphic card support PCIe 5.0 is Moorethread's MTT S80.

Well, since I wanted to use two GPUs to power my monitors, I figured that two 5.0 slots running at 8 would not be saturated by either my 4080 Super or the 4070Ti. That card is the MSI Ventus 3X Geforce.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

Maybe the Biostar x870e valkyrie is your best choice.

For your two graphics card and one POE card:
- It offers a PCIe5.0x16 divided into 2x PCIe5.0x8 in slot2 and slot5, which is capable for your 4080s&4070ti.
- Additionally, there's a PCIe4.0x16(actually 4.0x4, physically x16) on the slot7, which is capable for your POE card. If your 4070ti is a two-slot card, it's perfect for you.
Installing the POE card will disable the M2 slot above the bottom PCIex16 slot, remaining three M2 slots.

The only problem is that it only offers 8xUSBA+2xUSB4TypeC, maybe you can use a hub for extra usb ports.

I'm not worried about losing an M2 slot, so long as I have the option to run one at 5.0 and one other at 4.0. But my card 4070Ti is triple slot.

What do you think of the ROG Maximus Z890 Apex? OR the 890 ProArt? On the Maximus, the GPU slots are below the 4.0 slots, which are not blocked. And it looks like the ProArt 4.0 slot is maybe 3 slots below the lower GPU...

I REALLY appreciate your help! Thank you!

 

[QyInvoLing]

Well, since I wanted to use two GPUs to power my monitors, I figured that two 5.0 slots running at 8 would not be saturated by either my 4080 Super or the 4070Ti. That card is the MSI Ventus 3X Geforce.

What do you mean of "power monitors"? The intergrated 2CU RNDA2 gpu of Ryzen 7000&9000 series could "power" a 3840x2160@120hz monitor for non-gaming tasks, so, I think PCIe4.0x8's bandwith will not be the bottleneck.

I'm not worried about losing an M2 slot, so long as I have the option to run one at 5.0 and one other at 4.0. But my card 4070Ti is triple slot.

What do you think of the ROG Maximus Z890 Apex? OR the 890 ProArt? On the Maximus, the GPU slots are below the 4.0 slots, which are not blocked. And it looks like the ProArt 4.0 slot is maybe 3 slots below the lower GPU...

I REALLY appreciate your help! Thank you!

No, these two cards will only work on 4.0x8 , not 5.0x8, as they don't support PCIe5.0.

ProArt z890 offers three PCIe slot, the first one shares x16 with the second one, it's fine, but the distance between the second slot and the third slot are only two slots, which means that you could't put your 3-slot 4070ti on the second slot.
Apex z890 doesn't have this problem, you can install your 4080s&4070ti into the two metal-enforced PCIe5.0 slot, then install your POE card into the remaining PCIex4 slot, but it has some other PCIe-distribution problem.
According to asus, " M.2_3 & M.2_4 share bandwidth with PCIEX16(G5)_2. When M.2_3 is enabled, PCIEX16(G5)_1 will run x8 & PCIEX16(G5)_2 will run x4. When M.2_3 & M.2_4 are enabled, PCIEX16(G5)_1 will run x8 & PCIEX16(G5)_2 will disabled.". You don't care about the M2 slots, but be careful, don't use M.2_3 and M.2_4 slots.
The true problem is, once you installed your three-slot 4070ti on the bottom metal-enforced slot, the plugs between the slot will be blocked by the thick card, and it's obvious that you may pick a case which allows the card to overflow the bottom of the motherboard, as the bottom slot is too near to the bottom of the motherboard.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

What do you mean of "power monitors"? The intergrated 2CU RNDA2 gpu of Ryzen 7000&9000 series could "power" a 3840x2160@120hz monitor for non-gaming tasks, so, I think PCIe4.0x8's bandwith will not be the bottleneck.

I am referring to the GPU providing video data to the monitor. I realize the GPU is not providing electrical power to the monitor. It was a poor choice of words!

No, these two cards will only work on 4.0x8 , not 5.0x8, as they don't support PCIe5.0.

Each card will have half of the available bandwidth. Right?

ProArt z890 offers three PCIe slot, the first one shares x16 with the second one, it's fine, but the distance between the second slot and the third slot are only two slots, which means that you could't put your 3-slot 4070ti on the second slot.
Apex z890 doesn't have this problem, you can install your 4080s&4070ti into the two metal-enforced PCIe5.0 slot, then install your POE card into the remaining PCIex4 slot, but it has some other PCIe-distribution problem.
According to asus, " M.2_3 & M.2_4 share bandwidth with PCIEX16(G5)_2. When M.2_3 is enabled, PCIEX16(G5)_1 will run x8 & PCIEX16(G5)_2 will run x4. When M.2_3 & M.2_4 are enabled, PCIEX16(G5)_1 will run x8 & PCIEX16(G5)_2 will disabled.". You don't care about the M2 slots, but be careful, don't use M.2_3 and M.2_4 slots.

Right. I had studied that. Thanks for the note!

The true problem is, once you installed your three-slot 4070ti on the bottom metal-enforced slot, the plugs between the slot will be blocked by the thick card, and it's obvious that you may pick a case which allows the card to overflow the bottom of the motherboard, as the bottom slot is too near to the bottom of the motherboard.

Are you saying that a plug I may need will be covered by the 4070Ti card? Hmm... I'm not sure what to do. This is frustrating...

Might I be able to use a riser cable and install the 4070Ti in some other way?

 

[Eximo]

I think you are confused in general.

Why do you want two graphics cards exactly? Can you utilize two with some rendering or something? (If so, PCIe bandwidth really doesn't matter for such tasks, you are more storage constrained at that point)

The others are right, most motherboards no longer have the spacing for dual GPUs (since that concept is mostly obsolete), and 40 series cards are PCIe 4.0. 4.0 8x is plenty for most GPUs under all circumstances.

Also seeing a lot of references to Lightning ports. The term is Thunderbolt. Lightning is Apple's version of the same technology. Intel has Thunderbolt 4 capability, if you pay for it. AMD has put USB 4 on their X870 boards, and some X670 boards. This technically supports Thunderbolt 3 as well, though AMD can't actually say that.

Unless you already have the 4080 Super, now would be a good time to wait out for the 50 series launch. Pick up a 5080 or the 32GB 5090 if you want to maximize performance.

I understand you want to use a PoE network adapter from the host PC? Why not just get a PoE switch or router and get a motherboard that supports 10 or 5 Gbps depending on your needs?

 

[QyInvoLing]

I am referring to the GPU providing video data to the monitor. I realize the GPU is not providing electrical power to the monitor. It was a poor choice of words!

Each card will have half of the available bandwidth. Right?

Right. I had studied that. Thanks for the note!

Are you saying that a plug I may need will be covered by the 4070Ti card? Hmm... I'm not sure what to do. This is frustrating...

Might I be able to use a riser cable and install the 4070Ti in some other way?

The first question: even ryzen 7000series cpus' 2CU rdna2 igpu could supply a 4k120hz monitor for lite work, don't worry about your powerful card.
The second question: Yes!
The third question: maybe you can use a extending cable for the plugs at the bottom of the motherboard, not a pcie extending cable, it's toooooo expensive and not reliable.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

I think you are confused in general.

That's possible, but I am working hard to not be.

Why do you want two graphics cards exactly? Can you utilize two with some rendering or something? (If so, PCIe bandwidth really doesn't matter for such tasks, you are more storage constrained at that point)

I have four displays in use. My current computer has a 7700X, 32 Gig of memory, and the 4080 Super. I also own a 4070 Ti.

One display is a 4K projector (approx. 13' x 8' screen) that runs GSPro, the golf simulation program. The program is fairly graphics intensive. My goal would be to have this be the only display connected to the 4080 Super.

One 24" display shows the ProTee launch monitor software, which includes high-speed video of the club hitting the ball. This monitor is currently being run by the iGPU. And that works fine.

The other two monitors are mirrored; one is 32" 4K and the other is a 24" touch screen. This video feed shows the dual swing cameras that are currently run on independent USB controllers. This has been lagging badly and causes the feed to the projector to become jittery. My goal is to upgrade the cameras and run them on a two-port POE card sold for the purpose by Swing Catalyst. These mirrored monitors would run off the 4070Ti . See https://swingcatalyst.com/products/poe-dual-port-network-card

In addition, I have 2 keyboards, 2 gaming mice, a USB port to one of the mirrored monitors because it is a touch screen, a golf-simulator push button controller... And I'd like to get a flight stick system to use for gaming... And for that, I'm going to be pushing 12 USB ports in use.

This explain things better?

The others are right, most motherboards no longer have the spacing for dual GPUs (since that concept is mostly obsolete), and 40 series cards are PCIe 4.0. 4.0 8x is plenty for most GPUs under all circumstances.

Also seeing a lot of references to Lightning ports.

I haven't said anything about Lightning ports. OR USB 4 or Thunderbolt.

The term is Thunderbolt. Lightning is Apple's version of the same technology. Intel has Thunderbolt 4 capability, if you pay for it. AMD has put USB 4 on their X870 boards, and some X670 boards. This technically supports Thunderbolt 3 as well, though AMD can't actually say that.

Unless you already have the 4080 Super, now would be a good time to wait out for the 50 series launch. Pick up a 5080 or the 32GB 5090 if you want to maximize performance.

I understand you want to use a PoE network adapter from the host PC? Why not just get a PoE switch or router and get a motherboard that supports 10 or 5 Gbps depending on your needs?

 

[Eximo]

The single 4080 Super plus the 7700X can handle all those displays. Not a big drain on the memory. If you want a pure adapter for display it shouldn't be a 4070 Ti, but something lighter like a GT1030 or the like.

Other people were making reference to lightning ports. I'm not sure why, just wanted to clarify before you spent money on something you didn't need.

12 USB ports is easily solved with a good hub. All of your low data peripherals don't need much, and you aren't likely to be using max bandwidth on all ports at the same time.

A high speed PoE NIC PoE is also going to consume PCIe lanes. I don't think you can readily afford to have a second full size GPU in there, at least on a consumer board.

8x for the 4080 Super, it is capable of running all four displays if you wanted. But having the iGPU run a screen or two will work.

4x/8x for this PoE NIC of yours, you should confirm its requirements.

Ideally you would track down a board with 8x/8x and another x16 slot at at least 4x if you want to stick to your original plan.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

The single 4080 Super plus the 7700X can handle all those displays. Not a big drain on the memory. If you want a pure adapter for display it shouldn't be a 4070 Ti, but something lighter like a GT1030 or the like.

Other people were making reference to lightning ports. I'm not sure why, just wanted to clarify before you spent money on something you didn't need.

12 USB ports is easily solved with a good hub. All of your low data peripherals don't need much, and you aren't likely to be using max bandwidth on all ports at the same time.

A high speed PoE NIC PoE is also going to consume PCIe lanes. I don't think you can readily afford to have a second full size GPU in there, at least on a consumer board.

8x for the 4080 Super, it is capable of running all four displays if you wanted. But having the iGPU run a screen or two will work.

4x/8x for this PoE NIC of yours, you should confirm its requirements.

Ideally you would track down a board with 8x/8x and another x16 slot at at least 4x if you want to stick to your original plan.

Appreciate that. I was proposing using the 4070Ti as a second card for three reasons.

1. because I have it.
2. I envisioned gaming (like a flight sim) on the second 4K display.
3. And because I'd previously confirmed in a different post here that Windows is capable of handling multiple GPUs.

What I did not and do not understand is why virtually NO motherboards are built to accommodate two full-sized cards even when the motherboard is advertised as being dual-GPU capable, such as the Aorus X870E Extreme AI TOP which says: "Dual PCIe x 16 slots for multi-GPU."

Indeed, what is the purpose of having two 5.0 PCIe slots? Nothing on the market OTHER than a powerful GPU can come close to saturating the bandwidth of a 5.0 slot running at even running only at 8x.

You are undoubtedly right that I can manage the USB issue with a hub, but I'd prefer a MB that has the needed ports. And, anyway, the 890 boards have a ton of them--up to fifteen!

Exploration of the use of two video cards started when I added the second 4K monitor to the mix. Previously, I had a standard 24" monitor, and all was fine. But, with the 4K in its place, I began to experience obvious signs of the 4080S struggling to provide a smooth image during ball flight on the 4K projected image. I first pulled one of the 24" monitors off the 4080S and hooked it to the iGPU. To my delight, it worked. But the choppy ball flight continued. Interestingly, the choppy ball flight disappears if I turn off the 32" 4K monitor. So, it seemed to me that my 4080S was the issue.

I opened Task Manager and looked at the GPU usage to evaluate it. With everything running, the use is 80-100 percent. My 32Gig of memory is almost fully used. I'll test that again tonight...

Perhaps I've not done something I need to do. I'm new to using a PC--I've been a Mac guy for 25 years. This PC was purchased exclusively for my golf sim, but I've enjoyed it so much that I now use it for lots of stuff and have begun to think having a flight sim would be fun.

On the issue of available PCIe lanes for the POE card. I'm pretty sure any MB has plenty 4.0 lanes from the chipset. That card isn't a hog to my knowledge, but I will reach out the Swing Catalyst tomorrow to verify its needs. From the looks of it, it's only a x2 form factor.

Anyway, I very much appreciate your help!

 

[Eximo]

If you are pushing up against system memory capacity, that would be a good place to start looking. Having to go back to disk for data could easily explain your stuttering behavior.

The same is true of VRAM. If you are pushing up against 16GB of VRAM then you need to lower some of the graphics settings or get a larger graphics card. That means 4090 or a Quadro with 32GB/48GB of VRAM.

Multiple GPUs is possible, but they can't really work together any longer on a single task. You can have them do separate things that require video rendering though.

Legacy support is the main reason motherboards still offer dual 8x slots. Fastest solution at the moment is still dual 3090/3090Ti. Outperforms a single 4090 in some scenarios. A single 5090 should be the logical replacement for those users.

As for other high bandwidth devices. Disk controllers, M.2 sleds, extreme high speed networking (40Gbps+). Not much on the consumer side to be honest, but I will say that most of the 'gaming' focused motherboards have dropped support for SLI and Crossfire capability.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

If you are pushing up against system memory capacity, that would be a good place to start looking. Having to go back to disk for data could easily explain your stuttering behavior.

The same is true of VRAM. If you are pushing up against 16GB of VRAM then you need to lower some of the graphics settings or get a larger graphics card. That means 4090 or a Quadro with 32GB/48GB of VRAM.

Multiple GPUs is possible, but they can't really work together any longer on a single task. You can have them do separate things that require video rendering though.

Legacy support is the main reason motherboards still offer dual 8x slots. Fastest solution at the moment is still dual 3090/3090Ti. Outperforms a single 4090 in some scenarios. A single 5090 should be the logical replacement for those users.

As for other high bandwidth devices. Disk controllers, M.2 sleds, extreme high speed networking (40Gbps+). Not much on the consumer side to be honest, but I will say that most of the 'gaming' focused motherboards have dropped support for SLI and Crossfire capability.

Thanks so much for the comments!

I'm not looking to combine the capabilities of the GPUs. Each will run a different program on a different screen. And the newest MBs are advertising multi-gpu capability. So I don't see that as legacy support, unless I really misunderstand, which I may!

I wondered about the 32 Gig of RAM, and I intended to spec 64 on the upgraded computer. I suppose I could get those sticks now and try them out in my current rig. That is a good suggestion for sure.

I was really hoping to use the two GPUs I have verses spending a ton on a new one... But perhaps it's not feasible for technical and limits to VRAM considerations, as you point out.

 

[Eximo]

Legacy in the sense that some high end boards still offer the capability of SLI and Crossfire. SLI and Crossfire themselves have been discontinued, effectively.

Last models of consumer GPUs that had NVlink were the 3090/3090Ti. None of the 40 series support it. The farther back you go the more models/pricing tiers that supported NVLink or SLI. All the way down to the 50 class cards. AMD Crossfire support ended a little earlier though it was pretty much always a software only solution. Any true multi-GPU support now relies on software implementation by game/engine developers, and they just don't bother generally.

Systems are still capable of having pretty much any configuration of PCIe expansion cards that are capable of fitting. It is putting them to work via software that makes that possible. Really depends on the software if you can force it to one GPU or another. The OS is somewhat capable as switching between iGPU and dGPU is a common feature of laptops. So long as you set the render choice for each application you can make the attempt.