Intel - stopping poor children from getting computers

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I think it's all BS. As if these kids (in third-world countries) need a computer....they need food, shelter, and medications/vaccinations. $130 would probably feed a kid for 6months-a year. :x :x
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So the $130 feeds him for six months. What does he do for the next 20 years of his short life? Could be 60 more years if he had means to make money for food and health care.

Does it matter... if the person dies of starvation/malaria in the next 6 months?

Maslows-needs-Pyramid.jpg


Kudos for pulling up Maslow's hierarchy, but -1 star for misapplying it.

After you have a good meal, courtesy of your death squad commander in Africa, what do you do next....? Well, maybe the 17-yr-old lieutenant that fed you tells you to grab your rifle and kill the other 12-yr-olds across the field or in the next village. And you do it....cause you believe the BS they taught you, because you don't know shit, because there's no easy route to learn more. This isn't a fantasy scenario. Just read up on the child soldiers in Africa, some bio stuff.

Get a clue folks. It isn't a choice between computers and food.
 
Stop being a noob.

Its been said many times in this topic that these laptops arent going to people in the middle of the sahara desert that cant even feed themselves. Its going to countries that are underdeveloped but not completely devoid of civilized society. They can basically feed themselves but are not evolving technologically.

Its like lifting the highest end of the poor in america and placing them into the middle class. Get it, dee dee dee?
 
You´re just wrong, because Intel doesnt want nothing with Africa the same goes to OLPC, africans just dont have how to pay, or if some or other government does, dont have how to honor it in long term.
And If you dont know, they just don´t kill each other, France promoted a massacre in Ruanda in january this year, sure you dont know it, because CNN doesnt noticied it.
 
I think this is a nice program, however the impression that I had earlier is that they would simply send a computer to everybodys home. Hoever it is the schools who will have control over them. I also saw the kids who used them and thought they were going to be a bunch of jackasses who wanted to abuse the computers or use myspace like what I see happening at my school all the time. However they were actually interested in learning. So it seems worth the effort to me. However will this be profitable enough for the corporations as to be enough interest to them?
 
Considering African Nations and India are saying that they'd rather use the money for other types of traditional education...

why are we shoving our technology down the throats of these countries? Seems like arrogance to me.

Why is this starting to remind me of Star Trek's Prime Directive?? :lol:
 
Considering African Nations and India are saying that they'd rather use the money for other types of traditional education...

why are we shoving our technology down the throats of these countries? Seems like arrogance to me.

Why is this starting to remind me of Star Trek's Prime Directive?? :lol:
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It's a good point!

I've been arguing against the fallacy of choosing between food and computers (which isn't realistic for the targets of OLPC).

But regarding the cost, on the other hand, it's a good point! $130-$170 can go a long ways in a poor country to pay a teacher, etc.

We shouldn't underestimate the potency of the networked laptops, but still, they need to be a lot cheaper for those kinds of nations to be practical.

That said, there are a lot of (other) places were the OLPC makes sense in my estimation, because of the power of self-directed learning and connection.
 
I think there is some mis-perception as to what is really going on. I don't think Intel wants to provide notebooks to poor villagers is Africa. They want to provide affordable notebooks that can run a standard OS to the children of the people in emerging countries that already have food and shelter. These notebooks are for them to continue their climb toward a strong education for their children.

This just happens to be at odds with the OLPC project, because they were counting on this market to improve their economies of scale. The problem is, a classmate is going to make more sense for the citizens of Beijing because they will have the infrastucture to support it. The OLPC might make sense in a remote rural village in one of these countries, but isn't at all competitive where the demand for low end notebooks is actually starting to emerge. The problem with Negroponte, and AMD is that they don't get that the people in those remote rural villages are way more concerned with getting food and shelter than with a notebook computer. Intel knows who the customer is and is providing them with a very strong product while Negroponte is in a dream world solving problems that aren't relevent.
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Fortunately the "poor" people don't fit in only these two categories -- a)ready to rocket forward and only lacking a computer and b) just plain starving to death.

It may need stating after all. OLPC computers probably won't be literally put into a kid's hands just at the door of death.

lol

There are plenty of people in rural areas that aren't starving to death. They do have a tendency to grow food, so they probably aren't starving unless the government seizes all of their crops. However, they need to work long hours just to get by. They are spending all of their time just to get food and shelter. They barely have utilities at all. These are the people that OLPC wants to include as customers. They have added features to their notebook that caters to their situation, but aren't as useful to the more wealthy workers in the cities. Intel is taking a more pragmatic view and not worrying about the rural villages for now, focusing on the people in the cities that have more means and can better see the value of an education that includes computer literacy.
 
"I don't think Intel wants to provide notebooks to poor villagers is Africa. They want to provide affordable notebooks that can run a standard OS to the children of the people in emerging countries that already have food and shelter."

Intel is not going to provide them. It is going to sell them to the governments. It is going to get fiscal "bribe" in a try of those governments to produce (mount) the thing in their own country, that´s what Brasil is trying with OLPC and Intel.

It will be necessary specialized workmanship, for maintenance and implementation of the nets that will support such laptops, as well for the maintenance of the laptops, therefore the transport in the case of serious damages, would become prohibitive in relation to the primary cost of the product.

The development of softwares in the country´s language will be necessary, plus an additional cost, to train the teachers, who in the case of my state are in strike. The two countries where they want to implement such project, has similar realities, Brazil and India where the children go the school to receive the meal and not to study, therefore they lack books, desks, teachers and even though the food, first reason to be there.

Yes the money one country send to the other rarely gets used to what it was first adressed, but the error lies, on who sends to who, if you send it to a endemic corrupt politic society, all you get is favors, that´s what intel will get.
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English is clearly not your primary language and your interpretation of "provide" shows it. The word provide is rather generic and can mean either that one is making a gift or is acting as a supplier. A common use of the word is "internet service provider". These are companies that charge people for internet access. I used the term "provide" to indicate that Intel may be donating or selling, depending upon the situation. I suggest that you avail yourself of a dictionary more often. They are quite useful and prevent you from misinterpreting what you've read.

As for the students in Brazil and India, I'm sure there are many that just go to school for a meal. However, there is clearly evidence that some go to school for more than just a free meal. The semiconductor company I work for has employees that are natives of those countries as well as Turkey, China, Lebanon and many others that aren't doing so well. Some people are getting a decent education in these countries. The idea is to expand the number that are. Not all schools in Brazil, India and other emerging countries are ready for computers. However, some are. It is important that there be a low priced product be available when they are ready to use it. These computers are still too expensive, but the costs will go down over time and they will become more viable.
 
It's a good point!

I've been arguing against the fallacy of choosing between food and computers (which isn't realistic for the targets of OLPC).

But regarding the cost, on the other hand, it's a good point! $130-$170 can go a long ways in a poor country to pay a teacher, etc.

We shouldn't underestimate the potency of the networked laptops, but still, they need to be a lot cheaper for those kinds of nations to be practical.

That said, there are a lot of (other) places were the OLPC makes sense in my estimation, because of the power of self-directed learning and connection.
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The places where a low cost notebook makes sense have decent power and if there is access to the internet, a mesh network won't be necessary. This is why I say OLPC isn't very well planned to match the market. That rural village would be better served spending more on facilities and instruction than on a notebook. Intel is targeting the emerging wealth of city dwellers who can start thinking about owning a luxury like a computer, but can't afford what they cost in the US.
 
You´re right I misunderstood your colocation, and English isnt my mother language.
And sure there are children here in Brasil who doesnt use to go to school just for the meal, but in contradition to most of the world, here a paid school is not a great privilege, and the public school is praticaly a statment that those children will never go to a university or get a good job.
And this happens not because they dont have computers, because enough schools have them not for inciative from the government, but from ongs, who not only provide them, and in most cases susbstitute the teachers for free.

I cant see how a "laptop", with so reduced functions, can substitute a notepad, and the didatic books, you can argument, that they´re coming to complement those, but they´ll generate costs, and those countries, cant mantain the former, how are they going to mantain the computers?
Here we can gather a k6-2 with 256mb ram and so on for 70 dollars, with keyboard mouse and monitor, there in the US, I can only predict that for you such equipment, is just garbage. But if you compare it with OLPC or others it dont stay much behind. Sure it will lose mobility, but it will reduce yet the danger inflicted to those children carrying those things around. And a stationary computer would reduce costs with maintenance, and beeing obsolete reduce costs with its parts. Do you think those laptop spare parts would have the same price they have mounted in the laptop itself?

Its just politics, our president wants to show up in newspapers, as a visionary, Negroponte wins the nobel and some bucks, and the children stays where they are.

Such a good inciative would be if Japan or the US would send us you technological garbage, it would be cheaper to us to repair and refurbish those equipment than buy or even gain by donation "new" obsolete, proprietary technology.
 
I rarely quote but I had to on this one :)

I must say. About now it is very entertaining seeing you do your best impression of Jim Carey where he talks out of his backside.

Your first point is not a problem this concept has. It's actually the solution the concept of pushing open communication technology into places like rural india is designed to be. 2 and 3 are very real challenges though and I'll address them briefly below. Information can be distributed in their native language. It's one of the primary goals of OLPC since it is necessary to make the project successful. For these people to jump on the open net and do independent research they would need to learn other languages but the OLPC could be used to help teach them english so even this is not an insurmountable obstacle.

2) They is very little maintenance with the OLCP. Certainly there would have to be some training, but you wouldn't need an A+ certified and experienced computer technician. So this problem is probably not so big as you might think, Not as big as it would be with a regular laptop (like the classmate).

This seems to be the first thing pulled out, I mean written out of your backside. Please enlighten us with the manitenance schematics for both machines. I am sure they are available right? RIGHT?

You think that maintenance will occur on a $100 item bought in bulk, millions at a time?
Please do tell. Please link too...
Are they planning on doing Depot level maintenance? Oh wait the kids are supposed to repair them "all by themselves" :) This is too funny..
Given that a visually documented report of a geek trying to repair one had him at a loss!

Just in case you missed it there really is NO provisions at this time for maintenance of the devices, causing concern for many of the folks who worry about the recycling/environmental impact a pile of OLPCs would cause. To be fair Intel has this same issue.

3) Well, this is just a problem. But if EVERY single child had one who would steal one? Every child has a guardian or two, every child has a teacher or two. They probably won't take too kindly to people stealing stuff from their children and if someone walks around carrying an X0 there are very few reasons for having one. You also kinda have to know how to use one before you'd want to steal one. And you'd also have to be ok with stealing from children (which should make exporting and reselling them difficult also). Theft of something valuable is a problem but part of the idea is to make the device unattractive to thieves.

Again I think we are shooting from the hip or slightly below here too :lol: :lol: . Could you please go ahead and provide a link to this info too? Because I am not sure you could.

It would seem that there are reports of theft of these devices already. You see since (are you ready for this) people with wireline services such as DSL are having problems with terribly intermittent service. I guess people are actually stealing the local digital wireline loop for sale of the copper (Peru). This leaves wealthy folks without connectivity. So these little gems are being stolen as a backup for their wireline service. Man there is a market for everything. Just Google for OLPC and theft.

But wait there is MORE.. They have an anti-theft service in mind (not yet implemented but could be). It is a daemon that is running and can not even be terminated by ROOT!
The device needs to be reported stolen (by the kid/community and a national database is updated and as soon as the device connects to the internet (reports to the central sever that does NOT exist according to Flash :) tee hee) the notebook locks and shuts down. :)

Here is the kicker.. For this to work there is a security lease on each delivered machine. If the lease is set for 3 days and the machine does not report to the non-existent central server during those 3-days the machine will lock automatically and shut down. If 20 days then same thing then. Ready for it? They are having difficulties with this process since it seems that in some locations the internet service for this wonderful device is allowing the lease to expire even after 21 days.

This means service to some areas is so sporadic that they will go longer than 21 days without service. If the device locks they have to find someone to unlock it. Now the final kicker.. Since the service is so spotty and they are having issues, the leases are being extended or removed all together. Yup anti-theft :)
Also, OLPC folks are quoted as saying that it is NOT likely that these devices will be stolen for parts only. However the screen is quite nice and is quite revolutionary. Hmmmm I think folks with (regular laptops :) had to use it here somewhere) would like to use these especially if they could easily be adapted for use in other items. Phhhhhheeeeewwwww[/color][/b]
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PS...

I am sure that nobody will EVER figure out a way around the security daemon. Oh wait maybe write a tftp server that updates the lease everytime the machine turns on? Ever heard of something called ethereal? No way anyone could packet sniff these little guys and catch the request and the response... Nope never. Cause that would require an 802.11X device in promiscuous mode. Nope never happen :)

Cause you know that Blue-Ray and HD-DVD will never be broken either 😉.
 
you say that the mesh network needs an AP... no it doesn't. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Wireless

I couldn't find any reports of OLPCs actually being stolen already...

You're the one making stuff up here. And even when you do bring up something true you don't provide any links. A software remote-kill daemon is a very common concept. You can order one with your Dell laptop. It can't work in places that don't have centralized network or Internet connections, true. ...so?

You seem to limit the ways and places that an OLPC could be deployed to only ones where it would fail.

"How is a laptop supposed to help a child who is starving to death? ...in the desert with no electricity while being held at gunpoint in an unsafe shack that's on fire while a suffering from a malaria-induced seizure after he dropped his OLPC down a well the day before that was dry smashing it into pieces and has no one to teach him how to fix it using only twigs as tools when he is only 2 years old? HA! He couldn't! It's a useless bad idea!" Give me a break.

There are places where it will work. There are places where it is working already. http://news.cnet.co.uk/laptops/0,39029680,49289106-1,00.htm
OLPC and Intel have both deployed pilot projects.

Could you just point out flaws without blowing them out of proportion or pretending that they apply to every situation? Or at least stop making up flaws that don't exist (like the mesh network that needs an AP)?
 
Sorry Flash,

You are right they are calling them MPs...

Mesh Points. You really do not understand this stuff do you?

The deal with a mesh network (not just theirs) is that each device acts as a repeater of sorts. It can receive and send both and requires a multi-hop protocol.

If they are to gain access to the internet they have to either:

a) Connect to an MP (a device that connects the start of the wireless mesh network to the rest of world or ROW) just another name for an AP.

b) Connect to a device that is connected to the MP.

c) Connect to a device that is connected to a device that is connected to the MP.

You have to think of WIMAX as the Hub approach with a longer range for the central HUB.

You have to think of the WIMESH network as a peer to peer to peer to destination approach.

Both have benefits. Both have drawbacks.

WiMesh because of its inherent routing protocol which is servicing not only YOUR connection but also THEIR connection has a drawback that it will be slower when multiple connections are made NOT ONLY THROUGH YOUR MACHINE BUT OTHERS DOWNSTREAM OF YOU TOO. WiMesh has the capability to dynamically EXTEND and also REDUCE the range of the network. The option of dynamically reducing the range is NOT YOUR OPTION. It is the option of the next closest device/person who turns off the device or radio to conserve battery. You see the distance/range of the device is only as long as its last connection. If the connection is geographically broken somewhere in between because someone went out of range and they were YOUR link then you are no longer connected Capiche 😉.

WIMAX has limitations of NOT BEING ABLE TO dynamically EXTEND THE NETWORK range beyond the central HUBS capabilities. The only bandwidth loss/slow down is due to the number of connections being processed in essence sharing the AP total bandwidth (same issue that WiMesh has but WiMesh also introduces additional traffic to your machine). Routing will be MUCH MORE efficient in the WIMAX arena.

By the way I have provided Links to many things but given that this is a geek/enthusiast site MOST 😉 people here understand what I am typing and MOST 😉 know it to be true.

If ya want the basics of WiMesh I could send you to SONOS.com and you can go through their online tutorial.

Hey thanks for playing anyways!!
 
PS.. Flash

I gave you the Google string to input and yet you can not find theft of OLPCs.

Hmmm

It would seem that what I described was a HIT on the very first page (not link) returned.

Pss... Flash

The only reason I slam you so hard is your own methods for dealing with posters are how you might say "not the nicest".

Had you decided to debate this without calling people names and trying to demean them while being wrong yourself I would probably have played much much nicer with you.

edited to add the following:

If you would like to get into tech debate with me I invite you. If you would like to reply kindly in debate I will return in kind. If not that is fine too.

Have a nice day!!
 
Flash,

Please do not do things like the quote below:

"How is a laptop supposed to help a child who is starving to death? ...in the desert with no electricity while being held at gunpoint in an unsafe shack that's on fire while a suffering from a malaria-induced seizure after he dropped his OLPC down a well the day before that was dry smashing it into pieces and has no one to teach him how to fix it using only twigs as tools when he is only 2 years old? HA! He couldn't! It's a useless bad idea!" Give me a break.
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At ANY point did I type any of those things? NO! NOT AT ALL!

However you make it sound as if I did.

That is underhanded at best. Please feel free to quote me at any time. Especially if I typed anything like above!

If you would like to summarize things I have typed, go ahead and quote them for accuracy. mmmmmmk?

Glad I could help!
 
I haven't had time to read the whole topic but as good as the olpc project is, what use would many of the worlds poor children have with a laptop when many of them can't read or write to good?
Just some food for thought.
 
Flash,

Please do not do things like the quote below:


"How is a laptop supposed to help a child who is starving to death? ...in the desert with no electricity while being held at gunpoint in an unsafe shack that's on fire while a suffering from a malaria-induced seizure after he dropped his OLPC down a well the day before that was dry smashing it into pieces and has no one to teach him how to fix it using only twigs as tools when he is only 2 years old? HA! He couldn't! It's a useless bad idea!" Give me a break.
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At ANY point did I type any of those things? NO! NOT AT ALL!

However you make it sound as if I did.

That is underhanded at best. Please feel free to quote me at any time. Especially if I typed anything like above!

If you would like to summarize things I have typed, go ahead and quote them for accuracy. mmmmmmk?

Glad I could help!

That was an exaggeration of your entire senseless and rude rant for comic effect. I guess you didn't get it.

No, I don't want to get in a more detailed tech debate with you. Here's a good example of why:
A "mesh point" is an OLPC that turns itself into a mesh point. A internet connection is an internet connection. To have a connection to the internet you need and internet connection. That seems kinda obvious but thanks for telling us though.
If no mesh or access point is visible, then the laptop will become a mesh point on Channel 1.
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How you managed to interpret this as meaning "if there is no AP the X0 will be unable to network with anything" is a feat of stupidity as of yet unreached in this thread. :trophy:
On a mesh network any computer in the mesh can send any file it wants to any other computer in the mesh without interference of a centralized network node. With WiMAX the AP is the centralized node and it has the power to control all network traffic passing through it. You can't send a file to directly to another PC, you send it to the AP and the AP sends it to the other PC. This is basic network knowledge. This really wasn't even that big of a point but the fact that you kept rudely bringing it up over and over and over again is astounding. You don't need to install any kind of wireless access point for the X0 to network. Even the classmate could be used to form an ad-hoc wireless network (everyone would just have to stay very close to each other or implement some kind of relay system at the software level but the battery wouldn't last long and any freedom they gained could be easily controlled with TPM).


Why would I care if you were nice to me or not when you bring up the same wrong point over and over again no matter how you are corrected? Of all the people I scolded for not reading up on the topic at all before criticizing it you're the only one who seems to have read up on it and still not come around in the least bit.

Thanks for spamming the thread with garbage and nonsense for the past day or so. You sure taught me a lesson.

Anyway. Now that we have very clearly shown, at least 1 more time than should have been necessary, that the X0 does not require any network infrastructure to create a robust LAN or possibly even a WAN perhaps we can get into a real discussion about the significance of the remote-kill daemon that is to be deployed in some locations.

I actually considered puchasing a laptop "lowjack" type service for my g/f's laptop. It was to be a ~$1200 laptop. She wanted DVD playback. I offered to get her one of the many xo that are flooding ebay http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=OLPC&category0= (sike! although chessy might do this search and come back and claim that they are being sold for $9 http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=xo+laptop&category0= ) but she said that it was not powerful enough for her and she might need windows to run stuff for university. Oh, and she wanted 14.1" or smaller screen, <5lbs, and +4, preferable 8 hours runtime. Girls so picky. So I was gonna put the software and the laptop on the sticker and hope it scared people away and it came with a cash insurance in case it actually got stolen and they couldn't find it (and I needed an excuse to set up that jab at ches111's mad skim-reading skillz). I didn't really think that it would be fool-proof for tracking or bricking the laptop if someone stole it but it seemed worth it for ~$100 since there was the insurance included with it and I didn't want my g/f to incur any untimely expenses while doing her study abroad. And there is the time some guy successfully used seti@home to track down and recover his g/f's stolen laptop http://wcco.com/local/local_story_045220309.html so I knew it possible but, more importantly, knew that other people knew it was possible.

The concerning thing here is that this same kind of system could be used to remotely enforce curriculum and I strongly believe that the teachers on site should have the final say one what gets taught (they should be the most qualified to make that decision, not some government official in a palace on the other side of the country) but without TPM it could be circumvented.

So, it's a theft deterant. That's all. How effective it is depends largely on how effective would-be thieves believe it would be. They are supposed to be working on a firmware reinforcement which will give it a lot more teeth (the software could write to the firmware disabling the device and requiring a goodly amount of expertise to restore it) but all you would really have to do to circumvent that is not boot the OS and wipe the HD and reinstall.

Having actually bought them the governments should put at least some effort into protecting them and this tool would help them, it's just the potential for abuse and the requirement of reliable network infrastructure that is concerning.
 
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