News Intel to Disclose Client PC Platform Roadmap Next Week

[Admin]

Intel to discuss client PC platform roadmap with investors.

Intel to Disclose Client PC Platform Roadmap Next Week : Read more

 

[cyrusfox]

Execution? Excited to see what they are projecting for future products. It seems like MOAR cores is slowing down on the consumer space, Hope we hear about workstation products as well as future Mobile offerings.

 

[emike09]

Just give us affordable HEDT again, that's all we're asking.

 

[helper800]

Just give us affordable HEDT again, that's all we're asking.

The consumer chips with 30+ threads aren't enough? If you need lanes, then I guess you gotta shell out for Ryzen pro Threadripper Pro.

 

[Nikolay Mihaylov]

The consumer chips with 30+ threads aren't enough? If you need lanes, then I guess you gotta shell out for Ryzen pro.

There's more to HEDT than just threads/cores (and efficiency cores do not cut it!). Mostly a 4 channel memory controller which provides double the throughput but also double the capacity. Or, better speeds at he same capacity when you need 4 modules to achieve the required capacity. And ECC would be nice. Probably not from Intel, if history is any indication, but one would hope that being the underdog changes their perspective WRT market segmentation.

Then there's the PCIe connectivity. Since on desktop chips it's not enough, MB manufacturers are forced to guess the actual use case in order to come up with the slot distribution. This has had the effect that high-end MBs have worse distribution because current high-end GPUs (which you are supposed to use on a high-end MB, I guess) occupy up to 4 slots. And the first one is usually taken by the M.2 slot because you are supposed to use oversized CPU coolers which may interfere with the card in the first slot so it's risky to place the the GPU slot at the first position. Just give me four x16 slots (supporting 4x4 bifurcation) at positions 1,3,5,7 and three x4 slots in at least x8 physical slots at positions 2, 4 ,6. If that's not enough, then you clearly need a higher end workstation class machine and those are available. But currently, there's a huge gap between desktops and workstations that was traditionally filled by HEDT.

My first encounter with a HEDT machine was when I had to assemble a machne for a friend in 2018. He had pretty high expectations that were impossible to meet with regular boards because they were full with conditions like, if you use this SATA port, then this M.2 slot is disabled; when you use that M.2 slot, some PCIe slot gets disabled. It was impossible to judge the capabilities of the MB from the ports that you see on the photos. So I picked a 12-core (at that time this was huge!) Threadripper 1920X with a X399 MB. Man, whan a relief! Everything was usable without affecting anything else. Ok, the U.2 port was just an alternative for one of the M.2 slots but there were three of those, all directly connected to the CPU! I was so impressed that I bought the same machine for myself. He is currently rocking 128GB (8x16GB) for ECC DDR4 memory, whereas I am only at 64GB(4x16). I have 7 NVMe SSDs (3 on the MB slots and 4 in an adapter running in a 4x4 bifurcated x16 slot).

I'm simply trying to convey that just because your needs are covered by a regular desktop machine, there aren't people whose needs might require something more, without jumping all the way to the highest end workstations. Those are fine, of course - you can always use a more powerfull machine for lesser workloads. But that may be 2-3 times more expensive than is possible with a real middle ground HEDT platform.

 

[bit_user]

I read elsewhere that the 34-core Raptor Lake is 100% a workstation chip, as those are all P-cores. No idea why they called it Raptor S, though. I wonder if the Sapphire Rapids monolithic workstation chips are internally called Alder S? They go up to 24 cores.

 

[peachpuff]

The consumer chips with 30+ threads aren't enough? If you need lanes, then I guess you gotta shell out for Ryzen pro.

When half the threads are gimped then yes.

 

[Eximo]

I read elsewhere that the 34-core Raptor Lake is 100% a workstation chip, as those are all P-cores. No idea why they called it Raptor S, though. I wonder if the Sapphire Rapids monolithic workstation chips are internally called Alder S? They go up to 24 cores.

Yep, it is coming back. 4, 6 and 8 channel memory. Up to 4 compute dies each with 15 CPU cores and two memory controllers. Though looks like the top spec chip will only have 56 cores. Not sure where they will draw the line between server and workstation. 34 cores seems reasonable. Almost double the old 18 cores.

And it will have AVX, which is something Intel got rid of on consumer (sort of) Another reason AMD might be the consumer grade workstation of choice going forward.

 

[wifiburger]

hope they bring HBM to consumer chips so we can stop praising x3d from AMD so much

 

[helper800]

There's more to HEDT than just threads/cores (and efficiency cores do not cut it!). Mostly a 4 channel memory controller which provides double the throughput but also double the capacity. Or, better speeds at he same capacity when you need 4 modules to achieve the required capacity. And ECC would be nice. Probably not from Intel, if history is any indication, but one would hope that being the underdog changes their perspective WRT market segmentation.

Then there's the PCIe connectivity. Since on desktop chips it's not enough, MB manufacturers are forced to guess the actual use case in order to come up with the slot distribution. This has had the effect that high-end MBs have worse distribution because current high-end GPUs (which you are supposed to use on a high-end MB, I guess) occupy up to 4 slots. And the first one is usually taken by the M.2 slot because you are supposed to use oversized CPU coolers which may interfere with the card in the first slot so it's risky to place the the GPU slot at the first position. Just give me four x16 slots (supporting 4x4 bifurcation) at positions 1,3,5,7 and three x4 slots in at least x8 physical slots at positions 2, 4 ,6. If that's not enough, then you clearly need a higher end workstation class machine and those are available. But currently, there's a huge gap between desktops and workstations that was traditionally filled by HEDT.

My first encounter with a HEDT machine was when I had to assemble a machne for a friend in 2018. He had pretty high expectations that were impossible to meet with regular boards because they were full with conditions like, if you use this SATA port, then this M.2 slot is disabled; when you use that M.2 slot, some PCIe slot gets disabled. It was impossible to judge the capabilities of the MB from the ports that you see on the photos. So I picked a 12-core (at that time this was huge!) Threadripper 1920X with a X399 MB. Man, whan a relief! Everything was usable without affecting anything else. Ok, the U.2 port was just an alternative for one of the M.2 slots but there were three of those, all directly connected to the CPU! I was so impressed that I bought the same machine for myself. He is currently rocking 128GB (8x16GB) for ECC DDR4 memory, whereas I am only at 64GB(4x16). I have 7 NVMe SSDs (3 on the MB slots and 4 in an adapter running in a 4x4 bifurcated x16 slot).

I'm simply trying to convey that just because your needs are covered by a regular desktop machine, there aren't people whose needs might require something more, without jumping all the way to the highest end workstations. Those are fine, of course - you can always use a more powerfull machine for lesser workloads. But that may be 2-3 times more expensive than is possible with a real middle ground HEDT platform.

My point being that if a consumer platform does not cover your needs, I gave a one of them but not all, you can get a Ryzen pro Threadripper Pro system which does cover all of those needs. I am aware of all the potential niceties of a HEDT platform. I just very poorly, and lazily worded my comment. The problem with HEDT is it eats into workstation profits because its essentially the same with with all the same features but much cheaper. There are definitely differences in the amount of magnitude these features provide but usually HEDT provides more than enough to cover most people that get workstation stuff, thus reducing profits and sales. My point is that I don't understand how on a business side putting out HEDT again to undermine your own workstation profits does the company any good.

 

[Co BIY]

Intel to Disclose Client PC Platform Roadmap Next Week : Read more

Sounds like a great article for next week. I'll be watching for it.

 

[bit_user]

Yep, it is coming back. 4, 6 and 8 channel memory. Up to 4 compute dies each with 15 CPU cores and two memory controllers.

The monolithic dies top out at 4 memory channels and 64 PCIe lanes.

Though looks like the top spec chip will only have 56 cores. Not sure where they will draw the line between server and workstation. 34 cores seems reasonable. Almost double the old 18 cores.

Looky here: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-sapphire-rapids-ws-lineup-leak

That confirms Xeon W models with up to 56 cores. That article is missing the lower-end models, which use monolithic dies, however.

The main differentiation point between server and workstation CPUs is whether the UPI links are enabled, to allow multi-processor configurations. There are probably also some RAS features that are missing from Xeon W models.

 

[bit_user]

My point being that if a consumer platform does not cover your needs, I gave a one of them but not all, you can get a Ryzen pro system which does cover all of those needs.

I think you're confusing Ryzen Pro with ThreadRipper Pro. Ryzen Pro offers very little beyond what you get in a normal Ryzen CPU/APU.

The problem with HEDT is it eats into workstation profits because its essentially the same with with all the same features but much cheaper.

HEDT usually enables overclocking in exchange for disabling ECC. Most proper workstation users want ECC and therefore won't simply substitute with a HEDT, while gamers want overclocking that's usually (but not always) disallowed in true workstation CPUs (arguably, for reliability reasons).

My point is that I don't understand how on a business side putting out HEDT again to undermine your own workstation profits does the company any good.

I think what really hurt the HEDT market was when you could start to get a 32-thread desktop CPU. Not a lot of gamers will need more than that. And most of the people who do (be it cores or platform features, like memory channels/capacity or PCIe lanes) can spring for a proper workstation CPU.

 

[helper800]

I think you're confusing Ryzen Pro with ThreadRipper Pro. Ryzen Pro offers very little beyond what you get in a normal Ryzen CPU/APU.

Correct, I meant Threadripper Pro.

HEDT usually enables overclocking in exchange for disabling ECC. Most proper workstation users want ECC and therefore won't simply substitute with a HEDT, while gamers want overclocking that's usually (but not always) disallowed in true workstation CPUs (arguably, for reliability reasons).

Except if we are talking about AMD all their CPUs are compatible with ECC memory if my memory serves, the problem them comes in finding a motherboard to support it at the consumer level.

I think what really hurt the HEDT market was when you could start to get a 32-thread desktop CPU. Not a lot of gamers will need more than that. And most of the people who do (be it cores or platform features, like memory channels/capacity or PCIe lanes) can spring for a proper workstation CPU.

The HEDT market was squeezed from above and below as we have detailed. How Intel is going to revive the HEDT market is more of a headscratcher for me , but its an all-round win for consumers either way, more options are nearly always better.

 

[helper800]

hope they bring HBM to consumer chips so we can stop praising x3d from AMD so much

Why is it that praising AMD is done so much that we need a rival product to cease doing so? What about how AMD having this product and gaining praise for it over Intel not having it is concerning you?

 

[bit_user]

Except if we are talking about AMD all their CPUs are compatible with ECC memory if my memory serves, the problem them comes in finding a motherboard to support it at the consumer level.

Well, I was talking about Intel.

Also, AMD APUs have ECC support disabled. That's where you're forced to buy a Ryzen Pro, if you want ECC. And they don't sell those on the open market.

 

[helper800]

Well, I was talking about Intel.

Also, AMD APUs have ECC support disabled. That's where you're forced to buy a Ryzen Pro, if you want ECC. And they don't sell those on the open market.

I was not aware of the APU's not having ECC support. What exactly do we mean when we say APU's here? Are AMD's 7000 series processors also considered APU's? I believe the 7000 series processors have limited ECC support, no? DDR5 has some form of ECC but not full ECC, right?

 

[bit_user]

I was not aware of the APU's not having ECC support. What exactly do we mean when we say APU's here? Are AMD's 7000 series processors also considered APU's?

Sorry, I should have clarified I was talking about 5000-series and before. I haven't followed the 7000-series closely enough to have seen anything about ECC support, but also the whole series hasn't launched yet. So, it's probably too soon to draw any conclusions about models with bigger iGPUs (i.e. equivalent to the older APUs).

DDR5 has some form of ECC but not full ECC, right?

DDR5 does on-die ECC, but that's not exposed externally to the DIMM, nor does it protect against data errors that occur between the memory dies and the host CPU (by default). There are DDR5 DIMMs with end-to-end ECC, but they're supported only on Intel W680 motherboards + select CPU models (among Intel desktop platforms) and are still hard to find (i.e. in unbuffered form).

As for the reason DDR5 uses on-die ECC: it's because smaller DRAM cells are more susceptible to errors. Also, they stretched out the refresh interval, and that makes it more likely the charge will decay on some marginal cells. The amount of on-die ECC that implementations use is just enough to counter those effects. So, the end result shouldn't be much better reliability than we've had with consumer DDR4 DIMMs. That's why they still make DDR5 DIMMs with end-to-end ECC (which also now have to be 80-bit, instead of 72-bit, making them just a little more expensive than before).

 

[bit_user]

Okay, so the week in question has come & gone. What news came out of it? Was it only stuff that had already been leaked?