High-End personal Workstation Guidance

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Well, here's the way I would do it:

I would explain up front that workstation builds vary a great deal depending on what tasks exactly they will do, and that sometimes there is very little similarity.

Then I would talk about cores and threads.

Then I would take about GPUs. I would explain the difference between professional and gaming GPUs.

Then I would talk about GPU processing and how that might be beneficial.

Then I would discuss storage. (this is an area I really wish I knew more about when it comes to professional workstations. I know about storage but what do people really need? It's easier to say in a workgroup setting than it is for an individual machine.)

Then something about RAM. Probably a link or two.

Then a list of apps and hints about how well they are multi-threaded. Links that would help people locate what their app(s) require to run at their best.

Then a link back to the how to ask for advice post.

If you want to paste one together I would be happy to play copy editor :)
 


Sounds like a logical framework ... a great idea ... just not on my current "short-list" (of things to do) as I am putting out personal admin fires, all over the place, and trying to meet bunches of beauraucratic deadlines, ATM ... Certainly not in the next 30 days.

I am certainly not averse to other senior techs taking a stab at it, tho I *do* have my own opinions and biases, regarding budget, balance, and approach. So, I might disagree or differ, with "officially posted" docs ...
... That's life.

There really should be a "resident librarian" ... someone who can put their finger on stuff (or point the way) with efficiency.

I *really do* think that we are in an especially turmultuous phase, of very rapid and sporadic developmental changes, both in hw and apps, for the next ~6 months ...
... And ... I really do believe that the entire pro-apps landscape will begin to stabilize and "gel" into a much more predictable environment, as early as next spring ... on thru the summer.

The reason for this statment is porting to multi-threads and 64-bit should be much more mainstream, by then, as straglers will be putting themselves in peril.

Furthermore, the hw platforms are catching up to the requirements of dense codec transcodes and 3D/cgi at "reasonable" resolutons, etc.

So ... WE ALL should be able to settle down ... feel confident in our investments ... and get down to the business of just designing and generating "content", in this coming year ... after a very painful DECADE of flounderring and poor synchronization and lack of industry coordination.

We are FINALLY approaching a good/long spate of technical "harmonic convergence" and (I believe) that much of the frustration and consternation, of the past several years, will finally "dissolve" and fade.

Time to get some real work done ... there will be MUCH LESS "tail-chasing" from Q1-2012, forward.

= Quote me, on that =
 
... And, ... the NEW definition, for "HIGH End Workstation" ? ...
... Starting in Q1, of next year ... ? ...
*WE* will be looking at what sort of desktop "display and multiplexing terminal" will best augment and compliment CLOUD and TESLA type solutions ... and what local storage options would be both optimal and prudent, for Cloud and TESLA processing solutions.
THAT is (most assuredly) the next frontier of research for the "True Pro WS".

( I pretty much think that dual socket XEON solutions are gonna get squeezed out).

= Just my "take" =
 



I'm having an "AMEN Brother!!" here in empathy.

The OP's however cannot spend that time ahead of time because their minds are made up, that's a conundrum - so ideally you need to flash
interrogate and speed guide them through the exercise. So, what Alvin said 😱
 

Sorry to drop out for so long, but life called and I had to answer.

Here's the latest on my "Puff-Plus" i7-970 build.

Overclocking:
Had to filter through a lotta material to get good information for a Gulftown instead of a Bloomfield. This guy seems to have it right.
http://www.techreaction.net/2010/09/07/3-step-overclocking-guide-bloomfield-and-gulftown/

I found a sweet spot on the OC curve at 3.85GHz (167 BCLK x 23 CPU Ratio). I can hit it hard on all 12 threads and run 24/7 with temps at ~50deg. C and all voltages are within the manufacturer's specs. I tried to get something above 4GHz, but the voltages were high, the cores were running hot, and some of my individual benchmarks even went backwards, so I backed off for now.

Running stock speeds, the Passmark CPU score is right around 10K, but running at 3.85GHz, the Passmark CPU score is just under 12,000.

Applications:
I checked with Luxology and AutoDesk and got more mixed reports on what is needed for the GPU, so I am moving forward with my own validations. However, I did confirm that fport was right on video memory usage for SLI. Each card gets a full upload of the surfaces to be rendered, each card renders a color buffer equal to 1/2 (or 1/3 or 1/4) of the total scene, and then the results are combined into a single frame buffer on the Master card. This approach yields faster frame rates without any special handling of surface geometry data between the cards at the CPU level.

My first benchmark comparison for Revit came in at ~4.5x improvement over the Q9400. (Not the 6x I was hoping for, but not bad.) Never got a chance to test 3DsMax, though.

Modo did not fair so well. Simple projects are fine, but my wife's "field of grass" makes the program glitch and hang whenver it tries to do any OpenGL shading for the grass. My guess is that I'm busting through the 1GB VRAM on the 560Ti board. After I verify my assumption using MSI Afterburner or RivaTuner, I'm going to set a restore point and move the V7800 into the new box to see if it fixes the issue.

The change of GPU will also allow me to look more at CUDA influence on my application performance, so this is a good thing. I'm gonna get some more benchmarks for Revit and 3DsMax on the 560Ti before I make the move so we get a little scientific data out of this.


Overall, its a VERY strong workstation and you can be doing light work in Internet Explorer or Word and not even notice the fact that you've got all the cores maxed out busy on a render. Plus, now that 1 hour renders are completing in less than 15 minutes I think I might get a chance to sleep at night again. :sol:

I'm starting up a Photobucket account so I can put up some pics and benchmark graphics. Should have the link in my next post.

- cassdog
 
Thanks, Cass !
... That is the kind of data that justifies the continued relevance of this fine thread.

EXCELLENT WORK AND TRULY GREAT REPORTING ... ! ! !

Again, we are all very gratefull for your most cogent (and lucid) contribution !

Sincere,

=Alvin=
 


OK. It's not the hardware causing this problem with Modo; Afterburner showed that the VRAM usage never goes above 210MB. Now, I'm guessing Glitch and Hang were 2 of the software consultants that Luxology used to write the algorithms for the "fur" material used to make the grass, because this is just how Modo responds to this particular model. :pt1cable:

Here's what happens. When switching from flat shading to RayGL, the program goes through what I call a "memory expansion" for about 110 seconds while the commit charge slowly grows from 224KB to 5,368KB. During this time, the CPU usage is about 8% running on only 6 threads and any attempt to click on something results in a Windows "Not Responding" state. Once the "memory expansion" is done, the application becomes responsive again, and all 12 threads max out to 100% for about 45 seconds more. After that, any Pan or Orbit command works fine and takes the system less than 30 seconds to refresh while running on all 12 threads. Unfortunately, any context switch, like going to the Render Setup screen, results in a dump of the previously allocated memory and the slow painful progression of another "memory expansion".

Render times are about 4.5 to 5 times faster than on the Q9400, so kudos to the new i7-970 build there, but Modo sees fit to perform another 4~5GB "memory expansion" for the render to use. At one point, I hit a 13GB commit just for Modo (15~16GB total commit) when I had a modeling window with RayGL shading, a Render Preview window, and a Render window all going at the same time.

So, of the 3 minutes and 27 seconds necessary to render this scene, 110 seconds is spent with 6 threads twidling their thumbs at 8% CPU utilization and 97 seconds is spent with 12 threads running balls to the walls. I've never seen a computer post render buckets SO FAST.

I'm gonna have to try out some more normal models on the new rig, one's that don't have fur, and see how this thing really runs.

-cassdog
 
Kinda makes me glad I've been recommending single socket builds, for most home-pros.
Considering how much more a dual-socket/ECC/Quadro/1200Watt costs to build and run, not even considering that your home HVAC system has to more than double that power draw, just to counteract the extra ambient BTUs ??? ... I *MEAN* ... Really !

Living with a beast, like that (in real life) and watching your investment funds depreciate, at twice the rate, while providing VERY little (if ANY) extra benefit ? ... well ... Not on *MY* watch !

Even successful pros are eating more beans, in this economy ... me? ... I like beans, just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6dm9rN6oTs

=Al=
 
*** PRETTY BIG NEWS ***

AMD FX (Dozer) release ... Great news, for those of us (i.e. ME ! ) who *already* own "modern" AM3+ motherboards ... yay. ... I just might be willing to ditch my Athlon II propus x4core ... pretty soon ... for one of these guys. Gotta research BIOS updates and power requirements, as well, tho.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AMD FX processor brings eight cores to battle, we go eyes-on (video)

http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/12/amd-fx-processor-brings-eight-cores-to-battle-we-go-eyes-on-vi/


AMD Bulldozer Arrives. Enter to Win One of Your Own.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-bulldozer-fx-8150-zambezi-contest,13685.html


AMD FX-8150 Review: From Bulldozer To Zambezi To FX

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8150-zambezi-bulldozer-990fx,3043.html


Bulldozer Has Arrived: AMD FX-8150 Processor Review

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-fx-8150.html


=!=

 
Hi,

I am in the process of ordering parts to build a copy of the "6-PAGE THREAD STUDENT WORKSTATION" . The specified memory, G .Skill Ripjaws series 12 GB, is not available in Finland. Kingston KVR1333D3N9K3/12G would be and is approved to fit the Gigabyte motherboard. Difference seems to be a CL of 7 with the G. Skill against one of CL 9 with Kingston. Do a sacrifice something important and does this make a difference in the real world ?

And a great thanks for the fine specification and in depth discussion it helped and saved a lot.

RolfV
 


No ... Given that the only difference is the CAS response rating (I did not actually compare the specs ... you seem capable) ...
RULE of THUMB ... Every three steps in CAS equals approx. 0.1GHz in CPU speed difference (if that) ... With OC and or HT and/or Turbo (understand these carefully before setting up your OC) ... CAS hardly makes any difference, at all.

ANOTHER "Rule of Thumb" (common rule) ... *MORE* DRAM will make your system faster than *FASTER* DRAM ...

Realize, also, that if you do not purchase a certified and tested "multi-stick kit" that the fully loaded DRAM config may not be able to run at the stated/rated speed and CAS ... you may have to drop down to a lower/slower rating, to get the system to run stable, under full load ... You may also need to boost the DRAM voltage, by (only) two or three the smallest increments allowed (not more) to get it to run stable ... more sticks is like more sprinklers, on the same (shared) garden hose.

I do not wish to confuse you and I hope that the "colloquial translations" do not muddy the issue ... .. but, I just wanted to inform you of the full gamut of associated considerations ... YOU COULD just let the system auto-sense the DRAM and "be done with" ... but you can (and should) enter the specified DRAM timings (as published) into the BIOS DRAM timing fields MANUALLY ! ... and be sure to save those settings before (or upon) exiting the BIOS (system setup) screens ... After the subsequent "system reset", do re-enter the BIOS/Setup menus and verify that your manually entered settings were, indeed, saved ...

... If stability benches (see Illy's build, on this thread) do not run stable, you should then bump up the voltage, one "notch" at a time ... up to (not more than) three increments.

The experts on Tom's OC forum (just down the hall, here) can help you more, with any OC and or cooling or stability issues.

Best of luck ... It really is not as complicated as I am making it sound (in most cases). Just stuff that can be very good to know.

=Al=
 
Thank you,

Your answer was crystal clear and the rules of thumb helpful in defogging my brain ( some still remaining). Will honour the caveat on the "certified and tested " multi-stick kits when ordering later this week.

RolfV
 


Great ! ... And, since were are still "on the same page" (literally), I feel that it is "safe" to offer one other clarification, in light of our previous discussion ...

Some *enthusiast* motherboards BIOS features DO allow for more granular (smaller) increments of voltage control (boost). ... The reason for this is that it allows OC enthusiasts to more finely tune the voltage (get closer to their limits, without exceeding them) and to experiment with more care.

It has been awhile, since I (personally) got in there and messed around with voltages and I would recommend expert advice from someone who is MORE qualified at OC than I am, when it comes to safe DRAM voltage levels, for a given (particular) configuration (mobo+DRAM combo).

You do not have a whole lotta room to play with and it is possible to fry your sticks so, get the most qualified advice you can and do proceed with caution.

To be perfectly honest, there are a few smart 12 year old gamers, on the OC forums (and right here) that know more than I do, about the DRAM voltage limits with "current kit".

Just to be clear.

=regards=
 
FINALLY !! GAME ON !! Time to wake up and get cranking ...

I (personally) would still recommend waiting until six weeks after these hit the channel, before diving in ... just to be certain that the chipset is stable and allow for last-minute BIOS tweaks but, after the Cougar chipset fiasco, of last Spring, I do not see any major issues, in the cards ... The first 2011 chips released will be extreme versions (premium pricing) so, most of us will be waiting for the value versions to be released ... My guess is that full production could be in the channel by mid january, right on schedule.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THG Article ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Intel Core i7-3960X Review: Sandy Bridge-E And X79 Express

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-3960x-x79-sandy-bridge-e,3071.html


[:bilbat:5] :bounce: [:bilbat:5] :bounce: [:bilbat:5] :bounce: [:bilbat:5]
 


I'm actually thinking about puttering along until Ivy Bridge.
 


I'm still not entirely clear on what the differences or respective advantages might (all) be ...
... I gave the linked article, on Sand-E, a careful read, tho, and I am not telling anyone to run right out and buy this, before April ...
... Despite the 1155s very strong showing, in most of the benches, I still do not like the 1155 platform PCIe bus and DRAM architecture, when it comes to professional multiplexing and optimizations, with an eye toward future demands.

It really IS a shame that more SATA3 and USB3 ports were not included but, there is now PUH-LENTY of extra bus-lines and bandwidth for after-market super-boards ... Plenty of lanes for any new 3DHD capture devices ... RAMDISKS ... Single slot, multi-gpu, multi-display options, and all that.
And ... in theory, with enough ports, glommed onto it, you could be running home security cams and home control devices (and sw), in background, at all times ... or ... You can make an affordable CUDA/TESLA virtualization rig (even with game-cards).

This article also shows that if you went with an X58 platform, last Spring, you got nuttin' to cry about ... Six cores and a juicy RAMDISK (with moderate OC) and X58 still ain't no slouch.

The article, tho, uses clocking and pricing metrics which I do not feel are really fair or realistic and I think that distorts the true value potential, in this platform.

I would still like to see an affordable 10-slot Mobo-Case option with gobs of integrated storage and USB3 ports ... Dual Gigabit ... eSata3 ... just bristling because, electronic musicians and laboratory I/O, and HD Production and post studios and even vertical "sensor rich" configs could be expanded without concern. Old slots ... New slots ... Grey slots ... Blue slots. But, hey, maybe that's just "me".

In any event, as usual ... My recommendation would be to wait ... This time until ~Oct 12 of next year ... There should be enough releases (of value CPUs and Hi-band Peripherals) by then and, by mid August (as usual) there will be enough forward visibilty and "street-value" that you will be able to tell if you (personally) need to wait until October, or not. For most needs, Mid August is OK but there are often surprise releases and announcements, as late as Sept 10 thru Oct 10 and it takes a few days to filter thru the press. I am talking about "next-gen" peripheral announcements ... Primarily SSD related. GPU pricing and availablity is usually fairly static, by August.

Just my take ... My "GAME ON" comment is also "symbolic" in that IF YOU BUY THIS SOCKET AND BUS, RIGHT NOW, IT WILL BE *SEVERAL* (MANY) YEARS BEFORE YOU FEEL ANY SORT OF PINCH.

1155 has always looked a bit sickly, to my mind ... Now, more than ever. (Just say-in').

= 😍 =
 


I'm glad someone agrees with me :)
 


Mostly that it is pricey, at this point and that it woulda been much more to my liking if the southbridge had included a full complement of USB3 ports and lots more SATA3 ports. ... That said, I am very much thrilled with the PCIe3.0 Bus spec and there are puh-lenty of spare lanes and banwidth to hang any number of advanced ports on it, after-market. So, I will be looking for a decent 2011 hex-core proc that can be clocked to over 4GHz and I will want that to cost under ~$350 ... I will want to see more reasonably priced mid-range mobos with lots of advanced ports ... I am also looking for multi-proc (single slot) GPU options with at LEAST 2GB VRAM (an much more), before August.

So ... If you MUST purchase a ws, right now, I would feel fairly comfortable advising the purchase of this platform, *IF* the initial outlay does not scare you off. There IS something to be said for having a stable and long-lived platform that can evolve incrementally so ... if you can get your foot in the door, with a modest build (cheaper CPU, Less DRAM, etc.) now, you could do much worse. The alternative, of course, would be to get a "throw-away platform", to limp along with, until a full modern build becomes less expensive BUT, there are costs associated with any platform change (OS, install/test-time, etc.) so some "departmental" budgets should just go ahead and do this. Under-grads may wish to just buy an 1155 "boner" and squeeze that for all it is worth. Some folks would be satisfied with the performance of a hex-core X58 (no slouch!) but you had better get a move-on, before the channel dries up (soon!).

Ivy bridge is coming out and I want to see if there is a desk-top roadmap that makes sense, for that iteration of this architecture ... There is a lot to be said for a mobile, low-power option BUT (my experience) mobile devices tend to have many more serious design faults and are expensive or impossible to repair and, even if you have a maxed out service contract, what good does that do you if you have to send it back or if your entire boot-environment gets hosed (sometimes repeatedly) ... We all know about battery issues and many other issues that compact platforms are prone to.

I like a wide open bus with LOTS of surplus bandwidth ... One with discreet components that may be removed and upgraded. I want a platform that is very apt for studio and lab multiplexing (lots of specialized I/O like capture cards and prototyping tools, etc. ... studio breakout cards, etc.) ....

If my needs change or increase ? ... I would rather EVOLVE than REPLACE my entire environment . A large (fast/wide) open bus and a 2011 pin socket will allow me to make whatever upgades and adjustments that just about any (vertical) professional "revolution" may throw at me. And, all this can take place without tossing my "office" and "browsing" and "social interaction" tools and preferences.

I am the kind of guy that would rather live in a warehouse than to build a storage shed (or three) in my back yard.

So, I am just saying that I want all the pins, slots, ports, lanes, and inter-connect bandwidth that I can get, even if I start out with a modest proc and a smallish amount of DRAM.

Once again (this year, as last) Forward visibility and street cpu pricing should become "trustworthy and accessible" by mid August and, by then, the full gammut of IVY's flavors and platform variants should be revealed ... and ... by late September, all the storage pricing should be stabilized, and static, for several months (until the following Spring).

If you have the luxury of waiting until the perfect moment, to purchase a complete system ... I'd say about September 20th 2012.

The great news is that you can have PCIe 3.0 and scads of lanes, and a 2011 pin socket ... right now ! ... Really decent Sand-E pricing should hit the channel by mid April 2012 and I would expect some port-laden motherboards, at less scary prices will also be available by Mid April 2012 so ... If you get a Sand-E (Socket 2011) enthusiast (mid-range) platform and a modest 4-core cpu, in late April, you are not likely to regret doing that, ANY time soon.

Still not clear on how IVY will effect the desk-top. That could change the entire cost-performannce "solution" but, until forward visibility, on IVY, becomes much more clear, I'd just recommend biting the Sand-E bullit. (In late April).

=Al=
 
Yes , its a bit pricey , but as i allready have a computer with ddr3 memory (8 GB) , i only have to upgrade the pcu and the mobo. And i have a SSD , and some HDDs for data.


I mostly use the pc for 3d modeling, photography and so , and i wanted to change to a six core cpu , and the 2011 socket i thought was better than the 1155 , that seems more for gamers and like.



 
My system specs

Asus P5E3 PRO
CPU Intel Quadcore Q6600

Nvidia Geforce FX 470 (I have an old Nvidia Quadro FX 570 too)
WD Green 2TB 7200 RPM (new)
Seagate 1,5 TB (Backup)
HDD 1TB DATA
HDD 1 TB DATA
120 GB SSD OS system (OCZ Vertex )
8 GB Kingston DDR3 1333
1200 Antec Case
Termaltake 1200w PSU

I mostly use Photoshop Cs5, Maya, and Lightroom . As i have most of the elements of my pc , i would only buy a new mobo and a new cpu , and cooler, a 2011 socket as i think i preffer the x79 chipset than the z68 for stability reasons and like , and i don't play games and so , only do 3d modeling and digital photography because is my personal hobby , i no live of it but i preffer to spend my money in that than in alcohol like my friends xd ...
 
I think i will finally instead or save the money or buy a Quadro for example a Quadro 4000 , as i think a Q6600 is ok for now , and i can wait until the 2011 socket / SB-E gets more interesting trusting , etc ...
 
I am looking at building a workstation to handle Autodesk Building design Suite ultimate . with a little minor 3d work. can you suggest a mid range setup??



This is what i have come up with so far:

CPU : Intel Core i7-2600K 3.40 GHz Quad-Core Unlocked

Motherboard : Intel BOXDZ68DB Z68 LGA 1155 Motherboard

Memory: Kingston KHX1333C9D3B1K2/8G Desktop Memory Kit - 8GB (2x 4GB), PC3-10600, DDR3-1333MHz,
240-pin DIMM, 9-9-9-27 CAS Latency, 1.5V, Non-ECC, Unbuffered X 2 total 16GB

Video Card : EVGA 01G-P3-1461-KR GeForce GTX 560 Superclocked Video Card - 1GB, GDDR5, PCI-Express 2.0 (x16),
2x Dual-Link DVI-I, Mini-HDMI, DirectX 11, Dual-Slot, SLI Ready, Overclocked

Hard drives: 2 X Western Digital WD5000AAKX Caviar Blue Hard Drive - 500GB, 3.5", SATA 6Gbps, 7200RPM, 16MB In
Raid 1
Corsair CSSD-F120GBGT-BK Force GT Series Solid State Drive - 120GB, 2.5", SATA III, 6Gbps for OS and
apps

Case :Corsair CC-9011012-WW Carbide Series 500R Mid Tower Gaming Case - ATX, mATX, 4x Ext 5.25" Bays, 6x Int 3.5" Bays, 1x 200mm and 2x 120mm White LED Fans, 1x 120mm Fan, 2x USB 3.0 and 1x FireWire Ports

PS: Corsair CMPSU-750TXV2 Enthusiast Series TX750 V2 Power Supply - 750 Watts, ATX, 140mm Fan, 80 Plus Bronze, SLI Ready, Active PFC

Monitor : Samsung S22A100N 22" Class Widescreen LED Backlit Monitor - 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 5000000:1
 
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