high-end workstation

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
E

edgar

Distinguished
Jan 2, 2008
17
0
18,510
I “manage” (i.e. herd cat-like objects :) ) the IT of a small business. We have three folks with desktops and three with laptops plus the boss has both. We have a rotation schedule to replace the computers, the boss gets a high-end desktop every five years and his old desktop is passed down with each box dropping down an office. The same happens with the laptops, but on a three-year schedule.

Because of the long time between builds (I build all desktops from the case/board up), I get a $5000 budget (unless I have had some disastrous expense in the five years) for the boss’s new computer. Here is what I have come up with for a January-February 2008 build:

CASE: Thermaltake VE2000BWS Armor Black ATX Full Tower Built-in Liquid Cooling $215
PSU: Thermaltake Toughpower 1000w PSU W0132RU $259
MB: Asus P5E3 Deluxe $349 tigerdirect.com
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 at 3.0 GHz FSB1333 $277
RAM: OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 Reaper X HPC 4GB Kit (2 x 2GB) $548
GPU: SAPPHIRE HD3870 $245 NowDirect.com $235
HDD: (2) Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 ($165 x 2) $ 330
HDD (C: drive): Western Digital Raptor WD740ADFD 74GB $119
BU DRIVE: Iomega REV 70 GB SATA Kit w/5 disks $604
MONITOR: ViewSonic's 28" VX2835wm $700 (budget allows room for 2)
MS Vista Ultimate retail $258 64-bit
MS Office 2007 Ultimate retail $361
Total $ 4255

The boss’s computer does mainly heavy-duty spreadsheet financial analysis (60%), CAD and other graphics intense, non-game software(25%), music composition (10%--Finale & Sonar) with a bit of e-mail and programming; it runs Dragon NaturallySpeaking Pro 9 (onboard sound might not be good enough—might have to allocate $200 for a Creative sound card). Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome!
 
Alright, there are some issues with this system.

PSU: Overkill, drop it for a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750W
Mobo: Screw DDR3, huge price premium for next to no performance gain, get a P5E instead.
RAM: Get 4GB of quality DDR2 instead, hell, get 8GB of it for less then the 4GB of DDR3 you posted.
CPU: Q6600 is a better choice for multi-tasking.
GPU: There is no reason not to get a Quadro or FireGL card and enable hardware acceleration in AutoCAD. I use it everyday at school, and it runs as well on their old P4 systems, if not slightly better, then on my Core2Duo setup, because they have video card hardware acceleration.
HDD: Raptors aren't worth it, they are actually being beaten in many benchmarks by the new Seagate 7200.11 drives, and have terrible GB/$ ratio.

Most important thing to take from my post, is that a Quadro or FireGL card is basically needed if you are going to do intensive work in AutoCAD, the program runs so much smoother with hardware acceleration.
 
It's obviously a powerful PC, but it's not a workstation if it doesn't use an ECC capable motherboard and ECC memory.
 
CASE: Thermaltake VE2000BWS Armor Black ATX Full Tower Built-in Liquid Cooling $215

PSU: PCP&C 750w $160 NewEgg
MB: Asus P5E Deluxe $229 NewEgg
CPU: Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9650 at 3.0 GHz FSB1333 $1075
RAM: (2) GSKILL -DDR2 1000 (2 x 2GB) $300 NewEgg
GPU: SAPPHIRE HD3870 $245 NowDirect.com $235 (Change to Quadro)
HDD: (2) 7200.11 500GB 7,200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0 ($120 x 2) $ 240
HDD (C: drive): 7200.11 500GB 7,200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0 $120
BU DRIVE: Iomega REV 70 GB SATA Kit w/5 disks $604
MONITOR: ViewSonic's 28" VX2835wm $700 (budget allows room for 2)
MS Vista Ultimate retail $258 64-bit
MS Office 2007 Ultimate retail $361
Total $ 4495


If you want to Cut from this you can..........
1) Get Vista 64-Bit OEM - Save $70
2) Get Gigabyte DS3R Motherboard - Save $100
3) PCP&C 610w Silencer (Still Plenty of Juice) - Save $40
4) You need a Backup Unit on a PC? Your Data is not on a Server?
Save $604.

Advantages of new System.

1) The Fastest CPU Available on the Market. (Q6600 Fine, but you have cash to burn)

2) 8GB of Memory. This will be very important very shortly. DDR2-1000 will still not come close to bottlenecking your system.

3) Far More DataStorage and just as fast or faster. You will also be able to backup your Data files from the presumed RAID-0 back to Drive C for fast/easy retrieval in the event of corruption of loss. You will still need tape backup, but this will make work as well.

 
Does BOSS really use all this computer power doing CAD or does he just want it for bragging rights? Is he the power user in the office or do some staff do more computer intensive work? Do any of the staff use multiple systems at once?

I expect the laptops don't have near the power of the workstations. What do the laptop users do that does not require a workstation but does require portability?

I guess I am being a little nosey but I can't help but wonder if this method really maximizes the effective allocation of resources or just indulges the boss. OK - it really is none of my business. I just can't help wondering.

I agree with Gravemind. I can't understand why, if CAD is the most intensive use, you spend so much on RAM, cooling, and HDs then seem to skimp on the graphics card. Also, don't CAD programs make good use of multiple cores? Would this be a good use for a quad core? What are the recommended systems requirements for his CAD and graphics software? Heavy duty financial analysis spreadsheets don't require much.

I pity the guy at the bottom with the old machine. Do the older machines get upgrades?
 
Thanks for all the helpful comments!

I will hit the environmental highlights first…the boss is paralyzed from the neck down (quadriplegic), some of his software needs are esoteric! He does like to brag (and sure he gets “indulged”), and I am expecting to drop a quad CPU in when the 45nm prices stabilize, unfortunately, we cannot wait for a new system because the 5-year-old is not able to keep up with the financial calculations. He manages a very large stock portfolio for a pension fund and currently the trend analysis takes over 20 minutes in Excel—we hope to get this below 10 minutes. The CAD program is not AutoCAD, but similar in hardware needs.

The pass-down desktops are indeed old and not upgraded much (they each have a big hard drive now and a single OS upgrade—98->ME). In reality, they are very well suited to the tasks they perform. Box 2 (10 years old) is a dual boot (XP Pro and BeOS), dual CPU machine which does custom programming, financial review, internet and some CAD. It too is getting a bit slow for the job! Box 3 is a BeBox, a proprietary, custom built motherboard and OS which is now little used except for text editing of software and internet connection. Box 4 is a Commodore Amiga 3000 with Video Toaster and is in heavy continuous use in a video production studio. None of these boxes are in the same location, we have no server.

The laptops are mainly used when parts of the team are on the road—mostly for communications via the internet.

The boss’s computer is shared by others, to some extent. We have three somewhat intermingled “jobs”. We manage a 23-person pension fund with individually tailored goals (the needs of an 18-year-old are far different from those of a 56-yerar-old), assets in $10,000,000 range. We design and build (handicap) accessible stuff (simple wooden ramps, 4x4 trucks, large and small boats, homes—anything imaginable, large or small). We also do specialized videos dealing with underwater environmental issues, some for public broadcast others for government studies.

Now to the good stuff (hardware)!

rockyjohn said, “I can't understand why, if CAD is the most intensive use, you spend so much on RAM, cooling, and HDs then seem to skimp on the graphics card.”

I posted in the graphics forum and learned that I did not need to buy a Crossfire card if I only wanted to run one card and two monitors. I would be more than willing to buy a better graphics card, but I could find no information out there to suggest a better card. I sure would like some help on that!

Then, “ What are the recommended systems requirements for his CAD and graphics software? Heavy duty financial analysis spreadsheets don't require much.”

The CAD recommends an nVidia card (I suppose I should consider the nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS), but Excel only needs a fast CPU and 2GB of RAM.

And, “Also, don't CAD programs make good use of multiple cores?”

Not really, and specifically, this one is not compiled to take advantage of multiple cores. The OS does not even do a great job of using more than 2 cores and MS Office is not compiled to use multi-cores. From the recent Tom’s tests, four cores did not significantly outperform two in any situation.

As for zenmaster’s offered system and Gravemind123’s suggestions, both tend toward—forget DDR3 and get a quad-core and skip the 10k SATA150 drive and get bigger 7.2k SATA300 drives. I have seen the test results reported on Tom’s which backup what both of you are saying. When I first priced out a system, I thought to go with DDR2 and 7.2k because of that data. I am still undecided! The tipping point is future compatibility on the DDR2 motherboards—I need to do some more research, I guess.

As for zenmaster’s suggestion to get 8GB RAM now, I may well, if I can stay under $5000 and will for sure if I go DDR2. Hmmm, can I put DDR2 memory in a DDR3 board?


 
No DD3 and DDR have different slots and different voltages.

I think the strategy of upgrading to one monster CPU with monster price every 5 years results in everyone having poor performing systems - including the boss towards the end of the cycle.

I would suggest upgrading every 2 years and buying a $2,000 system. Same cost on average yearly basis. And everyone would regularly end up with faster machines.

 
DDR2 does not work in a DDR3 board. Also, most boards will not handle more then 8GB, so future memory upgrades wouldn't be needed. If you look at test of DDR2 vs. DDR3, there isn't a great performance increase going up to DDR3.
As for CAD, you CANNOT get hardware acceleration with a GeForce card, my GeForce 7900GS cannot provide hardware acceleration, but the schools older Matrox cards can. You need a card geared to CAD and workstation jobs, like a Quadro if you are looking nVidia.

Look at this list: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/hc?siteID=123112&id=6711853&linkID=9240618
to see what cards are supported in which operating systems and find what fits best into your budget.
 
Need quad Core and 4 Gb or better of ram

CPU: Intel Xeon X3230 $568.50
Case: LIAN LI PC-V1200Bplus II $219.99
PSU: 750 watt PC Power and Cooling $169.99
Ram: Crucial 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 $199.96
HD: 8 x Fujitsu MAX3036RC 36.7GB 15,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) Hard Drive $1,079.92
SAS Card: LSI LOGIC LSI00048-F PCI Express SATA / SAS MegaRAID 8408E 8 Port 256MB $630.00 Motherboard: ASUS P5K64 WS $219.99
Videocard: PNY VCQFX1500-PCIE-PB-V Quadro FX1500 $489.99
DVD Rom: PLEXTOR 18X DVD±R Super Multi DVD Burner $74.99

$3,653.33

Plus 1000 in screens
 
Need quad Core and 4 Gb or better of ram

CPU: Intel Xeon X3230 $568.50
Case: LIAN LI PC-V1200Bplus II $219.99
PSU: 750 watt PC Power and Cooling $169.99
Ram: Crucial 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 $199.96
HD: 8 x Fujitsu MAX3036RC 36.7GB 15,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) Hard Drive $1,079.92
SAS Card: LSI LOGIC LSI00048-F PCI Express SATA / SAS MegaRAID 8408E 8 Port 256MB $630.00 Motherboard: ASUS P5K64 WS $219.99
Videocard: PNY VCQFX1500-PCIE-PB-V Quadro FX1500 $489.99
DVD Rom: PLEXTOR 18X DVD±R Super Multi DVD Burner $74.99

$3,653.33

Plus 1000 in screens
 
You realize what is good today is not very good tommorrow?

BTW I am a Family (small) business owner. Slightly bigger than your business, but the situation is the same. The Family (aka owners, meaning me and the rest of the family) have computers that range from 3 months to 24 months old. Our older computers are passed down to least intensive departments. Even with passing down of equipment the oldest computer in the business is now 6 years old.

My newest computer will kick the butt of the 24 month old computers. Just running a simple task, such as opening a very large PDF file, can take less than half the time on the newest computer versus one of the 24 month old computers. Yep, really twice as fast, with similar cost (at the time) CPU's. Light years faster than that 6 year old computer.

I would seriously re-evaluate your purchases and plan for a quicker upgrade path. Build today with good quality parts, but not necessarily the absolute bleeding edge high end, with a clear upgrade path in 12-24 months when I would replace the MB and CPU with similar high end but not bleeding edge parts. The E6850 is a great CPU (today). You wait a few weeks the Penyrn's will be on the market. Either way would yield a really great CPU for the next 12-24 months. And the upgrade path would not require a huge rebuild so the computer could be offline just over a weekend.


In today's build, skip the DDR3 and the liquid cooling. OC'ing today will get you a faster unit ...today.... but in 12 or 24 months todays OC'd CPU will be just a mainstream CPU. Skipping the DDR3 should allow you to drop down to a less expensive MB.

I own a Raptor. Yep, it is fast. But the mainstream HD's are getting nearly as fast (or maybe as faster) and the mainstream HD's are waaay quieter. If you have multi- Raptors in a computer it is going to get noisy pretty fast.
 
Just another thought - for that $5,000 today I could get a very decent system for owner for $2,000 (maybe not with huge monitors) and buy 3 pc's for others at $1,000 each that I am sure would make huge increases in productivity for them. For example, one site was selling a Dell Quad core with 3 mb of memory for $600 - throw in a $100 graphics card - maybe a 1950Pro - and wow would the productivity of the three users increase. Their job satisfaction, loyalty and performance might further improve as they were not treated as the bottom of the hand me down pile.
 


The CAD box would want a compatible video card with whatever its hardware acceleration is. Check online for its list of compatible cards. This is probably a much more reasonable plan, and increased productivity is always a good thing, as is making employees happy.
 
I knew a system planner once who was faced with
choosing a schedule for rolling out new computers
in a hospital setting: some managers wanted
to give the new computers to the slowest workers,
in order to make them more efficient. My colleague
recommended giving the new computers to the
best workers, as rewards for their better job
performance.

His logic was impeccable: if the former strategy
had been adopted, the entire staff would look
upon the computers as a "remedy" to punish
poor performance. The latter strategy was adopted
instead, because everyone wanted to be rewarded for
superior performance, and it generated a healthy
competition to earn that reward.

Thus, I would ask the CEO to WAIT, and
build a series of new computers that reward
all of his subordinates with excellent,
cost-effective hardware. When all of them
are happy, THEN he should design and
build his latest "dream" system, remembering
that it WILL BE OBSOLETE the moment
he turns it ON the very first time.

"Constant change is here to stay." -- car bumper sticker


Sincerely yours,
/s/ Paul Andrew Mitchell
Webmaster, Supreme Law Library
http://www.supremelaw.org/
Click to expand...

the only bad thing with that is workers how are slowed down by the slower system will have a hard time getting there performance up.
 
WOW!

I never expected this much great advice! I especially want to thank Paul--not only were there many details, I actually understand almost everything you say.

Y’all seem to be hitting on two main subjects—one is the mondo 5-year upgrade plan, the other is that I am spec’ing a bad choice of hardware for a workstation.

The upgrade plan is based on some unique events. The budget funding is from a 25 year old annuity which provides for a computer every 5 years as an adaptive aid to a disabled worker. The computer does more than just the common office tasks and the hardware/software for those jobs is partially off-the-shelf and partially custom. When I change OSes or MBs I have a major job of integrating the old tools! If I had to do it every two years, I would go nuts. Another consideration is that the older computers are very carefully set up to do specific jobs and generally do them very well for the ones who use them. The boss’s computer is available to all for computationally intense jobs, the CAD design work is done there, the but the old Intel boxes will still be able to display the plans. The financial work rarely needs to leave the main box but the old boxes running excel as a display (not to re-calc) will be fine. So, I will take the advice under consideration, but will likely stick to the 5-year plan for now.

The idea that a computer is a game machine or a workstation never really sank in to my head until I started this thread. When I started this whole adaptability computer gig 25 years ago, workstations were way out of the budget and I believed that I could not create the necessary hardware and software. In today’s climate, I see that a workstation is what I may really need. After doing some research, I ended up spec’ing a gaming machine (is my guess) and I am now going to have to re-examine the whole concept!

I am going on the road next week, in 10 days or so I will present some new thoughts for your consideration. Again, thanks to all for opening my eyes.

PS. As for Vista, I will buy a copy because I believe in supporting software authors (even MS)—I lived for years (hungry years) on royalties from software and hardware. I also volunteer on the MS Utilization and Adaptability teams for which MS gives me “free”/gifts of software and/or hardware. So, while I may buy and try Vista, I will not be hesitant to go back to XP.
 
Intel...need to recycle
every 3 years (not 5)... your 5-year recycle
has put you out of touch with the nature
and extent of rapid evolution in the IT
hardware world

Just for laughs: in 1979 our company
purchased a minicomputer for $250,000

Around 1984, we purchased 3 Control Data
340 megabyte Winchester disk drives
Click to expand...

We are not quite Intel :) ! I wish I could afford the time and budget to upgrade more often. Even if a $2500 computer (every 2.5 years) can perform the esoteric jobs we require (and today it probably can), It takes at least a month to stabilize a new build with our custom software and hardware--time I begrudge! I feel lost every 5 years when I look at the newest hardware.

LOL, in 1973 I ordered a computer from some company in Denver--like yours, $250,000. not as much horsepower though! In 1985 I had one of the first Amiga 1000s, I bought a Pal Jr. hardrive for it. The drive was a 20MB SCSI.

On first glance, here is what I came up with for a DDR2 system:

Asus P5E WS Professional (ddr2) $277
Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 at 3.0 GHz core clock speed and FSB1333 $277
(2) OCZ Platinum PC2-6400 4GB $120 x2->8GB $240
BFG GeForce 8800 Ultra 768MB PCIe $730
Lite-On 20x DH-20A4P-04 DVD-RW with 12x DVD-RAM $37
Western Digital WD1600YS $65 newegg
(2) wd5000ys $108 computer geeks
Western Digital My Book™ Home Edition WDH1CS10000 1 TB $300 direct
Thermaltake VE2000BWS Armor Black ATX Full Tower Case Built-in Liquid Cooling $215 no PSU
Thermaltake Toughpower 1000w PSU W0132RU $259
ViewSonic's 28" VX2835wm $700
MS Vista Ultimate retail $258 64/32-bit full via MS partner
MS Office 2007 Ultimate retail $361 full via MS partner
Microsoft K48-00001 Wireless Optical Desktop Cordless Combo Natural multimedia keyboard + Wireless 3 button optical scroll mouse $37
Philips 16X DVD-R White Inkjet 200pack $57
$4029

You will note, I kept the liquid cooled case and the PSU. I expect these to last at least two generations so do not mind the few extra dollars. I also costed out some frills DVD+media, new mouse and keyboard. I also went with 8GB RAM. My guess is that I will stay with XP Pro, but go 64 bit--that will be a freeby, I did want to try Vista from a admin point of view.
 


You're missing the point -- ECC is about data integrity, not servers. Actually, you'll find that for other than the smallest servers, expensive "buffered" ECC memory is generally required. For someone with more limited memory requirements, some of the most popular X38 motherboards (Giga-byte GA-X38-DQ6, etc.) also support "unbuffered" ECC memory, and those modules carry but a small price premium. If you're a student or someone who doesn't use CAD professionally, a PC is all that you need. However, for professional use, the small price differential for unbuffered ECC memory should be a no-brainer.
 
I may be missing something here, but why do you have to build the systems for your company? Why wouldn't they just go to Dell and buy from them and get support from them directly? I'm sure you can buy from Dell 5 year 24 hour support for any system they sell, and you can also act as the internal admin for all the systems and you be the one dealing with Dell when something goes wrong. Is it more complicated than that?
 
I came across this thread a little late but that's just because I hit the hot threads list on the THG home page...

Luckily lots of folks have already offered some really good advice. Here are a few of my thoughts about your proposed build and some of the comments in here:

I'm a little wishy-washy about DDR3 right now. While it's great for benchmarks and pee-pee wagging, the actual performance payoff for the apps that'll be running is not huge. I'm even more wishy-washy about expensive high-perf stuff but if you're over-clocking, sure, go for it. Otherwise the 1% performance payoff probably isn't quite worth it.

Does that monitor include any color matching stuff? If the boss is doing graphics work, something like an X-rite EZcolor with i1Display 2 Bundle might impress the big man, ensuring good matching from end to end.

I knew people were gonna question your choice to get Raptors! Seems to be the vogue thing here in Tom's, to smack people for paying that much for a hard drive that size. The problem seems to be that folks are looking at the wrong benchmarks and don't realize the huge disconnect between real-life performance and many of the benchmarks, and/or put undeserving emphasis on things that don't yet matter significantly (i.e. SATA interface speed). My inclination however, would be to use a couple of WD1500s and forget the smaller ones, and get a couple of the newer, larger SATA drives for a data partition. I'm not clear on your RAID intentions though, if any...

Speaking of unclear RAID intentions, Funnyman06 came up with an interesting approach, using lots of spindles to gain performance. Didn't realize the prices of the smaller SAS drives were that low now. But that Lian Li case is really meant for just six or seven spindles so you'll sacrifice a couple of optical bays for the last two. Oh, and make sure the HBA is set for staggered spin-up!

This is also a good time to point out that the RAID controller universe consists of far more than what you see reviewed on THG. Don't be afraid to expand your search, and check the HD reviews at StorageReview.com too. Don't just read the numbers - make sure you understand what they all mean.

While it doesn't look like it fits your current budget or office plan, let me point out that there are some new and interesting developments in backup options this last year or two - especially disk -based systems. Look for the keywords data de-duplication. I'm a little surprised someone like Supremelaw didn't think of that since he's suggesting re-architecting your office. PS Mr. Mitchell, does RamDisk Plus work on XP and Vista? The web site only mentions Win2K Server and 2003.

A word on the PCI-X versus PCIe batt^H^H^H^H discussion... While the platform hosting the hottest developments in RAID controllers can be argued and PCI-X is still a very active platform, and I need to remind everyone again that the HBA universe is far larger than the few brands that THG likes to review, or gets kick-backs from, or whatever. And I need to point out that PCI-X has what can be a crippling performance limitation. The entire PCI bus operates only as fast as the slowest peripheral card plugged into it. It's also just half-duplex. Imagine one day you need to pop in a PCI card for a few extra USB ports or something. A PCI-X RAID controller on the same bus will then slow down to PCI speeds. PCIe has far better overall bandwidth and doesn't require as much planning to avoid performance impacts.

Tbps was well-spoken on the ECC issue and considering the numbers games your folks are involved in, ECC is not a bad idea. Some people erroneously attribute ECC to performance loss, but that is actually confusion surrounding buffering, not ECC, and in reality has much to do with server versus workstation -type workloads.

Have fun,
-B
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom