[SOLVED] Intel I7-10700KF: low CPU usage but high frequency ?

[TheFlyingCelt]

Hi everyone,

I recently built my new computer with a

MSI Z490-A PRO motherboard,
Intel i7-10700KF.
32GB of 3200Mhz Ram (XMP profile 1)

The CPU runs most of the time at high frequency (4.7Ghz) despite CPU usage being around 0-1% on idle. On task manager it confirm low CPU usage and nothing is eating up resources.
In Windows, power plan is set to balanced, and min cpu setting at 5% whilst max at 100%.
BIOS is at default and I also tried to turn off XMP to see if there would be any changes, but nope.

I wish the CPU would just sit at 800Mhz when idle as it is supposed to be (I guess?).
I know this won't consume more electricity and won't wear out my CPU, but it's a matter of principle. I just want to understand why and if this behaviour is to be expected with this CPU.
Any clue?
Thanks

Massimo

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

max cpu performance 100%and the minimum like 20%?

max is 100% and min is default 5%

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

@uWebb429
Thanks for your detailed comment.
I don't know how to show the images directly in here, but I provide 4 links to screenshots for you to see. Thanks

https://ibb.co/SsXT319
https://ibb.co/cFxvWqW
https://ibb.co/BrBDmdY
https://ibb.co/QrrS2sk

 

[uWebb429]

@TheFlyingCelt - The first screenshot of HWiNFO shows SST in green so Speed Shift Technology is enabled and being used by the CPU.

The second screenshot of ThrottleStop shows the same thing. SST is green. The first FID multiplier is 24.53 so your CPU is slowing down when lightly loaded. Most monitoring software does not accurately report what an Intel CPU is doing when Speed Shift is enabled and the CPU is lightly loaded. ThrottleStop uses high performance timers within the CPU and closely follows the Intel recommended monitoring method. It has the ability to show you exactly what your CPU is doing.

The third screenshot shows the Task Manager. For accurate information, use the Details (Dettagli) tab. The first two tabs including the data that the Task Manager graphs is not accurate. If you need to see an example of why that data is not accurate, just ask and I will post a screenshot.

What you forgot to post is a screenshot of the ThrottleStop FIVR window. The monitoring table will show you what Speed Shift EPP value the CPU is using.

Your computer does not have EPP set to 0. When EPP is set to 0, this is what you will see.

The FID multiplier column shows that all threads of all cores are running at maximum speed. The C0% column shows that there is next to nothing running for background tasks. Most threads are almost completely idle.

Your screenshot does not show that. Your core speeds are all over the place. When Speed Shift EPP is set to 84, my core speeds are all over the place too when lightly loaded. My CPU has cores dropping down to 800 MHz because they have nothing to do.

You can double click on the monitoring table in ThrottleStop when you need to see all of your cores and threads at the same time.

Hopefully this tool will give you a much better understanding of how an Intel CPU works. Most popular monitoring tools and the Task Manager can be misleading.

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

@uWebb429
I made a video and posted it on youtube as "not listed" for you to see. Frequencies never go down to 800Mhz. EPP is most of the times on 84 (yet freq are still relatively high) and sometimes EPP shows 0 even while I'm doing nothing.
What do you think?
Also, I don't understand why 4.7Ghz instead of 5.1Ghz turbo max if it really has to ramp up.
Please keep in mind that bandicam (the video recording software) was taking up resources, but even when it's closed, the situation won't differ much.

View: https://youtu.be/JCbedoKVxBc




Also, don't you think frequencies are running too high given the C0% ? I closed almost all softwares as you can see in sys-tray

[url=https://ibb.co/SNcvG7s][/URL]

 

[Phillip Corcoran]

I guess you didn't read my entire post
It's already in balanced mode, mate.

Ooops ! Sorry mate. These old eyes do tend to miss some things.

 

[geofelt]

When all else fails, question your assumptions.
Perhaps reset the bios back to default and start again.

Is there a possibility that you have acquired a virus or malware that is hijacking the processor and hiding the traces?

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

When all else fails, question your assumptions.
Perhaps reset the bios back to default and start again.

Is there a possibility that you have acquired a virus or malware that is hijacking the processor and hiding the traces?

I reset the BIOS to deafult mutiple times, and definitely not a virus, as I have noticed this behaviour right after having installed Windows and it hadn't been online yet. Also, I ran Kaspersky AV to scan my whole machine and no trace of anything bad came up. I also ran malwarebytes and spybot S&D.
I'm getting frustrated...

 

[uWebb429]

@TheFlyingCelt Have a look at the Turbo Ratio Limits listed in ThrottleStop. At default settings, the 51 multiplier is only available when 1 or 2 cores are active. When all 8 cores are active, the maximum multiplier is 47. Your video shows your CPU running at the speed it should be running at. If you want your CPU to use the 51 multiplier when all 8 cores are active during a CPU-Z full load stress test then you have to set all of the turbo ratios to 51.

Technically speaking, this is overclocking. You would be running your Intel CPU beyond its default specs. Most motherboards have an option in the BIOS called multi-core enhancement or something similar to that which would set all of the turbo ratios to 51 automatically and allow you to do this.

One reason my CPU can drop down to 800 MHz is because the C0% is extremely low. Your average C0 of 0.8% in your screenshot looks good but my CPU can idle with only needing to spend 0.05% in the C0 state. Big difference. If you want your CPU to idle down some more then you need to close the Task Manager and get rid of that other monitoring app you are using. ThrottleStop is very lean and allows a CPU to idle down. Many other monitoring apps are not. ShutUp10 is a good utility to clean up some of the useless Windows 10 background tasks like telemetry.

Before Speed Shift Technology was invented, Windows would allow CPUs to go down to 800 MHz. It gave everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling that their CPU was running efficiently. What Intel later discovered is that 800 MHz is one of the most inefficient speeds you can run a CPU at. That is the logic behind Speed Shift. If a CPU has a task to perform, it is best to get the CPU up to full speed as fast as possible, perform the task as quickly as possible and then immediately have the core get back into one of the low power C states like core C7. This computing model is called Race to Sleep. Some smart guys at Berkeley wrote a paper about this concept years ago. Intel must have finally read the paper or did their own testing and that is when Speed Shift was born.

Power Optimization – a Reality Check
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2009/EECS-2009-140.pdf

Instead of being concerned about MHz when a CPU is idle, you need to look at C state residency time. You need to maximize the percentage of time your CPU cores are spending in the C7 state.

This CPU has the cores averaging 99.4% of their time in the C7 state. In C7 cores are disconnected from the internal clock and disconnected from the voltage rail so they are sitting idle at 0 MHz and 0 volts. The other 0.6% of the time, the cores are running at 5000 MHz so they can get background tasks done quickly. This is an efficient CPU. If you force the active cores to run at 800 MHz, the CPU cores will need to spend more than 6 times as much time in the C0 state consuming power compared to being idle in the C7 state consuming next to nothing.

With 10th and 11th Gen processors, Intel is ramping up the CPU speed very aggressively when lightly loaded. If you have the C states enabled, this is not a bad thing to be doing. It offers better off idle response, reduced latency and improved efficiency. A CPU can get more done per unit of energy at 4000 MHz than it can at 800 MHz.

sometimes EPP shows 0 even while I'm doing nothing.

When Windows first boots up, it forces EPP to 0 so the CPU can run at maximum speed. I am assuming it does this so boot up happens as fast as possible. After a minute or two it usually settles back down to 84. If I am using the Windows Power Saver power plan, this sets EPP to 153 on my computer. The higher the EPP value, the more CPU load it will take to ramp up to full speed.

If you look at power consumption at the wall, it makes virtually zero difference. EPP =0 or EPP = 153 results in a 1 watt difference which is really not worth worrying about.

If you want your CPU to run at a more sluggish speed when lightly loaded, use ThrottleStop to increase the EPP value to 255. EPP stands for Energy Performance Preference and gives the CPU a hint of whether you prefer performance or power saving. I just set this to 255 for a screenshot. I went back to typing and OMG, the lag was incredible. Time to retire the belief that 800 MHz is a good thing. It is not.

 

[Phaaze88]

@TheFlyingCelt
I guess my earlier post was overlooked, but have you tried uninstalling Dragon Center?

This application could be overriding the normal turbo behavior with some stupid game boost profile.

 

[uWebb429]

the normal turbo behavior

His computer is behaving normally. It uses the 47 multiplier when 8 cores are active just as Intel designed it to do. The multicore enhancement that many motherboards apply automatically is not the default Intel spec. It is overclocking. If one wants to overclock like this they can enable MCE in the BIOS or they can set all of the turbo ratio limits to 51 in the BIOS.

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

@TheFlyingCelt Have a look at the Turbo Ratio Limits listed in ThrottleStop. At default settings, the 51 multiplier is only available when 1 or 2 cores are active. When all 8 cores are active, the maximum multiplier is 47. Your video shows your CPU running at the speed it should be running at. If you want your CPU to use the 51 multiplier when all 8 cores are active during a CPU-Z full load stress test then you have to set all of the turbo ratios to 51.

Hi buddy,
I was just curious to understand why it wouldn't ramp up to 5.1Ghz during intense stress tests like with Prime95. I have never seen 5.1Ghz, not even for a second on any core, therefore I thought my cpu could be faulty. Thanks a lot for clarifying this to me!

One reason my CPU can drop down to 800 MHz is because the C0% is extremely low. Your average C0 of 0.8% in your screenshot looks good but my CPU can idle with only needing to spend 0.05% in the C0 state. Big difference. If you want your CPU to idle down some more then you need to close the Task Manager and get rid of that other monitoring app you are using. ThrottleStop is very lean and allows a CPU to idle down. Many other monitoring apps are not. ShutUp10 is a good utility to clean up some of the useless Windows 10 background tasks like telemetry.

I'm going to try and kill some tasks with the software you kindly suggested.

Before Speed Shift Technology was invented, Windows would allow CPUs to go down to 800 MHz.

I come from an an Intel I5-4670K and I was used to see 800Mhz most of the time, when cpu usage was quite low. According to what you told me, we should consider the freq. I'm seeing now with the I7-10700KF normal then. Right?

With 10th and 11th Gen processors, Intel is ramping up the CPU speed very aggressively when lightly loaded. If you have the C states enabled, this is not a bad thing to be doing. It offers better off idle response, reduced latency and improved efficiency. A CPU can get more done per unit of energy at 4000 MHz than it can at 800 MHz.

Got it. And yes, C state is enabled.

If you want your CPU to run at a more sluggish speed when lightly loaded, use ThrottleStop to increase the EPP value to 255. EPP stands for Energy Performance Preference and gives the CPU a hint of whether you prefer performance or power saving. I just set this to 255 for a screenshot. I went back to typing and OMG, the lag was incredible. Time to retire the belief that 800 MHz is a good thing. It is not.

Thanks SO much for educating me!

I'll have to live with seeing high freq. and realize it's not necessary a bad thing actually. As I wrote, I come from a 4th gen I5 and seeing these high frequencies now made me believe something was wrong. See what ignorance does? ;-)

I assume you own an I9. Out of curiosity: what's your average freq. on idle?

You've been great, buddy! THANK YOU, and congrats for your skills.
I might be bothering you again if something is not clear to me, if you don't mind.
You're a source of knowledge!

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

@TheFlyingCelt
I guess my earlier post was overlooked, but have you tried uninstalling Dragon Center?

This application could be overriding the normal turbo behavior with some stupid game boost profile.

I'm sorry @Phaaze88 I must must have lost it! Apologies. Yeah, I did try and nothing changed. But as @uWebb429 said, I now understand that I was concerned for no reason. I was used to an old 4th gen I5 where frequencies on idle was 800Mhz most of the times, so I had a wrong belief that something was not right with my new I7-10700KF.
Thank you for your suggestion though!

 

[uWebb429]

cpu could be faulty

The CPU is designed to use the 51 multiplier when 1 or 2 cores are active. Close the Task Manager and exit your web browser and exit your other monitoring apps. Run the TS Bench and set it to a 1 Thread test. You should be seeing a multiplier close to 51. There are always Windows background tasks waking up additional cores. When this happens, the multiplier drops. When the task is complete, the multiplier goes back up. ThrottleStop reports a very accurate average when this is happening. Post a screenshot while your CPU is loaded during this test.

I was used to see 800Mhz

The 4th Gen CPUs do not use Speed Shift Technology so they ramp up much slower compared to 6th Gen and newer CPUs with Speed Shift enabled. Try running ThrottleStop on your 4th Gen CPU. Your CPU might not be sitting at 800 MHz. A lot of popular monitoring apps do not report Intel CPUs correctly when they are lightly loaded or idle or using Speed Shift Technology.

what's your average freq. on idle?

I run my CPUs at full speed, 5000 MHz, regardless of load. I prefer responsiveness and low latency over the microscopic power savings.

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

Close the Task Manager and exit your web browser and exit your other monitoring apps. Run the TS Bench and set it to a 1 Thread test. You should be seeing a multiplier close to 51.

I closed everything I could and also previously ran OOSU10 as suggested the rebooted the PC as required.
I post here (if I manage to understand how) two screenshots, first one is on idle, and the second one while benchmark was running. I didn't see 5.1Ghz. I believe the highest was 4.8 or 4.9Ghz. How come?
C7 column seems to be well populated. I'm lost.

 

[Phaaze88]

I run my CPUs at full speed, 5000 MHz, regardless of load. I prefer responsiveness and low latency over the microscopic power savings.

You're using voltage override for that - to heck with adaptive/offset?

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

@uWebb429 for some reason now Speed Shift EPP is always on 0 in ThrottleStop.

 

[TommyTwoTone66]

Intel Speed Shift Technology is the best way to control any 6th Gen and newer CPU. This should be enabled in the BIOS.

Run HWiNFO and look for SST in green. That confirms if Speed Shift is enabled or not.

An amazingly detailed and comprehensive answer from a place of great wisdom. I learned something from it and I've been in IT for 20 years

I would suggest if HWinfo shows SST as green and your EPP is correctly set to 84 then maybe something else like Dragon Center or a BIOS setting is overriding it.

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

your EPP is correctly set to 84

It was, but for some reason it's now 0 and I don't know how to fix that... I think I messed up my CPU with ThrottleStop, despite I didn't do anything. HELP!
BIOS is at default and I also tried to uninstall Dragon Center

 

[uWebb429]

I'm lost.

I think you should complain to Intel. The 51 multiplier they promise is overly optimistic. The slightest bit of additional load during a single threaded test is enough to drop it down to 49.

When I am doing a TS Bench - 1 Thread test on a 20 thread CPU, the benchmark is keeping the CPU in the C0 state 5% of the time (1/20). The background processes keep the CPU busy another 0.1% so the total is 5.1%.

You have a 16 thread CPU so this test should keep your CPU in the C0 state 6.25% of the time (1/16) plus any Windows background processing. Your screenshot shows 7.8%. Not a huge difference but if you still have another inefficient monitoring program running on your computer, constantly waking up the cores, this will interfere with the maximum turbo multiplier. Are you still using Dragon Center or that on screen monitoring software?

You can either become OCD and track down every app on your computer or just change your turbo ratio limits. Instead of the 51 multiplier when 1 or 2 cores are active, why not change that to the 51 multiplier when 1, 2 or 3 cores are active. That should allow your CPU to use the 51 multiplier more often when your computer is lightly loaded.

Speed Shift EPP is always on 0 in ThrottleStop

Windows 10 will set EPP to 0 after you first boot up and this can last for a couple of minutes. If the FIVR monitoring table continues to show 0 then check to see what Windows power plan you are using. The High Performance power plan usually sets EPP to 0. There are no written in stone values. Two different computers might have different default EPP values.

C7 column seems to be well populated.

95% in C7 is good but 99.5% in C7 is better. The difference seems small but it directly effects how much turbo boost Intel thinks you are worthy of.

I think I messed up my CPU with ThrottleStop

Probably not. If you ever make a mistake while setting up ThrottleStop, exit the program, delete the ThrottleStop.INI configuration file and completely shutdown your computer. This will reset your CPU. When you start back up, everything will be back to normal. If you run ThrottleStop and it does not find that configuration file, it will create a new one with whatever settings the BIOS has set your CPU to. Check your Windows power options. That is likely the source of your EPP problem.

voltage override

I never use a fixed voltage. I use the Adaptive setting in ThrottleStop to fine tune the voltage. At the moment I have adjusted the load line calibration settings in the BIOS so I am only using a very small negative voltage offset. At default load line settings, I used to need a -150 mV offset in ThrottleStop but not anymore.

This adaptive voltage setting works great. The default VID voltage curve that Intel sets the CPU to closely tracks the voltage that the CPU needs to be stable. With ThrottleStop I can easily switch to an all core 50, 51, 52 or 53 multiplier or any multiplier and the voltage will adjust automatically. I can also switch to the default staggered turbo ratios without having to reboot. Very flexible. If I go lower than 5000 MHz, the core voltage drops automatically.

I have heard some users have problems with excessive voltage. The only time I have trouble with high voltages is when I am trying to run this CPU at 5.3 GHz or 5.4 GHz. The 10850K is a 10900K reject. This CPU could not run at high speeds with a reasonable amount of voltage so Intel cranked up the voltage table and lowered its default speed. The default voltage is high at these speeds because the CPU needs this extra voltage.

You also have to keep in mind that when the C states are enabled, any unused cores are sitting idle at 0 volts and 0 MHz. People get alarmed when they see an idle CPU at 5000 MHz. The reality is different. When I am typing away at a forum, 99% of the time all 10 cores and 20 threads will be sitting idle at 0 MHz.

5000 MHz when idle is deceiving. It does not accurately represent the speed the cores are at more than 99% of the time and that is a good thing. C state residency time is much more important than MHz when an Intel CPU is idle. The only time the core is running at 5000 MHz is when it has something to do. That is exactly what you want. Fast when needed and sitting dormant at 0 MHz when idle.

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

The slightest bit of additional load during a single threaded test is enough to drop it down to 49

Hi,
I see. Yeah I noticed that.

When I am doing a TS Bench - 1 Thread test on a 20 thread CPU, the benchmark is keeping the CPU in the C0 state 5% of the time (1/20). The background processes keep the CPU busy another 0.1% so the total is 5.1%

So we can say the C0 shows the % of time cpu resources are taken and C7 shows % of time the cpu resources are available, in simple terms?

Are you still using Dragon Center or that on screen monitoring software?

Not at the moment.

You can either become OCD and track down every app on your computer or just change your turbo ratio limits. Instead of the 51 multiplier when 1 or 2 cores are active, why not change that to the 51 multiplier when 1, 2 or 3 cores are active. That should allow your CPU to use the 51 multiplier more often when your computer is lightly loaded.

Actually I aimed at reducing the Mhz at first, but as you taught us, that wouldn't be a good thing.

Windows 10 will set EPP to 0 after you first boot up and this can last for a couple of minutes. If the FIVR monitoring table continues to show 0 then check to see what Windows power plan you are using.

Yes, it continued to show 0, and after checking I saw my power plan was on "excellent". Thank you

Probably not. If you ever make a mistake while setting up ThrottleStop, exit the program, delete the ThrottleStop.INI configuration file and completely shutdown your computer. This will reset your CPU. When you start back up, everything will be back to normal. If you run ThrottleStop and it does not find that configuration file, it will create a new one with whatever settings the BIOS has set your CPU to. Check your Windows power options. That is likely the source of your EPP problem.

Solved. Thank you very much once again for your precious help, my friend.

 

[Phaaze88]

@uWebb429
I knew I was doing adaptive voltage wrong. This helped point me in the right direction.
Back to the drawing board for me!

 

[TheFlyingCelt]

A message to those who will come across this thread due to MSI Dragon Center causing high CPU clocks on idle: after many days and lot of effort collaborating with MSI, they have finally made their motherboard managing software MSI Center compatible with many more mobos. I can't say that all the issues are completely fixed, but it's much better than before. Visit MSI website and give it a try if you're experiencing problems with Dragon Center.
And yes, it comes with Mystic Light to control your RGB, as many people around the globe have been asking for.
Again, it's not perfect, but I can see quite an improvement.
I hope it helps.