HKMG overated?

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Are we talking markets here? So, how much do 3+ Ghz Intel quads cost? And, is that even AMDs targeted market? And, is that where the mains sales are? THINK about it first. If they could they would... would what? Sell a couple thousand cpus? How bout coming right to that edge? How bout comng in at low pricing? High performance? Decent OCing, when your competitor has taken time off to catch up top you in server, and somewhat neglected DT? Or, like nVidia, which charged as they needed, ran their costs high, came in with? I gpu that was VERY gpgpu friendly, and not so for gaming, just so so. I see this as possibly happening all over again, not at the top, as AMD doesnt need to seel in the share of the market, as its small anyways, but the mid market, be competitive, and come in cheap.

When AMD had the best chip out, they couldnt conquer any major marketshare, and howd they NOT do this? Maybe as someguy7 said, threy waited on Intel, and also MORE importantly, they DID charge the same for their cpus

Whe we all heard the pricing of the 4xxx series, what was the response? At those prices, not good. What makes you think mnot having the FX chip out now is going to be a negative? And who says its NOT coming? The 4870x2 showed up later too. Theres more here than people realise, and the rumors are just rumors til shown different, but bad rumors are "if they could, they would" too

 

[yomamafor1]

I bet if I write a post on how SOI is overrated, I'll probably get a lot of attacks... :lol:

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Has anyone ever said Intel NEEDED soi, or itd fail? Has anyone said, soi is so superior, and Intel worthless without it? That their cpus would burn up without it? (excluding P4s of course)

Shaming a company for something they dont HAVE to have , and then going on about how great the thing they dont have is...what? Stupid? Ignorant? Fill in the gaP? I was told by many a person how needed, how important, and how superior HKMG was. I was also told SOI couldnt hold up, wouldnt hold up, was sooo yesterday, it was a joke, all the while chest thumping was going on, and now, its become "theory", now soi is supposedly overhyped?

Like I said, it seems people will find any reason for their cause.

 

[yomamafor1]

...or rather, people will dig up anything, relevant or irrelevant, to support their favorite company?

Please focus on something other than TDP rating. You know they don't clearly represent any real world power usage.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Hows this for digging something up? "AMD will have to wait to 2nd generation of 45nm to actually improve K10's performance by a substantial margin. 45nm SOI simply won't work well for them.

I would stay away from DDR3 for now , and use them as Nehalem "

Now who would say that? And be knocking soi?

 

[roofus]

Are we talking markets here? So, how much do 3+ Ghz Intel quads cost? And, is that even AMDs targeted market? And, is that where the mains sales are? THINK about it first. If they could they would... would what? Sell a couple thousand cpus? How bout coming right to that edge? How bout comng in at low pricing? High performance? Decent OCing, when your competitor has taken time off to catch up top you in server, and somewhat neglected DT?

Yes I agree AMD has neglected everything except the server market. If you were referring to Intel, please elaborate.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

What I find funny here is, when Barcelona came out, alot of people rightfully slammed AMD for all their balony about its performance,ocing etc, which was due, and AMD proved itself as their own worst enemy. All the people on Intels side were loving this, and went overboard with enthusiasm bashing AMD, which we all have done, and again, rightfully so.

But whats most interesting is, those who happen to reside on one side or another cant seem to figure out that theres those who dont have a side, and call it for what it is. And Im saying, people who went around telling me and others that HKMG was sooo wonderful, and soi or anything without HKMG would fail at 45nm didnt know what they were talking about. They were hyping something that wasnt true. And mostly, it was coming from the Intel "side" of course

 

[yomamafor1]

I presume the quote was from me. It would probably work better if you actually link to the page, so people wouldn't think you make that stuff up on the spot.

Yes, 45nm SOI will simply not work too well for AMD. We've seen the preliminary overclocking numbers for Deneb. 1.6V+ for 3.44Ghz? How is that working "well" for SOI? Granted, AMD themselves touted 4.0Ghz operation on air, yet we've not seen a single proof of that. If you have better results, from proven sources, I'm all ears.

http://www.dvhardware.net/article28518.html

Again, please look beyond the usual TDP = real world power consumption BS.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

The difference between AMDs successful transition aimong at the server market having K8 at the time, and i7 is yet to be seen totally, because of i7's newness, but is obviously there. Your point?

 

[roofus]

but will it play Crysis?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Yes, it was from you, from here http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/248409-28-fuddo-45nm-scheduled-launch-2009

As to your post, its as I thought, an old revision, as C2 is current, and possibly C3 for Deneb. And, need I point out the GO stepping, and what it meant?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

but will it play Crysis?

LOL, hopefully SOMETHING will, while were still on silicon anyways

 

[yomamafor1]

Yes, it was from you, from here http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/248409-28-fuddo-45nm-scheduled-launch-2009

As to your post, its as I thought, an old revision, as C2 is current, and possibly C3 for Deneb. And, need I point out the GO stepping, and what it meant?

So where's the CPU-Z shot?

You know in order to convince others, hard facts usually work better than pulling stuff out of thin air without proof.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

If youre talking about the revision, look at Shanghai for that. Weve both seen better numbers from coolaler than what youve posted. And even those were I believe C0 steppings

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

And what exactly is preventing TSMC, IBM et al? According to you and others, theyll HAVE to HAVE HKMG

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Ill point out, this is a physics thing, and not how fast itll go, but whether itll go fast enough, without burning up compared to previous nodes

In other words, what youre saying is, that IBM at 45nm, TSMC and all their partners at 40nm, wont work, or wont be aby better than the previous gen without HKMG. I say, YOU show ME proof

 

[zenmaster]

I suspected that you would go with the typical fanboy response....

They leave headroom so they can release new processors at higher speeds and then bump processors down the line.

Then why hasn't Intel ever released a Core 2 processor clocked higher than 3.33Ghz when several models have been widely reported to be able to OC to nearly 4Ghz using conventional cooling?

The reason is simple and previously explained.

Intel has a Processor in all of their desired price slots.
High-End Max Profit down to High Volume Low Profit.

Prior to the Core2Duo XEONS, AMD also had such a Server Processor LineUp and made large profits.
If AMD "COULD" produce processors that could be sold for more, they would.
In fact, It AMD's board of directors would be held libal to lawsuit if they intentionally forced a loss upon the company as you suggest they are by intentionally selling processors at both performance and price levels at which they could be sold.

It's amazing that nobody seems to have the slightest clue that AMD and Intel are companies out to make a profit and legally bound to attempt to make a profit for their shareholders.

 

[yomamafor1]

If youre talking about the revision, look at Shanghai for that. Weve both seen better numbers from coolaler than what youve posted. And even those were I believe C0 steppings

So proof?

 

[yomamafor1]

And what exactly is preventing TSMC, IBM et al? According to you and others, theyll HAVE to HAVE HKMG

Preventing? TSMC is going HKMG in 32nm, same with IBM. I don't see your point here.

By the way, HKMG is not going to just fall from the sky even if they do a dance around the fire. Large amount of R&D dollars must be spent in developing the technology, and larger amount of R&D must be spent to implement them, and produce them. For them, the money could've made a larger impact somewhere else.

 

[NMDante]

After skimming through the link you provided, jaydeejohn, I did not see in any post where anyone claimed AMD needed HKMG @45nm. All I did see were statements that AMD's 45nm would: 1) not work with SOI, 2) have issues using SOI, and 3) have to be done, since there was no other choice.

Here are a few snippets from that link you provided:

■45nm SOI simply won't work well for them.
■Everyone is optimistic about AMDs 45nm but I have too many doubts about SOI as it will be spread too thin thus they will have to clock it lower to help stop too much leakage.
■This article needs to be seen in light of the fact that AMD has announced the first 45nm Denebs and Shanghais will be SOI and the second generation of 45nm Denebs and Shanghais will have a new HK process currently being developed by IBM. That is what I believe is meant by 10.5 here. Same core, same C stepping as SOI 45nm, but new process that will allow for clocks higher than 3.0 or 3.2 (the expected high end for SOI Denebs).
■I still am holding my judgement on SOI @ 45nm until I see it. I have a bad feeling only due to the fact that AMD is trying to get a HK/MG even for their 45nm. Doesn't that strike you as strange? That they will release 45nm on SOI but soon after will have 45nm HK/MG? There is a reason and its probably cuz 45nm SOI is not going to be that great.
■They were probably locked into SOI for the first Denebs, but will go HK/MG for higher clocked Denebs plus Swift.

So, where are the statements of "AMD needing HKMG @ 45nm"? Seems like the link you provided was more about whether or not 45nm would work well, using SOI, and had very little about AMD needing HKMG @ 45nm.

Oh, and if you think I just "cherry picked" comments/statements, be my guest and find a statement that would equate to "AMD needing HKMG", as you suggest.

 

[yomamafor1]

Ill point out, this is a physics thing, and not how fast itll go, but whether itll go fast enough, without burning up compared to previous nodes

In other words, what youre saying is, that IBM at 45nm, TSMC and all their partners at 40nm, wont work, or wont be aby better than the previous gen without HKMG. I say, YOU show ME proof

Ahh... now we're changing the subject, and twisting my words while you're at it?

This is my exact quote.

45nm SOI simply won't work well for them.

I did not say it will be any better than the previous gen. I did not say it won't work. I said, "it won't work well".

Proof? How about the link I just posted showing 1.6V required for 3.44Ghz operation? I'm sure the current steppings have improved a lot, but "how far" is the improvement? Again, pulling words out of thin air is a little difficult to convince others.

By the way, I hate to say this, but it seems that you're adopting the mentality of legendary BM.

EDIT:

Here is the screenshot from Coolaler. Since you're too lazy, or was just reluctant in making this a meaningful debate, I'll have to search for the proof myself.

Again, 1.6V for 4.0Ghz? That's pretty much on par with Intel's 65nm.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Lets start with the first one. It wont work well?

I find it tragically ironic that Intel fans see this NEED, or it wont work well, or 45 soi first, and thus, it wont work well, or any other of the most recent post. TSMC doesnt agree with you not Intel. IBM doesnt agree with you nor Intel. This I find ironic. Cant you see what youre saying here? Everyone else is wrong, HKMG is the best thing since sliced bread at 45nm on down, and ONLY Intel has it, and thus, everyone else cant compete, or even do it? Isnt this hype? Isnt this misleading to put it mildly?

 

[NMDante]

Lets start with the first one. It wont work well?

I find it tragically ironic that Intel fans see this NEED, or it wont work well, or 45 soi first, and thus, it wont work well, or any other of the most recent post. TSMC doesnt agree with you not Intel. IBM doesnt agree with you nor Intel. This I find ironic. Cant you see what youre saying here? Everyone else is wrong, HKMG is the best thing since sliced bread at 45nm on down, and ONLY Intel has it, and thus, everyone else cant compete, or even do it? Isnt this hype? Isnt this misleading to put it mildly?

You obsession with HKMG is showing now, and you are misleading, by adding meaning to people's statement(s).
No where in yomamafor1 did he mention HKMG. No where. But you seem to just add your own opinion of what he wrote. I'm sorry, but I cannot just allow you to twist someone's comment to fit your argument.
This was yomamafor1's entire comment:

AMD will have to wait to 2nd generation of 45nm to actually improve K10's performance by a substantial margin. 45nm SOI simply won't work well for them.

I would stay away from DDR3 for now , and use them as Nehalem hits.

Now, where is HKMG mentioned?
You are the only one who is claiming that anyone stated that AMD needed HKMG. No one else. You created the hype and now are arguing about the same hype you created.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

So, in 1 revision, we go from 3.4 to 4.0 at the same voltage? And the secong one is still an old revision? Ill bet you wont be seeing any C1's for sale.

As to the needing, again, what do we have here? Wont work well? Like I said, tell that to TSMC, which will have a smaller node than Intel soon. Gee, maybe because of all this "proof" that it wont work well, maybe TSMC should just forego its 40nm node and wait til theyve implemented HKMG, since again, HKMG is needed for it to work WELL

 

[yomamafor1]

IBM and TSMC don't agree with me? Then why are they promising to transition to HKMG if they don't agree with me? Why are they setting a timeline for transition? Why are they spending billions of dollars on R&D when they can simply spend them on perfecting the SOI technology?

The fact is, EVERYONE agrees that HKMG is required to battle significant leakages occur at small process node. This is the reason why most foundry out there want to transition to HKMG. Its just that they have different priorities when allocating resources.