I want to set something straight

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i don't think a can buy this line of reasoning (not that you started it... just the closest button to click on). i'm not sure how long this site's been around... several years at least... long before the major flux of amd's recent success in the last year or so. all the intel owners that have been reading since then are gone, leaving but a handful? and the other (new) intel owners bought from dell? also i would imagine the majority of video editors and cad/cam users on this site would be intel owners due to the fact that many of these programs support smp and have been optimised for sse for a long time. i also think it's funny that people like crashman draw from their own expeirences as well as other posts on the forum to back up their claims about instabilities and heat problems on amd/via systems, while the responses always seem to sound like "well MY system worked ok". I don't think any of us are rooting for intel per se but are sick of hearing the amd/via solution as a flawless wonder to the pc world. amd has many great advantages over intel as most of us would agree, but it is not without some drawbacks. are you guys not seeing every other headline that say "tbird 1.1ghz fried", "amd heat problem", "graphics card not working with via such and such". it seems a bit analogous to the ide/scsi debate. ide is clearly the price/performance leader, but there are still many shortcomings to the drive solution. as long as you are aware of them, know what you are getting into and can deal with it there is no problem. (or you can just pretend that the differences and problems with ide don't exist, becuase your ide drive works fine. then tell everyone how much "better" ide is.)
 
Well in some ways i guess you are right. But it is only a problem when you first get the motherboard, after that there are no problems. I have owned Asus K7M and Asus A7V. Both were a little more difficult to setup, but once setup, ran nice and smooth. I think it is worth the little extra effort, concidering the price is so cheap. And before someone has a go at me, i am not implying that AMD is better than Intel. Indeed i would be happy with either platform. I just refuse to pay the stupid money Intel charges for their aging P6 core based CPUs. Its a lot of money for OLD technology (although it is still good). Oh by the way, remember the 810 and 820 chipsets...........what a bag of shite.
 
I agree that their marketing department seems to have questionable ability (if it even exists). Truthfully, AMD has made some very serious mistakes. They could choose to learn from Intel's example and create an optimized compiler for AMD CPU's so that all applications can get more power out of AMD. They could choose to work with chipset manufacturers/designers more closely and get some really efficient chipsets. And they could even choose to actually design their own chipsets. I haven't any idea as to why they haven't done that yet. Maybe they will eventually and they'll be produce some excellent systems. I can dream on, right?

Charles
 
Intel Pentium III 1.13mhz.....thats a nice chip...can i have one? 😱)
Intel Pentium IV......wow almost as fast as a Pentium III 1GHZ...well done Intel!!! How many stages in your next CPU.....40?
 
ya know...I am going to go ahead and come out as an Intel owner (past, present and future, now with the price cuts--P3-933) I just built two T-bird 700 systems for two friends dirt cheap, and have nothing but praise for them. However, I really get tired of all the Intel bashing (rather bitter, actually) because none of if is based in reality in that no one seems to understand WHY intel's prices are what they are. Does anyone remember what happened to their stock when they announced their revenue would be off a measly 3 PERCENT? THAT is the reason why they don't try to outprice AMD unless absolutly neccesary, they are answerable to stockholders first, geeks like us second. As far as the P4, I want one, I really do, since the software optimizations are really going to make it fly (AMD is going to have to do more pipelining if they want higher clock speeds, and I think we all know this) My main issue, however, is with Tom himself. He is the personification of everything wrong with AMD zealots. He obviously hates Intel for some reason and wants them to fail. The only remotely positive review of an Intel product was around 3 months ago, and this new one with the OEM systems is obviously skewed, again, in favor of AMD. Does he think he's doing anyone a favor with such bitterness?! Anandtech is far, far more fair and analytical in their reviews, and I would have like for Tom to put a Dell 4100 system up agains the Athlons. I think we would all have been impressed, since Dimentions have hung with T-bird systems from Falcon NW and Alienware in Video and game benchmarks. Just a thought. But, I know this may fall on def ears, but I would REALLY REALLY like to know the REAL reason why so many people in the geek community are all of a sudden on this AMD bandwagon, and bitterly hating intel, all with in a short two years. I'm pretty fair...I understand (being a business major) why Intel does what they do keep in the context of business. AMD does what they have to do to survive and grow. Great!! I have had to try to get away from my Intel-loving, AMD bashing bitterness because I have built some Athlon systems with no problems (I really won't hold stability against them, no truth) and I put some thought into it. I will, however, take one jab at the AMD zealots here. You DO realize, that Intel could have bought AMD any time they wanted, and STILL CAN, if it weren't for the Justice Department and Intel's PR department? They could have made this entire war of words moot with a really big check, but they didn't. At least give them credit for THAT...Please, I would really like to hear some honest, level-headed respones...sorry for the long post, but this is subject sensitive to me....
 
jg38141, you're definately a sad one.

I can say Goddess all that I like. Why? Well, it's my religion. Not EVERYONE on this Earth follows Christianity you know. In fact not even everyone in America does. Or have you forgotten about that little thing called "freedom of religion".

And if you have a problem with me saying Goddess because in your warped perception that somehow implies the inferiority of men, then just exactly what should the opposite side of that coin mean? By your own reasoning had I said God instead, I would have implied women to be inferior. The obvious fact is that I implied neither. It is only your own demented perceptions that say a lot more about you than they do about me.

So what Religionist AND Sexist hole did you crawl out of? And when are you going back?

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
 
Okay, I think there is one HUGE flaw in all of this bickering. The complaint is not if AMD nor Intel are better. The complaint is with people suggesting Intel or AMD systems to people putting together a system.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that a LOT of the people asking for advice on new systems have never put a system together before, or at least haven't done so in five or more years.

And when people put systems together, a LOT of times they'll save money on a cheap part here or there because they know they want a certain CPU, and everything else can go to pot for all they care as long as they can get the best CPU their money can buy.

Which is why when I suggest what to buy to people like this, I suggest an Intel system. They're simply easier to put together and start up without having anything go wrong. Yes, sometimes you can do that with an AMD system as well, but the odds of it working just fine are better for Intel systems.

Now, for people who are more experienced and know what they want ... well, they usually don't even need to ask for help. They already know their own minds. However when people like that do ask for suggestions, then I suggest AMD products because I know they'll have the experience to handle a problem if one comes up.

And THAT should be the answer to everyone's complaining and arguing. Neither system is ultimately any better or worse because both have their advantages and disadvantages. And what systems I suggest to people are the systems that I think would best fit their skill with handling computer problems. And that's that.

If anyone can find argument in any of these words that I have typed, then you really need to just get a life and open your eyes to the possability that BOTH AMD AND INTEL products have their benefits.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
 
And why is it that when an AMD fan brings up a complaint with an Intel product it is a complaint that no longer even exists in the real world?

Like the 1.13GHz P3.
Like the MTH insanity.

These things are NOT on the market. NO ONE could just go out and buy one. And if they COULD, then the problem would be with the person selling them, because they SHOULDN'T be on the market.

And yet when every Intel fan brings up a problem with AMD (or VIA, because the two are so closely related since AMD won't make their own chipsets) the problems are things that ARE on the market RIGHT NOW.

Like AGP card incompatabilities.
Like PCI card incompatabilities.
Like memory stick incompatabilities.
Like cooling system failures.
Like power supply inadiquacies.

Do you hear ANY problems like these from Intel products that are ON SALE RIGHT NOW? (At least that don't involve extreme stupidity on the part of the user: Like not using thermal paste when mounting a heat sink.)

The ONLY real complaint that AMD fans have against Intel is the oddity of the P4. Yes, it's a strange chip. Running software that hasn't been optimized it performs strangely if not just plain poorly. But running software that is optimized it performs better than any AMD chip on the market, even when that AMD chip is running their own optimized software.

So quite simply, the P4 is only a good chip to buy when you know you'll be needing it's high performance for optimized software.

Does that make Intel and better or worse than AMD? No. Does it make AMD any better or workse than Intel? Again, no. It just makes the P4 a chip that is best suited to specific software. And that leaves the Athlon a chip that is best suited for old software.

And anyone who can't admit that much is true and that the P4 can actually have it's uses to certain users, has a severe problem with being able to accept the facts... AMD or Intel fan alike.

So if we're going to debate anything, lets at least do so intelligently and with our minds at least halfway open to possabilities so that we might actually learn from each other.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
 
I read a complete dissertation on the AGP timing issues and suggestions for improvements. I don't really feel like looking it up. The rest comes from experience. Micron and nVidia, if they produce, are going to improve the market greatly. Even if VIA came out with a perfect chipset I would not purchase it because I feel they are an abusive company-they have used us all as beta testers, hence revision after revision of their chipset until we can't even keep track of it anymore. Now, if they were to be bought out by a more reputable company, I would consider them once again.

Suicide is painless...........
 
You know, people just amaze me. With a little research and a little planning, you can get a "good" system. A system that doesn't give you any problems, or very few. But people are stupid and they just buy whats cheap or what other people recommend without even researching it. So for those who have compatability problems out there....I laugh at you. it's your own fault, and i have no sympathy for you.

--SR
 
The problem with Intel, as with all other big bloated companies, is that they sat on their asses and allowed AMD to come back at them. They charge too much for their aging P6 based CPUs. Without AMD and its Athlon CPUs, Intel would have continued t rip everyone off with slighty updated old CPUs, at premium prices. The competition is now more healthy, which means we can fast CPUs at much more realitic prices. I still feel that the Pentium 4 isn't as good as it should be. It may need software to be optimized for it, but i fear that it isn't going to make a great difference. Even with 500 extra mhz, the top P4 is at the same level as the P3 1000. Intel has alot of work to do to make it work as it should, but that 20 stage pipe is a killer. i just feel that AMD thunderbird chips have a slight edge. Hopefully AMD will not sit on its arse for too long. But i will go for whoever offers the best solution, and thats AMD. I will wait for the Intel P4 to establish itself before i consider it.
 
Actually Alienware won Computer Gaming World's "Ultimate Gaming Machine" against a decked-out PIV-1.5G from Dell.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by tfbww on 01/31/01 11:28 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
Alienware SUCKS!! all OEM's SUCK!!! Custom is the way to go now and forever!!!!
---------------------------------
INTEL coppermine T is going to match the athlon + blow the p4 out the water. WELL I LIKE AMD BUT --- VIA SUCKS ---

P4 + rdram = bad

AMD + via = bad

P3t + i815 = good and stable

Dual p3 1ghz + 440bx = DREAM MACHINE

First person to get a topic banned. ABIT BP6 Lives FOREVER!!!
 
I agree with 99.99% of what you say but the PSU issue is not true as the P4 has similar requirements to the Athlon and there are a few problems with intel based systems(ie post you refered to with heat compound where the bios reported the wrong CPU temp...)
BUT you are more likely to come across one of these problems with an AMD/VIA combo(even if the biggest Problem was from AMD irongate northbridge and the Geforce cards)


M

one of the first UK T-Bird users....
 
rcf84, not a lot of ppl are adept or technically savy as you are.

there are families who buy system for their kids, housewifes who are just jumping into the computer realm and others who are absolutely all thumbs.

they all need systems and that's where OEMs fill the void.
 
yup all with a nice whoops restore disk (I have considered making my own sometimes...), we all have to remember techies are in the minority, thats why we make the money....... 🙂

M


one of the first UK T-Bird users....
 
And there are people who upgrade. They have a perfectly working P3 500 MHz and think that it's time to upgrade.

They find that buying a 1.2GHz T-Bird and a new motherboard will cost them less than buying a 1GHz P3 flip chip and slot converter (or the chip and a new motherboard). So they buy the Athlon and VIA motherboard with the intention of just replacing the old MoBo/CPU.

And then they run into a virtual nightmare as this brand new CPU and motherboard has problem after problem with the hardware that they've been using in their computer for years without ANY problems with their P3.

So they return the motherboard and CPU to get an Intel P3 and i815 mobo. And they install those. And everything works just fine.

Not everyone in this world buys complete systems brand new. In fact most people will carry over at least some hardware from their old and outdted systems because things like modems and soundcards really haven't changed all that much over the years. And it's easier to replace an old system piece by piece paying only for one part of the upgrade at a time than it is to replace the whole thing in one go.

And this is where Intel systems are champs and AMD systems are chumps.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
 
Hey- Whoa- calm down buddy. As far as the goddess comment- two things, first your religion is hardly large enough to call a religion, probobly more of a cult or sect than a recognised world wide ethos. Second- my comment was purely sarcastic. If you have insecurity issues about your worshiping women it's your issue, I however could care less. More than anything I was commenting on women drivers.

As far as AMD and Intel, I built/build many systems with both for individuals universities and businesses, and problems are about equal between both companies. Thermal protection is only a problem if you're a dumb ass and don't know how to put a heat sink on, otherwise, it shouldn't even be an issue. People say, but if your fan dies blah blah. By the time the fan dies the chip will be long obsolete. The bottom line if you do it right there are no problems with heat. If you do it wrong- you are the only one to blame, not the chip company.

ILLEGALISE BULLETS
 
I'll have you know that not only is my religion recognized by the U.S. government, but it has existed long before Christianity has. Anyone who doesn't take it seriously obviously can't see the reality beyond their nose.

Frankly, the Christian religion is mostly re-hashed bits from numerous other religions. If other people want to follow it, that's fine with me. To each their own. But I prefer to go with the original.

As for your completely confusing statement of, "If you have insecurity issues about your worshiping women it's your issue", I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Besides the fact that I don't worship either men or women, there's also the fact that I have absolutely no insecurity issues whatsoever there.

I did however find your "purely sarcastic" post to be highly insulting to both women and anyone who isn't a Christian. (Of which there are countless such other religions such as Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, etc., etc., so on and so forth.) Frankly, the number of Christians in this world is very small compared to the number of people in this world. And there are approximately as many women as there are men. So I'd suggest to you that you take this into consideration before you find any one of these people actively hostile towards your sarcasm.

And as someone who believes that people should be free to express their religious, racial, sexual, etc. preferences without the prosecution, even if just sarcasm, from people like you, I see it as important to point out your obvious social inadiquacies to you constructively in the hopes that you might change them.

If you find this constructive criticism to seem as an attack upon your person, then obviously you have some issues to work out yourself.

As for your OPINION that only an idiot would need themral protection in a CPU and that fans don't die, I would like to point out for your edification that faulty products, especially cooling fans, can and do give out long before CPUs do. And that complete systems using modern equipment shipped without the CPU and/or heat sink removed first can often result in the heat sink no longer being perfectly seated, which can result in a CPU getting quite hot.

The VAST MAJORITY of people who buy systems from OEMs don't even know enough about PC repair to even check if the heat sink is still mounted correctly. That doesn't make them in any way dumb or stupid. It merely shows their inexperience in dealing with computers in such a manner.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
 
Heh- did I strike a nerve. Actually the earliest religions, if you were going with the "original" as you say, focused on worshiping animals. Mainly non predators, as we know from cave paintings at Lascaux etc. but occasionally large predatory animals, like the cave bear. It's funny how you jumped to the defensive though. Maybe because I know so much about religion I feel it ok to make fun of it, for example I'm white and love white jokes. I was raised catholic and love catholic jokes. I am an Anthropology and Religious Studies double major focusing in religions of the middle east and India. I'm well aware of the beginnings of christianity and all they stole from other religions (ie. virgin birth etc. Zoaraster et al.) and the small number of Christians as compaired to other religions. I myself don't subscribe to any religion, except that I find it imposible to believe that there is no god/gods whatever. Mainly because I can't comprehend something physical as having no beginning. So as far as I see it something "super natural" had to start it all. This whole matter never being created or distroyed is just to out there. It had to be created. That's my oppinion of course. It is also my oppinion that women, while great for many things, can not (in general- always exceptions) drive. I'm sticking to that one.
As far as thermal protection, I was talking mainly about people who build their own computers. For those who buy them pre assembled from OEM's and they die, well no biggie, that's what warranties are for. I've never known a quality cooling fan to go out though.
I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs, except when they can't laugh at their beliefs and themselves. You take your self to seriously. I meant no harm by my statement, and only a little disrespect. At the same time I'm the first to laugh at my own beliefs and welcome others to join.
Oh, and AMD rocks. Intel rocks less.

ILLEGALISE BULLETS
 
Bravo!
I agree entirely: AMD is not the problem, VIA is. When VIA came out with their 133 Apollo chipset a while back, I jumped on it, setting my perfectly good gigabyte board (AMD 751) aside and putting the Asus board on. It stayed that way for about 6 hours. I had so many problems that I returned the Asus board to the store & put my old Gigabyte back on.

So I would repeat the advice given by Phoenix: Intel CPU, Intel chipset. AMD CPU, AMD chipset.
 
Right on!! Intel isn't a bad choice for computers, they work with few problems. Of course, thats the only good thing i can say. They work with few problems. But, their overpriced has fu*$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a fraction of that price, i've put together many athlon based systems that has best has i can tell, outperform there intel counterparts. Every problem i've encountered building athlon systems were fixed by downloading and installing the latest drivers and in one case, downgrading my directX to the next lower verson.

FACE IT PEOPLE, AMD is moving up and Intel is making room for them.
 
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