Intel, AMD, And Reseller Success: A System Builder Weighs In

[jonbach]

[citation][nom]cangelini[/nom]FWIW, I personally have encountered issues with system builders using oversized heatsinks on Intel Core i7 platforms.[/citation]

Yep, at 130W, Core i7 is a beast to cool. With the size heatsink you need to cool it quietly, you're out of the territory of just worrying about CPUs pulling out of socket, and have to also start thinking about warped motherboards, sheared mounting brackets, etc. It's pretty crazy.

Products like the Asetek LCLC absolutely took off with Core i7, since they can provide that level of cooling without the strain of weight on the motherboard itself. We went from selling a handful a month to hundreds a month, all for Core i7. But they add a new problem: many chipsets and mosfets were designed to be cooled by residual air off the CPU HSF, and the Asetek LCLC doesn't provide that. It just means you have to be more conscious of the chassis airflow.

When you get as extreme as the Cooler Master V8 or V10, a good alternative is to use Instapak foam to secure the inside of the system. We've had to use that with some heavier video cards as well. Instapak doesn't protect from minor movements that would cause an AMD unseat, but it does protect from large movements that can warp motherboards or break HSF mounts.

Jon Bach
President - Puget Systems
http://www.pugetsystems.com

 

[Guest]

As a system builder, we used to use AMD. They make a fine chip. When it goes bad, you RMA it, how long before you get a replacement? What does the customer do in the meantime?
Again, I say AMD makes a fine chip, and seldom do they go bad, but the boards do. A MB goes bad, don't care who makes it, you RMA it, how long before you get a replacement? Asus was 4 months, MSI 4 Weeks, Gigabyte... well we received several boards back from them that had blackened USB ports on them.
An Intel chip goes bad, we make a phone call, one is delivered next day by 11AM.
An Intel MB goes bad, we make a phone call, one is delivered next day by 11AM.
Accountability, Intel has it, AMD, no thanks.

 

[bigdaddycool]

I have a question to Tom's Hardware. Why did you guys publish this article? Why did you choose to take on this System Builders comments to publish.

You only need to read through all our comments..... I'd say most of us are all system builders. This guy in this article has no idea what he is saying. There is no justification on any side of ANY of his arguements for using an Intel.

This article FAILS.

 

[bigdaddycool]

I have one other point here to make. This "System Builder" from what I've read through the comments is using AFTERMARKET heatsinks and complaining that AMD's are damaged more during transit because of this.

Mate seriously........ so your not even shipping these with the stock heatsink/coolers ? ...... yet your blaming the chip company for your failure to use the proper heatsink/fan supplied with it.

That sort of blame should go on you for FAILING as a system builder and towards the actual MODEL of aftermarket heatsink/fan you've placed on there.

So if you are shipping them with aftermarket equipment, your comments about Intel/AMD are null and void.

It hurts my brain seriously to think this guy is "representing" system builders with his comments. On a topic so large, that hurts my brain.

😀.... FAIL

 

[cangelini]

[citation][nom]bigdaddycool[/nom]I have a question to Tom's Hardware. Why did you guys publish this article? Why did you choose to take on this System Builders comments to publish.You only need to read through all our comments..... I'd say most of us are all system builders. This guy in this article has no idea what he is saying. There is no justification on any side of ANY of his arguements for using an Intel.This article FAILS.[/citation]

There is a huge, massive, overwhelming difference between someone who builds systems and a system builder. As an enthusiast, I can say I build systems, sure. But I don't do $100,000+ per quarter in sales, get vendor support, or have to stand behind the machines I build with a warranty.

Picking a chip off the shelf at Fry's and putting it in your PC at home is well within the realm of the enthusiast, but it's not what Jon is talking about here.

And the point of the piece is to stimulate some interesting weekend discussion for those of us stuck in the lab benchmarking upcoming processors to be launched in the next two weeks ;-) If you disagree, that's fine, but understand the context first!

 

[bigdaddycool]

cangelini: Granted. I am not a enthusiast however. Tis my job.

The article might as well be based around an "enthusiast" because the guy has invalid remarks, comments and basis for his arguments.

So I would say, this guy is NOT a System Builder but a Enthusiast.

"Intel, AMD, And Reseller Success: An Enthusiast Weighs In"

I would dare to say this guy uses ASUS and Seagate/Maxtor to go with the computers 😀 MORE FAIL

 

[Guest]

Anytime an american company comes in and mops the floor with EU competition the socialist governments try to handicap. Fact of the matter is that AMD started a price war it could not possibly win because it knew it had inferior products. Getting into a price war with Intel is like having a price war against Wal-Mart, you are simply not going to win. AMD is floundering due to stupid business decisions, not because Intel is cheating.

 

[mhdna]

This article is a not a fair fight, after all this is a Intel supplier !!!

I'm Portuguese an as the Puget Systems in Portugal (a EU country) the major of the suppliers are only Intel suppliers and do not have AMD products at all (some say "out of stock", other just don't have).

I like AMD for the price/value, reliability and a good performance.
And AMD give just that to me, i don't want to pay 40% more money to have 7% more performance and that's what Intel gives to you (and what most of the Portuguese suppliers make you pay for, because if you want a AMD solution you have to search a lot in the market to find it)

Most of the costumers don't know what is a processor and the suppliers take advantage of it to make them buy what they want to sell, they don't ask the costumer if he want a cheaper solution that let them work/play/surf/etc. for a little less money.

In the end all stays the same Intel plays AMD stays.

 

[curnel_D]

[citation][nom]bigdaddycool[/nom]I have a question to Tom's Hardware. Why did you guys publish this article? Why did you choose to take on this System Builders comments to publish.You only need to read through all our comments..... I'd say most of us are all system builders. This guy in this article has no idea what he is saying. There is no justification on any side of ANY of his arguements for using an Intel.This article FAILS.[/citation]
This 'guy' has managed to start and stay successful in a very competitive high end boutique market, making many more computers and much more money than you do. Because of this experience, his opinions are not only valid, but quite a bit more valued than yours.

He hasn't started a company to compete in the mainstream market. He build's machines for a very specific target group who demand that their PC be the best of the best in speed, acoustics, and quality. To do this, using the awful oem heat sinks is out of the question. And it's not that it's just his opinion that you're going against, but every other single boutique builder will have the same problems. All you've managed to do is come through, say you speak for 'most of us', while pointing out valid remarks and marking them invalid in your mind because you personally refuse to see the scope in which this article was written.

 

[Proximon]

People seem to be putting way too much into this.

This is a statement of opinion and business principles from a successful builder. I always enjoy speaking with such people, because they ALWAYS have the best feel for product reliability.

I think it's also a good lesson for some folks. The favored parts used by various system builders are driven just as much by marketing as value or performance.

 

[azxcvbnm321]

Humm, but why focus on a system builder that operates only in the high end performance market? Of course this guy is not going to use AMD chips, if money is not a concern and you only want performance, then I understand why there's no need to even look at AMD.

Now why not interview a budget computer only system builder? This guy would say, "Every cent counts, my customers aren't rich, they demand value and that's why I use primarily AMD chips, sure 40% of my sales are still Intel, but I wish Intel would price their chips more competitively. Intel has a lot to learn from AMD, which has been deeply involved in the value segment for years now. AMD understands what value is, they know how to price chips to get interest when value for $$$$ is THE key stat. When the Intel sales guys come to visit me and ask what they can do, I tell them lower prices. They laugh and I hardly ever hear from them. I don't think they appreciate my business, I'm not building $4000 computers, I'm in the trenches selling computers for under $800 to the masses. These Intel sales guys are pretty boys, they don't like to meet with the low end builders like me, they want to meet with the elitist $5000 system builder, but I'll tell you something, I sell 5 times the amount of that $5000 guy. I sell more chips in a quarter than that elitist sells in a year!"


Now where is this article? Where is the value system builder who sells to the mainstream and actually sells more chips and is more relevant today? I would NEVER buy a $5000 computer, why would you in today's world? Even if I had a billion dollars, but yet this article focuses on the high end performance builder that does little volume and is out of touch with the mainstream. Who are the people responsible for this article? Who was the editor who approved this slant?


The truth is that AMD doesn't have the money to cater to the ultra elitist system builder. These guys who pay you a visit and shoot the shit cost money! You think they like chatting with you? It's their job dude, they're nice because they have to be. AMD can't afford these ass-kissers, it's not that they don't want to or haven't thought of the idea of more support, but when you're losing money and have billions in debt, you need to set priorities. Ass-kissing sales reps go to the bottom of the priority chart.

 

[Guest]

The biggest beef this guy has is that he claims damage occurs during shipment to his products. He needs to contact his UPS rep and discuss how to properly ship. He is charging twice what a comparable Dell or HP cost, he does need to nickel and dime on the cost of cardboard. I haven't heard of the major OEM's having more problems with AMD vs INTEL products.

 

[rocky1234]

Ok I have to say one thing to the one that compared that system builders computer price to neweggs system prive dude get a clue please. Of coarse newegg is gonna be cheaper always will be 90% of the time you may ask why & assume right away the system builder is cheating his/her customers. Well I have to tell you for the most part that is not true yes there are some out there that do have that goal in mind. Here is the reason why we have to charge more ready for it. It is because we pay higher prices for our parts thats right we pay more for our parts a lot more why because we order in smaller amounts so our suppliers charge a higher price but if a place like newegg orders this same parts from our supplier they order by the pallet so they get a big break in the price. So in a way the smaller system builders end up paying through th enose so these big companies can get lower prices. I know this for a fact because I own a computer store & I deal with suppliers everyday & have out right asked pretty much every supplier why we pay more only 2 out of my 15 suppliers asnwered my question & it was what I have just said so dude before you run your mouth off about newegg being cheaper do some research please. Well sell both Intel & AMD from the low end to the extreme we try to let our customers know what each platform has to offer & we let them decide what they want. Yes it takes more time to do it this way but the customer does get all the facts to make their minds up on what they want to me it sounds like the guy that talked in this article just dont want ot take the time to work with the customer & give them all the options. Hey I could be wrong on that one.lol

Anyways we sell both Intel & AMD for the most part we sell a few more Intels than AMD systems. Yes we sell at a higher price than most internet sales websites do but that goes back to what I said in the last paragraph about having to pay much higher prices for the same products that newegg does or any other web based sales site & for that matter HP,Dell etc etc. We make less than 15% markup on our systems so its not like we make a lot we also only use higher end boards & stuff because we offer a 3 year warranty with our systems I guess we could use cheaper parts & only offer a 1 year but that's not gonna happen.

PS: to those that are gonna try to point out that there are grammar errors in this comment I posted here no need as I just don't care what you think about my spelling or grammar I'm not here to impress you lol

 

[Guest]

Saying Intel is more reliable than AMD is like saying that Macs are more reliable than PC. We get enough fanboy drivel in the comments section, we don't need an entire article of it.

 

[Guest]

486 DX2/66
Pentium 60
K6
K7
Celeron 400
Pentium III
Athlon 64
Core 2 E8400

I've always gone for the sweet-spot at the time. AMD vs Intel is a total waste of time and just a nice excuse for fan-boy rants. I'll continue to research each upgrade to get the best that I can afford.

 

[Lans]

When this article is framed around the EU ruling, I can't help but go back and look at old reviews. So it wasn't all rosy for AMD between 2002 and 2007... Seems like the Pentium 4s held on early on and gave away around 2004/2005 then Intel had nothing until June 2007 with Conore.

Pentium EE Squeezes 3.73 GHz Out of NetBurst

But even when the Intel CPU is overclocked at 4.26 GHz, the dualcore Athlon 64 FX processors still offer better results for most applications. Sure, the new Extreme Edition CPU is competitive, but it does not outperform the Athlon 64 FX-60, even at 3.73 GHz.

Intel's 65 nm Process Breathes Fire into Double-Core Extreme Edition

Be that as it may, AMD has the lead, both in performance and performance-per-watt benchmarks.

Anyways, with the EU ruling in mind I think it is much more interesting to see a poll of users who built AMD and who built Intel machines in each segment during the time period of 2002 and 2007 versus system builders. That is the closet thing I can think of to show if what system builders really built/offered is inline with customer demand... I am assuming people that pay a hefty price for pre-built high end machines actually go dig up reviews similar to perspective systems they are looking at, of course. At least I do (especially when I am about to build a new machine).

I realize that this opinion of one person/system builder as others have pointed but I still found it enlightening for, again, the current market. However it does not address the EU's ruling in any meaningful way. I doubt people really expect to see any change going future with just EU's ruling (AMD is not going to get 1 cent of that $1.45 billion for one thing even though it definitely suffered, if ruling holds).

Chris, I would love to see a follow up article that focuses much more on the EU ruling and its merits. I feel this one doesn't really do it any justice (for reasons found in this post and previous one).

 

[scryer_360]

@biddaddycool: Puget Systems, in the piece, mentions that it is a performance builder. Which is not, as you said, what your company is.

All in all I agree with the points Mr. Bach has stated. And this is where many of the comments that have been made are wrong: for a business consumer (and lets face it, businesses would consume most high end workstations), there is way more to it than just price/performance. The fact that the processor could skip the socket, as I myself have personally had happen to one of my AM2 machines, can be more devastating to a business than the computer costing an extra few hundred dollars. If the computer arrives DOA, it can mean you lose THOUSANDS in sales, because you were unable to operate.

Also, he is right about Intel being more proactive in reaching out to builders, and in my case, retailers. I have an Intel rep come in the store MONTHLY, but I am the only person who even knows the AMD reps name, and no one has met him (to even call him a "rep" would be a stretch). Keeping your brand in front of the salesmans mind, in in front of the people's minds, is (especially for consumers who aren't as invested in this as those of us who build our own) just as important as having a good product. And I don't have to tell you the majority of consumers don't (to their disadvantage) build their own.

I remember when the P4 was still for sale, and the Athlon X2 was kicking its but in both sales and performance. I still had customers, especially business customers, who would come in and only want the Intel chips despite my warnings about them being hotter and slower and costing them more for energy. People were just so comfortable with the Intel brand that it'd take a monumental force to get them to buy something else. I once had a customer tell me he'd buy the AMD machine IF and only IF I gave him the Intel machine with it. And he was being serious.

Now I do agree that Intel has used some unethical tactics in selling. For large system vendors, showing off the Athlon X2 being in their system and waling about its performance benefits would of been great, but somehow it never materialized. I've even heard from my Dell and HP reps that there were rumors of Intel announcing rebates AFTER their respective companies had already bought the chips, and somehow, it was always close to a time and date when AMD was trying to make a sale.

And I also agree that without AMD, Intel would still be trying to peddle Pentium 3's for massive markups. But AMD needs to do more than just make a great product, it hasn't been enough to just have the best product since maybe the 1920s. They need to market it, to brandish their name at sporting events and get representatives out to stores and builders. Intel even advertises in NASCAR, the last sport that you'd think cared at all about computers, or the twenty first century, but they do. AMD doesn't sponsor crap. Only once have I even seen an AMD pen in my store, sent to us by AMD. And it wasn't even sent to US: someone just left theirs (where they got it, I dunno).

Mr. Bach is correct on all fronts. The Phenom II is a fantastic product in the price/performance category, AMD just needs to market the hell out of it and get it into people's heads. When was the last time you saw a Core i7 commercial? I seem to see one daily. But I haven't YET seen any advertising for Phenom II anywhere but Newegg. And i think those are actually Newegg's sales ads.

 

[LLJones]

I have an entire AMD/ATI system. My next build is going to be all AMD/ATI. I do however find some fault with AMD in regards to marketing. I have seen lots of intel ads, not one AMD ad. Even the apple ads are indirectly acknowledging that pc's exist.

AMD needs to buy an ad on Superbowl or something to get the message out. Their campaign doesn't need to be super fancy or expensive. It just has to say, Hi, were AMD, check us out, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Hyundai(AMD) can't build a car anywhere near as good as Ferrari(Intel) yet through good marketing, they manage to sell one hell of a lot of cars. As a result of this, they are moving up the ladder with the quality and performance of their cars.

 

[Guest]

Who really goes to these system builders? Clueless rich kids, that's about it... Everyone else buys OEM, builds it themselves, etc... If you count Apple as a high-end, overpriced boutique, then they would pretty much be the only one with any market share. This guy has about .000001% of the total market, his opinion isn't anymore valid than the average Tom's reader, atleast we actually keep up with the new tech, whether AMD sends a sales rep to our houses or not...

 

[Guest]

@lljones: Hyundai vs. Ferrari? That's more than a bit of an exaggeration, more like Porsche vs. Ferrari, or perhaps just Honda vs. Toyota.

 

[cangelini]

[citation][nom]Lans[/nom][/citation]

Thanks for the feedback Lans. Actually, for the reason you mentioned (AMD not receiving one cent of the ruling), I actually see very little effect moving forward. But maybe that's just me. If anything, the whole situation strikes me a vindication for AMD's charges all along and little more.

 

[curnel_D]

[citation][nom]PorscheFangirl[/nom]@lljones: Hyundai vs. Ferrari? That's more than a bit of an exaggeration, more like Porsche vs. Ferrari, or perhaps just Honda vs. Toyota.[/citation]
Heh, I'd hardly call these processors exotics. 😛 So lets stick with the Honda vs Toyota, and leave the porshe vs Lotus vs Ferarri for the real exotic processors. 😉 (And we all know lotus kicks all the ass, porshcefangirl. 😛)

 

[Spathi]

I still use a p4 HT 478 @ 3.2 (2004) and I am still happy with it, when I got a HD3850 all the other people that were left in the forums that had PC's that worked OK were some Pentium M (2004) and some AMD x2 (2005-2006) gamers. AMD processors from before 2005 stuttered too much in games and had bad chipset bugs.

I don't think it matters now, todays CPU's are probably fast enough to survive for 5+ years.

 

[curnel_D]

Lets hope not. [citation][nom]spathi[/nom]I still use a p4 HT 478 @ 3.2 (2004) and I am still happy with it, when I got a HD3850 all the other people that were left in the forums that had PC's that worked OK were some Pentium M (2004) and some AMD x2 (2005-2006) gamers. AMD processors from before 2005 stuttered too much in games and had bad chipset bugs.I don't think it matters now, todays CPU's are probably fast enough to survive for 5+ years.[/citation]

 

[sonofliberty08]

AMD cpu selling good on server section because server user are mostly knowledge computer user and they know what they need . Intel cpu selling good on personal computer section because home user has many computer noobs and retarded fanboy that trust for intel ad and they don't know what they really need . oh i work in the intel only computer shop b4 , there are no single AMD product in the shop because the shop get annual sponsor by the Intel . that's a secret that not much people know about it .