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News Intel Completes Development of 1.8nm and 2nm Production Nodes

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R&D of a device is 100x harder than putting it into HVM. It takes ~6 years from the design board to a finished process. It takes about 6 months to ramp to HVM levels.
That's kind of what I thought. The design can't be considered "done", until the process can hit all its performance, longevity, cost, and manufacturability targets. Those are design-level issues - addressing them can't be deferred until the production stage.

I gather most of the production challenges are handled by equipment vendors, like ASML and their respective component makers. There should be substantial hurdles on that end, as well. Most of which you thankfully don't have to worry about.
 
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AFAIK Dalian was the only Intel fab in China, it was used for NAND as it was limited in manufacturing process and has subsequently been sold to SK Hynix. Nothing in this announcement has anything to do with advanced manufacturing in China. I'd assume they still have their packaging business, but that is rarely discussed so I'm not sure if that is changing as well.

Horse Creek is already being made on Intel 4, and while that's nowhere near as complex as one of their x86 chips it's a good sign that the node is well on its way to mass production. If they are to have any hope of 2024/2025 for 20a/18a it makes sense that everything would already be nailed down. These nodes will also likely require High-NA EUV machines so that may end up being the delaying factor.
 
AFAIK Dalian was the only Intel fab in China, it was used for NAND as it was limited in manufacturing process and has subsequently been sold to SK Hynix.
...
I'd assume they still have their packaging business
...
For sure they at least do packaging in China, because the two manufacturing location codes on Alder Lake CPUs are China and Vietnam.


Horse Creek is already being made on Intel 4, and while that's nowhere near as complex as one of their x86 chips it's a good sign that the node is well on its way to mass production.
Yeah, though production was announced a couple months ago and yet the boards still cannot be ordered.
: (

These nodes will also likely require High-NA EUV machines so that may end up being the delaying factor.
The article said:

"Intel originally planned to use ASML's Twinscan EXE scanners with a 0.55 numerical aperture (NA) optics for its 1.8 angstroms node, but because it decided to start using the technology sooner, it will have to rely on extensive use of existing Twinscan NXE scanners with 0.33 NA optics, as well as EUV double patterning."

It's not a long article. I don't get why people comment without reading the whole thing.
 
I gather most of the production challenges are handled by equipment vendors, like ASML and their respective component makers. There should be substantial hurdles on that end, as well. Most of which you thankfully don't have to worry about.

That isn't entirely how it goes, either. In R&D you generally have a bunch of bleeding edge and sometimes prototype tools that technically meet the specs you're after, but it's up to your engineering staff to figure out how to use the machinery. You may have a plasma etcher from Hitachi but it doesn't have the vertical etch profile you're after. It's up to your own engineers to figure out the best chemistry and RF freq/power to get the job done for your process steps. My dielectric doesn't etch the same way Samsung's does, and those are both different to how plasma reacts with TSMC's dielectric layers.

The vendors will of course help with anything you ask them to, but there's a reason we employ over 3000 phd engineers in the same building.
 
The article said:
"Intel originally planned to use ASML's Twinscan EXE scanners with a 0.55 numerical aperture (NA) optics for its 1.8 angstroms node, but because it decided to start using the technology sooner, it will have to rely on extensive use of existing Twinscan NXE scanners with 0.33 NA optics, as well as EUV double patterning."​

It's not a long article. I don't get why people comment without reading the whole thing.
The article is making assumptions not based in facts as Intel has not confirmed what is being used for volume production. The last public info was from an earnings report which said 20a was likely to be internal whereas 18a would be for all. The implication here would be cost, and two big things that drive up cost are multipatterning and yields. High-NA will reduce the amount of multipatterning which inherently improves yields. This means it's entirely possible Intel is planning volume production of 18a using high-NA machines whereas 20a would not. Of course the article could also end up being correct, but at this point in time it's certainly not guaranteed.
 
"Wang Rui, president and chairman of Intel China, said at an event that the company had finalized the development of its Intel 18A (18 angstroms-class) and Intel 20A (20 angstroms-class) fabrication processes."
Wait, does that mean they are developing/manufacturing this in China? If so, isn't that a national security threat? I thought we were trying to keep the latest and greatest semiconductor tech. out of their hands for precisely that reason.

Intel has large sales and marketing team in China. That's because semiconductors are one of Intel's (and US's) biggest exports to China. They also have some assembly and testing facilities in China. But Intel currently doesn't have any silicon fab in China.

On the other hand, TSMC has two fabs in China (one in Jiangsu and the other one in Shanghai). Also, Samsung has two massive fabs in Xi’an, China. So out of the 3 leading chip manufactures, Intel is the only one that doesn't have any silicon fabs in China.

Sources:
  1. TSMC Fabs - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited
  2. Samsung’s memory plants in China face uncertainty as Xi’an lockdown adds pressure to chip supply chain | South China Morning Post (scmp.com)
  3. List of Intel manufacturing sites - Wikipedia
 
I think it's more like:

Intel (old)Intel (new)TSMC
14 nm
10 nm
10 nm (SF)
10 nm (ESF)7N7/N6
7 nm4N5
3N4
20AN3
18AN2
Your thoughts are closer to reality but may not be 100% correct based on what we know. The Intel 4 is actually closer to (or better than) TSMC N3, instead of TSMC N5. Here is what Wiki Chip has to say about Intel 4 HP library:

"...Based on most of the recent publically available foundry data, Intel 4 HP cells appear denser than TSMC N5 HP and are likely closer to or better than TSMC N3 HP cells and denser than Samsung’s 3GAE... (Link: A Look At Intel 4 Process Technology – Page 2 – WikiChip Fuse )"
 
This is "Intel 20A", not "20 angstrom", "Angstrom class", nor 2nm. The branding is designed to trick people into thinking it's related to size, when really it no longer has connection to any kind of sizing, whatsoever.
It's not as bad as when comcast writes Mbps as MBPS or when a phone salesman straight tells you that Mbps stands for "Megabytes per second" which would be 8x faster than what they are actually selling ... but it's almost as bad. I'd still put it in the to 10 computer marketing lies. I'd say it's slightly better than Seagate confusing a judge into letting them redefine the measurement 1 GigaByte as 1 Billion Bytes, and slightly worse than Intel letting their partners pretend Optane SSDs counted as RAM. So, and about the same badness as Intel's P/E-core mismarketing nightmare.

That said I'm already getting lost on what TSMC process Intel 20A is supposed to compete against. IIRC It will go up against and probably slightly behind TSMC N4 "4nm".
If I remember right, Intel wishes they could be competitive with the following:

IntelTSMC
10 nm = Intel 7"7nm "N7
7nm = Intel 4NFF7+ or N6
Intel 3N5
Intel 20AN5+ or N4
Intel 18AN3

Not true. Our Tom's Hardware itself (and many more silicon specailists including wikichip) published detailed reports on Intel 4/20A/18A. And they all state one thing very clearly.

IntelTSMC
Intel 4On par TSMC N3. Intel HP libraries are faster than TSMC N3 (more frequency+performance). Meteor lake isn't gonna be crawling!!!
Intel 3Better than TSMC N3
Intel 20A (2024)On par TSMC N2 (2026 only. 2 years too late)
Intel 18A (2025)Better than TSMC N2

Truth is, Intel is all set to blow past competitors starting 2024. This year they'll be on par competing with AMD and TSMC with Intel 4. Next year, they're taking the lead! AMD is gonna get slaughtered!
 
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I'm no fan of Intel, but TSMC does the same thing. N5, N5+ and N4 are actually the same node size. There isn't a great way to compare the two with current metrics TBH. Density would be a better way, though still not prefect, but I doubt we will get a better apples to apples way to compare nodes anytime soon.

Exactly. TSMC N7 was equal to Intel 10nm!!! And not a single AMD fanboy batted an eyelid. :)

Now that Intel is taking a lead in node power/performance/density with their 20A/18A, all these people seem to be having issues with naming!!! Hilarious :tearsofjoy:

Classic case of doube-standards!

Read history fellas. Intel node naming has always been more accurate than TSMC's node naming.
 
Looks like vaporware to me. By the time Intel brings this to manufacture (if ever) others will still be ahead.

Sorry to disappoint you guys. But meteor lake engineering samples are already up and running (including OSs like windows & linux). And this was 6 months ago. Now they're very close to volume ramp. And AMD doesn't even have an answer to Meteor Lake!!!!!!!!!!!! Cos their Zen 5 is a 2024 Q3 product.

Meteor Lake on intel 4 is going against a Zen 4 Refresh on TSMC N5. It's already starting to look very very bad for AMD.
 
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Not that easy considering how long it tool Intel to get 10nm working.

Oh pls. It took more than 35 years and many disasters for AMD to step up their game against Intel. And considering Intel's current progress, it's safe to say, they're going to crush AMD starting next year (20A Arrow Lake) and TSMC a year after that with 18A. AMD is finished starting 2025.

But, TSMC won't be affected much by Intel as it takes decades to get users to migrate to new foundries. It's like getting windows software developers to migrate to linux software development. Very Hard. But Intel will definitely have a lead on the node technology which is more than sufficient to crush AMD. And thats exactly what pat gelsinger wants.
 
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This is about Intel and Intel did have trouble getting 10nm to work, what in my statement was wrong?

Not at all. Considering AMD took many many decades to get their basic microarchitecture right, Intel losing 5 years on a couple of nodes is no big deal at all.

Even during these 5 years of failure, they held on to their client CPU market share, launched a new dGPU. And they built new advanced nodes that are far ahead of TSMC N3 and even the upcoming N2. The future is looking extremely good for Intel. Not so for AMD!!! 😢

Remember this. Intel Client CPU market share is still at 80% inspite of it's tremendous failures! They lost some ground in server space and will lose more. But that too stops late next year or early 2025 with intel taking the lead in PPW.

And the most sad and shockingly hilarious piece of news is, AMD has a "total" of 9% market share in discrete graphics segment. The very very new entrant Intel has 6% which is extremely good considering how troublesome their graphics drivers were. And Nvidia commands a solid 85% market share!

Considering Intel's recent progress, AMD is currently just a fly in Intel's Windshield. And it's getting wiped out sooner than we think.
 
I was debating whether to reply, because I can tell you seem have a lot invested in Intel's success. I'm not partisan, in that the only thing I really care about is a vibrant market with competitive and diverse options. So, as long as x86 continues to dominate, that just means I want both AMD and Intel to stay in the fight. I don't care too much who's on top.

Even during these 5 years of failure, they held on to their client CPU market share, launched a new dGPU. And they built new advanced nodes that are far ahead of TSMC N3 and even the upcoming N2. The future is looking extremely good for Intel.
We can't ignore a couple key things about the last 5 years:
  • Cloud computing has been growing at an unprecedented pace - a rising tide lifts all boats.
  • Intel had unrivaled manufacturing capacity - giving them a captive market, simply because no one else could satisfy the demand.
  • Server platforms take longer to bring to market, because OEMs and customers are more conservative - EPYC design wins didn't start to ramp until Rome (Zen 2).
  • Server and laptop designs have a higher support burden, and it takes time to ramp that capacity - this has limited design wins until recently.
  • Pandemic fueled unprecedented demand for both client & server chips.
For many reasons, AMD's growth was constrained beyond the merits of its products. For this and other reasons, Intel continued to enjoy strong revenues and profits, even since the launch of Zen.

Heck, even to this day, my employer will still buy only Intel machines. Some customers - especially corporate customers - can be extremely resistant to change. We mostly don't buy servers any more, however. So, our backend is running in the cloud, and quite likely on some EPYC instances or whatever else Microsoft and Amazon use.

And the most sad and shockingly hilarious piece of news is, AMD has a "total" of 9% market share in discrete graphics segment.
Agreed. Nvidia is firing on all cylinders, though. RDNA 2 seemed to catch them on raster performance, but Nvidia came back strong in the RTX 4000 series.

If AMD had stuck with a monolithic die, I think RX 7000 would seem more impressive. However, I think their investment into chiplet technologies will probably pay off for them. If you go through their RDNA 3 launch slides, they're keen to point out how they increased chiplet communication efficiency and bandwidth density about 5x and 10x of what their CPUs have achieved so far.

R54kND9CT3pNze2RKjJodb.jpg


u2KPnQXJg2FditcH45tXUb.jpg

Source: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-rdna-3-gpu-architecture-deep-dive-the-ryzen-moment-for-gpus

The very very new entrant Intel has 6% which is extremely good
Ah, but we don't know how much of that is bound up in the channel or going to OEM customers. Let's wait and see how the market share looks like for the following quarters, before we pronounce Intel's achievement.

Considering Intel's recent progress, AMD is currently just a fly in Intel's Windshield. And it's getting wiped out sooner than we think.
An important detail you're ignoring is that Intel has a massive capital liability, in the form of its fabs. They're dragging down its profits, especially if they're not running at full capacity. AMD doesn't have that.

Also, I'm looking at AMD's annual revenues, and they're growing pretty nicely, while Intel's have stayed flat (except for a drop in 2022). In 2022 AMD's gross revenues were 37.4% of Intel's. That's much too big for anyone to ignore.
 
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Oh pls. It took more than 35 years and many disasters for AMD to step up their game against Intel. And considering Intel's current progress, it's safe to say, they're going to crush AMD starting next year (20A Arrow Lake) and TSMC a year after that with 18A. AMD is finished starting 2025.

But, TSMC won't be affected much by Intel as it takes decades to get users to migrate to new foundries. It's like getting windows software developers to migrate to linux software development. Very Hard. But Intel will definitely have a lead on the node technology which is more than sufficient to crush AMD. And thats exactly what pat gelsinger wants.

AMD was so bad at fabricating chips they sold their fabs and got someone else to make their chips nut this is about Intel tech not AMD and TSMC.
 
didn't Biden say it was american innovation ? i think he lyes and it's from taiwan not America ... /

Its really just ASML. ASML Holding N.V. is a Dutch multinational corporation founded in 1984. ASML specializes in the development and manufacturing of photolithography machines. Intel and TMSC both are partners to ASML. ASML control the market. Got nothing to do with Taiwan (other than TMSC is a partner of ASML), without ASML no one goes anywhere fast. China is banned from importing advanced machines from ASML so they cant create chips like TMSC can. China has to research the technology themselves. Thus China has no TSMC of their own.


Intel are partners with ASML to develop new technology for better chips. Really has nothing to do with TSMC or Taiwan. Everything to do with Intel and ASML a Dutch company.

China is still using DUV from ASML and researching DUV/EUV machines. Dutch government said it would take steps to cut off China from ASML's older deep ultraviolet lithography (DUV) machines. While DUV equipment is made by a variety of suppliers including Canon and Nikon, ASML remains the sole supplier of EUV machines.

Chinese semiconductor giant SMIC has reportedly been manufacturing 7-nanometer chips since last year, the best sign yet that China has found a way to develop advanced components despite US efforts to curb the country's homegrown silicon capabilities. This is expect to be using DUV machines and poor yields. This is also rumored to be a copy of TSMC 7nm. TSMC's early 7nm lithography nodes did not utilise EUV technology, newer versions of 7nm and newer, smaller, nodes make heavy use of this technology.
 
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Its really just ASML. ASML Holding N.V. is a Dutch multinational corporation founded in 1984. ASML specializes in the development and manufacturing of photolithography machines. Intel and TMSC both are partners to ASML. ASML control the market. Got nothing to do with Taiwan (other than TMSC is a partner of ASML), without ASML no one goes anywhere fast.
That's like saying the quality of a restaurant is determined entirely by who makes its ovens and kitchen equipment. In other words, complete nonsense.

Cutting-edge semiconductor fabrication involves many thousands of precisely tuned parameters, including hundreds of materials and chemicals. The lithography machines don't dictate much about which steps you do in which order, which materials you use, how thick to make your layers, how long or what temperatures to use. It just does whatever you program it to do.

That's not to diminish the machines ASML builds, but it were really so simple, why the heck do you think such differences existed between various chip manufacturers, over the past decade or more?
 
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That's like saying the quality of a restaurant is determined entirely by who makes its ovens and kitchen equipment. In other words, complete nonsense.

Cutting-edge semiconductor fabrication involves many thousands of precisely tuned parameters, including hundreds of materials and chemicals. The lithography machines don't dictate much about which steps you do in which order, which materials you use, how thick to make your layers, how long or what temperatures to use. It just does whatever you program it to do.

That's not to diminish the machines ASML builds, but it were really so simple, why the heck do you think such differences existed between various chip manufacturers, over the past decade or more?

You can't make any of the best chips without an EUV machine and only ASML b
uilds them. Thus you can stop countries like China manufacturing the latest chips by stopping them from getting EUV machines. No one but ASML has developed them. The EUV machine is the hardest step in the process by far which is why China is stuck at 7nm. The limit of DUV machines, machines they will ban for export to China. This is why they have banned export of EUV machines to China. Thus it forces China to develop the hardest step on their own. This could hold them back over +10 years. ASML took 13 years just of EUV. Imagine the set back this is for China.

Without ASML technology China cannot have its version of TSMC for a long time. They cant compete but can still make chips for washing machines and lower tech CPUs and GPUs. This means they cant compete with Intel, AMD or nVidia. Locks them out of the high technology part of the market and harms their military development.

Meanwhile Intel is free to work with ASML without issues. Can develop much more advanced chips. AMD can work with TSMC. nVidia can do the same.

So basically ASML controls the whole market. Has become the world most important company.

This issue follows the story of how long it took China to make a ball point pen.

The problem was two-fold. China simply didn't have a machine with the precision to cut a tiny ball-bearing accurately. While it supplied the world with 80% of its ballpoint pens, all the balls came from Switzerland.

It also doesn't produce steel of high enough quality to make the casing that surrounds the ball. It all comes from Germany or Japan.

On January 21, 2016, the Hong Kong Economic Journal declared:

"The day China can produce a 100% homemade ball pen will be the day it truly qualifies as a first-class industrial power."

Yesterday, Taiyuan Iron and Steel announced it had cracked it. In June last year, to be exact.

Dated Jan 12, 2017.

Ball point pen was invented in 1888.


The limit on DUV is N5 but with poor yield. EUV increases the yields.

SMEE is about 20 years behind ASML.

 
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This is about Intel and Intel did have trouble getting 10nm to work, what in my statement was wrong?
They didn't have trouble with making it work, they had trouble with making it financially more sound than the 14nm (add huomurus numbers of + here) node, that's what yield basically means, if you have a node that is super cheap to make because it has near perfect yield and still sells great then your incentive to move to something more expensive is extremely low.
We can't ignore a couple key things about the last 5 years:
  • Cloud computing has been growing at an unprecedented pace - a rising tide lifts all boats.
  • Intel had unrivaled manufacturing capacity - giving them a captive market, simply because no one else could satisfy the demand.
  • Server platforms take longer to bring to market, because OEMs and customers are more conservative - EPYC design wins didn't start to ramp until Rome (Zen 2).
  • Server and laptop designs have a higher support burden, and it takes time to ramp that capacity - this has limited design wins until recently.
  • Pandemic fueled unprecedented demand for both client & server chips.
You are making it sound as if the unrivaled manufacturing capacity of intel is the tide that lifted amd along with them,simply because intel alone could not satisfy the demand, and I know that was not your Intension.
Ah, but we don't know how much of that is bound up in the channel or going to OEM customers. Let's wait and see how the market share looks like for the following quarters, before we pronounce Intel's achievement.
Ah, but we never know this for any of the companies...
Suddenly this has become a concern because nobody wants to believe that intel GPUs are actually selling.
Intel is the biggest supplier for pre builds, it makes sense for an OEM to source the GPU from the same place as the CPU, less logistics=more profit.
And OEM systems do end up in customers hands so I don't even get what that remark is all about.
An important detail you're ignoring is that Intel has a massive capital liability, in the form of its fabs. They're dragging down its profits, especially if they're not running at full capacity. AMD doesn't have that.
Do you see a future where we will go back to the caveman ways throwing sticks at animals to survive?? (Hipsters excluded)
Technology is one of the markets that will always grow, expensive CPUs like the ones AMD is restricted into making might drop in desirability for a while when people don't have much money but intel makes CPUs from like $50 upwards for desktop.

Also yes AMD doesn't have that, if push comes to shove AMD won't have any way to produce anything...
If TSMC loses production capabilities for any reason at all then AMD will be out of the picture for many years.
They will have to sue intel into giving them a super good deal to produce CPUs for them.
 
Oh pls. It took more than 35 years and many disasters for AMD to step up their game against Intel. And considering Intel's current progress, it's safe to say, they're going to crush AMD starting next year (20A Arrow Lake) and TSMC a year after that with 18A. AMD is finished starting 2025.

But, TSMC won't be affected much by Intel as it takes decades to get users to migrate to new foundries. It's like getting windows software developers to migrate to linux software development. Very Hard. But Intel will definitely have a lead on the node technology which is more than sufficient to crush AMD. And thats exactly what pat gelsinger wants.
Intel is not going to crush AMD, that's bad for business.
They will make a CPU that is as close to AMDs as possible with the least amount of resources.
Just like they have been doing for all these years.
Oh, now we need 10 cores, woops never mind, now we get by with 8 again.
 
They didn't have trouble with making it work,
Nice revisionist history, there. Cannon Lake cannot be swept under the rug, so easily.
"Here was a dual core 15W processor with the integrated graphics disabled, and with lower clock frequencies than an almost-equivalent Kaby Lake 15W processor. Lots of questions were asked as to how the new 10nm process was, on paper, less efficient than the previous generation processor."​

Then, the first iteration of 10 nm happened and Ice Lake was released on what some have called 10 nm+. It was fine for the 15W laptop market, but its low clock speeds meant that it couldn't scale up to a 35W laptop, much less a desktop. So, the desktop was canceled (we got Comet Lake, instead) and Intel actually had to release a 14 nm Coffee Lake-era CPU for the 35 W laptop market, which they called Wiskey Lake!

After that, 10 nm underwent another impromevement (producing 10 nm SuperFin), and released Tiger Lake. This time, it was viable for the 35 W laptop market, yet it still couldn't clock high enough to be viable on the desktop. So, they ported the design to 14 nm and released it as Rocket Lake.

Finally, Intel managed to create a version of their 10 nm node (Enhanced SuperFin, rebranded as Intel 7), which could reach sustainable yields and competitive clock frequencies. And that's when we finally saw Alder Lake.

I know you know all of this, and I'd really like to know why you're trying to sweep it under the rug. You're really starting to make me feel negatively towards Intel. The funny thing is that Intel doesn't need this. If you know anything about PR, it's a good underdog/redemption story for Intel to fall behind and then have a big comeback. That's one thing some people like about AMD - they were undeniably on the ropes, and they managed to come back from the brink and compete at the top level. You're wasting a perfect opportunity to paint Intel as the underdog, here, instead of the "Evil Empire" like how some people regard them.

You are making it sound as if the unrivaled manufacturing capacity of intel is the tide that lifted amd along with them,
No, I meant cloud & datacenter expansion was the tide that lifted all boats.

Suddenly this has become a concern because nobody wants to believe that intel GPUs are actually selling.
We know that some amount of them are in the channel. Intel has said as much - that their current sales are down because customers are burning off inventory. So, I think it's entirely fair to wait a couple quarters before deciding how much market penetration Alchemist actually achieved.

Do you see a future where we will go back to the caveman ways throwing sticks at animals to survive?
Hopefully not. I have no idea what point you were trying to make, but what I expect to happen is that Intel spins off IFS once it signs up enough customers to be independently viable.
 
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