News Intel's CPU instability and crashing issues also impact mainstream 65W and higher 'non-K' models — damage is irreversible, no planned recall

[YSCCC]

Open question for 13/14th gen users : the intel baseline patch reduces performance by (conservatively) 5 to 10%. Some reports say that in specific workloads upto 20% reduction in performance has been seen. I don’t necessarily believe the values but those I have read.

So, the question

What level of performance reduction is acceptable to you? 14th gen to 12th gen equivalent? Ryzen 7000? Ryzen 5000? 80286?
I’m curious where the acceptable line is. Please don’t be tribal in your answers.

Personally as long as it's still around 5-10% slower than what the original extreme porfile would do I will just let it be and wait for my next upgrade, but TBH, if you consider those practically unlimited reviews it will be massive, but I will view it as the intel Extreme profile as baseline, like ~39k cinebench R23, funny thing is if one is geeky enough you don't necessary loss performance, I am using air cooling and Z690, even so my 14900k using contact frame, undervolt 30mV and basically run intel extreme profile from day 1 still get 39k Cinebench R23 multithread, of course YMMV

 

[Loadedaxe]

Could this happen also on Intel 12th? because I don't have crashing, but I have Crackling none stop, a friend with 13700K has no issues at all. I remember it starts since I did a firmware update on the ASRock Z690 Extreme WIFI 6E

I was thinking already to buy 7800x3D right now, just CPU And MOB. I can't stand this crackling anymore

If it started after doing a bios update it is the MB. Revert back to the previous bios and profit.


Don't fall in to the "All hell I need to switch to AMD" camp. If your chip is running fine, then leave it alone. No one truly knows what is going on, just a ton of speculation and Intel isn't helping with guesses.

I am not having any issues with my 13th gen setups at all.

 

[TheHerald]

And the problem is, when basically all CPUs out there have potentially have their lifespan shortened, which is now well known and even reported by news, if a recall isn't out there, when the computers using the RPL processers eventually died, say in 5 years since their service, maybe due to completely normal issues like ram in a prebuilt gone bad, dried thermal paste etc. since it is a RPL and it dies relatively easy compared to what Intel CPUs used to survive (My old Sandy bridge still works since 2011 as my "document machine"), most will just blame the RPL just get shortened by the first year of defective design/oxidation, do you think they will just buy another Intel?

Right now we are already seeing server providers reported moving to AMD for reliability and frustration of previous RMA deny before it was widely reported to be really an intel issue. once that move was done it will be hard to get the customer faith back, the problem is actually a faith issue, not "ok, we finally cannot deny, and if your CPU died right now or within original warranty period, we will replace them as usual, if it somehow survived longer than the 3 years warranty, please go home and pay for another one yourself"

But the supposed August patch is going to fix that issue. I said supposed cause we don't know yet what it will do, but shouldn't the people that have no issues wait for the patch and see what it does, while everyone who experience issues just rmas the chip? Isn't that currently the most logical path to resolving the issue?

 

[TheHerald]

Open question for 13/14th gen users : the intel baseline patch reduces performance by (conservatively) 5 to 10%. Some reports say that in specific workloads upto 20% reduction in performance has been seen. I don’t necessarily believe the values but those I have read.

So, the question

What level of performance reduction is acceptable to you? 14th gen to 12th gen equivalent? Ryzen 7000? Ryzen 5000? 80286?
I’m curious where the acceptable line is. Please don’t be tribal in your answers.

Since it won't reduce my chips performance, because I don't run it out of the box anyways, I'll try to get into the shoes of someone that runs it out of the box.

As long as my chip remains faster than the alternative I could have bought at the time, it's fine by me. Say I just bought a 13700k that after the patches drops to a 28k cbr23 score, it's still way faster than the 7700x which costs roughly the same, so I can't really complain much. Especially if the reduction in performance most likely comes with a big increase in efficiency, it's a win win situation for me.

 

[YSCCC]

But the supposed August patch is going to fix that issue. I said supposed cause we don't know yet what it will do, but shouldn't the people that have no issues wait for the patch and see what it does, while everyone who experience issues just rmas the chip? Isn't that currently the most logical path to resolving the issue?

There's 2 main issues :
1) it is supposed to stop it from worsening only, not fixing what is overstressed. As degradation is a gradual process you won't know how far already have your chip's life been shortened.

2) Most of the CPUs out there are from system integraters or prebuilt PC from webstore, most even panic and ignore the update popping up every now and then, they used to say it's the MB vendors, software issue, GPU issue and all other excuses before finally cannot deny anymore and come up with this "fix", which was like almost 2 years since the first RPL launch and near end of cycle of this generation, and hundreds if not tens of thousands of customers and server operators alike have experienced very frustrating denied RMA as per those tech tuber revealed, and by now, no extended warranty and said they will re-evaluate your denied RMA request if you send it in again, which is likely months or even year old where you have already taken your own money and buy replacement or move on to AMD altogether.

Issue 1 is for those who are lucky enough that the chip appears running fine now (well, I havn't been playing Unreal Engine 5 games yet so maybe it will kick my butt when I eventually play one), but not sure had it already shortened it's lifespan somewhat, imagine your feeling if it failed just outside original warranty period of 3 years.

Issue 2 is a brand image issue, they have been very dodgy and deny it's their fault for almost the entire product cycle of RPL, and even after they are ready to announce the next gen Lunar Lake, the supposed "fix" still have not arrived, let alone verified to be working. it's essentially a big "F you" for the whole time where you pay for the TOTL product in it's product cycle, and it have been complained about 13900k ever since they were released.

Those recall/ monetary refund / no question asked replacement with extended warranty are basically just brand image damage control IMO, of course it's Intel's decision which is more important to them, but if it's just the "ok, since now we will at the moment be more open to RMA requests and who knows when we will tighten again", for those who have their CPU unstable for 2 years since 13900k? or at least have to tweak a ton of settings just hope it don't fry itself, and have to follow closely to these tech news to hope they can minimize their loss? Good luck they will choose to pay for another intel platform

 

[TheHerald]

There's 2 main issues :
1) it is supposed to stop it from worsening only, not fixing what is overstressed. As degradation is a gradual process you won't know how far already have your chip's life been shortened.

2) Most of the CPUs out there are from system integraters or prebuilt PC from webstore, most even panic and ignore the update popping up every now and then, they used to say it's the MB vendors, software issue, GPU issue and all other excuses before finally cannot deny anymore and come up with this "fix", which was like almost 2 years since the first RPL launch and near end of cycle of this generation, and hundreds if not tens of thousands of customers and server operators alike have experienced very frustrating denied RMA as per those tech tuber revealed, and by now, no extended warranty and said they will re-evaluate your denied RMA request if you send it in again, which is likely months or even year old where you have already taken your own money and buy replacement or move on to AMD altogether.

Issue 1 is for those who are lucky enough that the chip appears running fine now (well, I havn't been playing Unreal Engine 5 games yet so maybe it will kick my butt when I eventually play one), but not sure had it already shortened it's lifespan somewhat, imagine your feeling if it failed just outside original warranty period of 3 years.

Issue 2 is a brand image issue, they have been very dodgy and deny it's their fault for almost the entire product cycle of RPL, and even after they are ready to announce the next gen Lunar Lake, the supposed "fix" still have not arrived, let alone verified to be working. it's essentially a big "F you" for the whole time where you pay for the TOTL product in it's product cycle, and it have been complained about 13900k ever since they were released.

Those recall/ monetary refund / no question asked replacement with extended warranty are basically just brand image damage control IMO, of course it's Intel's decision which is more important to them, but if it's just the "ok, since now we will at the moment be more open to RMA requests and who knows when we will tighten again", for those who have their CPU unstable for 2 years since 13900k? or at least have to tweak a ton of settings just hope it don't fry itself, and have to follow closely to these tech news to hope they can minimize their loss? Good luck they will choose to pay for another intel platform

There is one small problem with your whole theory. The cpus don't just die. If your CPU due to early day degradation becomes unstable just after the warranty expires you can just...well you know...give it a tiny bit more voltage or drop the clocks 100mhz. There you go, problem solved. It's not like the CPU hits a point and it stops working.

At the end of the day, it doesn't even matter - since a recall of 20 million chips is just logistically impossible - it is what it is.

EG1. My main CPU, a 12900k, is degraded to hell and back btw. Still using 24/7 with no issues , no crashes, no bsods.

 

[stuff and nonesense]

At the end of the day, it doesn't even matter - since a recall of 20 million chips is just logistically impossible - it is what it is.

Intel has had the best part of a year of procrastinating, deflecting, denying, ignoring and hiding. In that time they could have made 40 million parts to cover any and all RMA requests.

Yes there would have been a lot of paperwork, they were able to sell plenty. They should be able to replace.

Remember, they sold an inherently flawed component. It was bad as it left the factory. Had that component shipped with a safe microcode it wouldn’t be failing. All this is on Intel.
They deflected onto the motherboard makers, these partners provided an environment for the chips to perform at high speeds and look really good in cinebench. Intel was happy until the fault reports came in then it became the “fault of the mobo makers”. Subsequent failures have shown that the CPUs are at fault.

Motherboard makers took plenty of flak for overvolting, providing “too much power” and were blamed for this debacle. They may have been complicit but they are not the root cause. That honour belongs to the good folk in Santa Clara.

It hasn’t reached the level of PR nightmare. If the story reaches the mainstream press.. whoa boy..

 

[stuff and nonesense]

Accidents happen. How they are dealt with determines how reputation is affected.

 

[YSCCC]

There is one small problem with your whole theory. The cpus don't just die. If your CPU due to early day degradation becomes unstable just after the warranty expires you can just...well you know...give it a tiny bit more voltage or drop the clocks 100mhz. There you go, problem solved. It's not like the CPU hits a point and it stops working.

At the end of the day, it doesn't even matter - since a recall of 20 million chips is just logistically impossible - it is what it is.

EG1. My main CPU, a 12900k, is degraded to hell and back btw. Still using 24/7 with no issues , no crashes, no bsods.

Sorry I still can't agree on this.

We pay full price for the whole stable package, not getting messed around, needing to tweak to lower it's speed or increase it's voltage to make it work and call it a day, it's like an engine with slow leak of oil and just tell them "it is what it is, just top it our ever so often when the engine light comes up", as I have said before, recall can be without replacement, just refund can do it also, you buy back what was a defective/flawed product you've released or you just replace it with something not broken. from day 1 nobody is even hoping they can have 20million chips to instant replace your recalled CPU, no product recall can ever replace 1 to 1, mostly by monetary compensation, extended (by a lot) warranty together with replacement of the fixed product.

At the end of the day, it probably won't matter to the users who luckily have it still working now approaching the release of new generation CPUs, but as I said earlier it's just like the 737 Max saga, guess how much money Intel will lose just because of reduced reputation and market share in the next gen or 2 at least? AMD Zen 5 is at least as fast if not faster than Intel, especially in gaming for the X3D chips, runs with a lot less power and at least their delayed release due to "found issue" is really good marketing, guess which CPU you will buy if your system need replacement or just BSOD/CTD as hell? most likely won't be another Intel.

Remember the news have already spread to a lot of system integrators and in the geek circle, and even games now pop up warnings if you have a RPL in use telling you have a crap CPU and if you crash, it's your CPU not us. That without recall is the best PR exercise I have seen in the tech industry

 

[slightnitpick]

Intel has had the best part of a year of procrastinating, deflecting, denying, ignoring and hiding. In that time they could have made 40 million parts to cover any and all RMA requests.

And those 40 million parts would have had exactly the same problem until they discovered what had actually gone wrong.

 

[YSCCC]

And those 40 million parts would have had exactly the same problem until they discovered what had actually gone wrong.

True though but if they have faith their fix is a true fix and RPL is actually a usable product, that shouldn't happen, and if the design is so flawed that it will just die early, then it is a huge PR nightmare and the only thing I could imagine to save their image is to offer very high discount or even free next gen CPU of the same grade... or just buy it back and have a full refund

 

[Taslios]

Intel's earnings report is tomorrow.

I am curious what if anything they say about the issues on 13th/14th gen RMA's One would think they will want to bury it as deep as possible, but also have to legally report financial implications....

 

[slightnitpick]

it's like an engine with slow leak of oil and just tell them "it is what it is, just top it our ever so often when the engine light comes up",

You're describing my first new car which was known to eat oil at a consistent rate. Though usually it wouldn't need to be topped off when doing the recommended 3000 mile oil change interval.

 

[Taslios]

You're describing my first new car which was known to eat oil at a consistent rate. Though usually it wouldn't need to be topped off when doing the recommended 3000 mile oil change interval.

And this is why you learn and probably avoid buying "Dodge, Ford, Fiat, VW, etc" in the future.

There are some who will shrug and say the issue is overblown.

And others who have been left with a less than satisfactory taste in their mouths

and then the majority of consumers are likely completely oblivious.....

The real question is how have these issues affected OEMs and larger intel partners?

If Dell were to go.. Nope we are switching primary focus to AMD 80% of our new builds are AMD moving forward... the average consumer now likely shops more for Apple, Dell, HP, Lenovo than the processor inside and that... that will in the end be Intel's downfall.

Not the piddly few consumers in the DIY market.

 

[stuff and nonesense]

You're describing my first new car which was known to eat oil at a consistent rate. Though usually it wouldn't need to be topped off when doing the recommended 3000 mile oil change interval.

If you bought it knowing that was a characteristic of the engine.. your choice

Microcode update notwithstanding, once the cpu has hit empty it is dead.

 

[Taslios]

Intel's earnings report is tomorrow.

I am curious what if anything they say about the issues on 13th/14th gen RMA's One would think they will want to bury it as deep as possible, but also have to legally report financial implications....

Actually...

Dell's Earnings report is later in August. If they report less than grand earnings due to increased RMA's.... the general media "forbes, Marketwatch", etc may suddenly care and things may be interesting.

We really honestly have no idea how many RMA's or issues this has created and until the larger OEMs start reporting on it... it really is just speculation.

 

[YSCCC]

And this is why you learn and probably avoid buying "Dodge, Ford, Fiat, VW, etc" in the future.

There are some who will shrug and say the issue is overblown.

And others who have been left with a less than satisfactory taste in their mouths

and then the majority of consumers are likely completely oblivious.....

The real question is how have these issues affected OEMs and larger intel partners?

If Dell were to go.. Nope we are switching primary focus to AMD 80% of our new builds are AMD moving forward... the average consumer now likely shops more for Apple, Dell, HP, Lenovo than the processor inside and that... that will in the end be Intel's downfall.

Not the piddly few consumers in the DIY market.

Exactly my point, a recall is a very expensive solution to salvage the brand image degradation, if nothing was done, good luck they will not go down the drain as the CPU market giant who only lived in history, since Zen 4 we've seen the laptop market started to have almost 3:7 or even 4:6 offering AMD solutions, if this 2 years have hit the major OEMs or the server side of things hard enough, once the trend is gone, kids will know AMD is the better and more reliable brand as opposed to when we were kids only knowing intel inside

 

[slightnitpick]

If you bought it knowing that was a characteristic of the engine.. your choice

They didn't advertise it.

And this is why you learn and probably avoid buying "Dodge, Ford, Fiat, VW, etc" in the future.

No, I wish I still had that car (had to get rid of it for a cross country move). As I said, the oil burn was reliable and almost always wasn't an issue as long as I changed the oil in a timely manner. And other than a radiator change and some other maintenance items it was fuel efficient and reliable.

This is a big headache for Intel, but unlike the issue with the 737 MAX it is one that can, and will, be remedied in future offerings (even in the future 14th gen processors). Fixing the known weight distribution issues of the 737 MAX with software, from the beginning, was always a bad idea.

 

[thestryker]

Exactly my point, a recall is a very expensive solution to salvage the brand image degradation, if nothing was done, good luck they will not go down the drain as the CPU market giant who only lived in history, since Zen 4 we've seen the laptop market started to have almost 3:7 or even 4:6 offering AMD solutions, if this 2 years have hit the major OEMs or the server side of things hard enough, once the trend is gone, kids will know AMD is the better and more reliable brand as opposed to when we were kids only knowing intel inside

Seeing as AMD sold ~8 million CPUs in the desktop/notebook market compared to ~50 million from Intel Q4 last year this just isn't a thing. The split there is ~69% in favor of notebooks so assuming Intel isn't lying about them not being affected the vast majority of their consumer market wouldn't know there's any problem.

A lot of enthusiasts don't seem to grasp how little AMD has despite putting out fantastic products. The only place they've made consistent gains has been the server/enterprise market.

edit: corrected timeline had read chart wrong.

 

[jayjr1105]

Seeing as AMD sold ~8 million CPUs in the desktop/notebook market compared to ~50 million from Intel last year this just isn't a thing. The split there is ~69% in favor of notebooks so assuming Intel isn't lying about them not being affected the vast majority of their consumer market wouldn't know there's any problem.

A lot of enthusiasts don't seem to grasp how little AMD has despite putting out fantastic products. The only place they've made consistent gains has been the server/enterprise market.

Mindshare takes time to kick in. AMD in a lot of people's minds was the budget low end option for so long. Common folks don't realize until several years after if AMD has made strides and even has the lead. Intel was always the safe (it just works) bet up until now.

 

[YSCCC]

Seeing as AMD sold ~8 million CPUs in the desktop/notebook market compared to ~50 million from Intel last year this just isn't a thing. The split there is ~69% in favor of notebooks so assuming Intel isn't lying about them not being affected the vast majority of their consumer market wouldn't know there's any problem.

A lot of enthusiasts don't seem to grasp how little AMD has despite putting out fantastic products. The only place they've made consistent gains has been the server/enterprise market.

It isn't a thing YET, but it's already a good gain from them, and you have to understand that most of the sales are from coporate sales, like buying thousands of notebooks for employees to work from home or client meetings, those market historically was dominated by Intel by precisely their brand image, and for tthe past year or two more and more corporate are advised by server providers like Wendell is one of those who provide servers to their clients now with his network, starting to persuade customers to switch to AMD offerings for stability, and when prebuilt PC having more issues on intel RMA compared to their AMD offerings, guess will they promote and offer more AMD systems? this whole saga is still evolving and intel only admitted it's their fault very recently where a lot of DIYers haven't noticed, brand image takes time to kick in, but such massive F up will accelerate the process by quite a lot, especially if some OEMs just can't stand ppl saying their product is unstable and rightfully kick back the blame to intel, it will be much harder to salvage reputation.

We will wait and see, and if Intel don't act drastically, I will ready my popcorn and see how it will bite them back hard.

 

[Taslios]

Seeing as AMD sold ~8 million CPUs in the desktop/notebook market compared to ~50 million from Intel last year this just isn't a thing. The split there is ~69% in favor of notebooks so assuming Intel isn't lying about them not being affected the vast majority of their consumer market wouldn't know there's any problem.

A lot of enthusiasts don't seem to grasp how little AMD has despite putting out fantastic products. The only place they've made consistent gains has been the server/enterprise market.

Where are you getting your numbers for the volume sold?

AMD is VASTLY smaller than Intel but 8 million to 50 million is a larger discrepancy than the reported Market % would seem to indicate. Mercury Research and others seem to indicate that AMD commands around 19% of the mobile market and 23-26% of the Server/Consumer market and is gaining share in all areas.

If they are gaining share vrs intel then assuming Intel sold 50 million units then AMD's unit sales should be at minimum 10 million units, but again, they are gaining market share of installed systems, not new sales so the number could be significantly different.

Either way, I've not seen direct x number of units sold info so I'm curious.

 

[Peksha]

Could this happen also on Intel 12th? because I don't have crashing, but I have Crackling none stop, a friend with 13700K has no issues at all. I remember it starts since I did a firmware update on the ASRock Z690 Extreme WIFI 6E

I was thinking already to buy 7800x3D right now, just CPU And MOB. I can't stand this crackling anymore

Some motherboards have an Acoustic Noise setting in BIOS. If yours doesn't have it or it doesn't help, and you're seriously considering replacing the board just because of this, then upgrading to AM5 is the right solution, because LGA1700 is already EOL.

 

[thestryker]

We will wait and see, and if Intel don't act drastically, I will ready my popcorn and see how it will bite them back hard.

You still don't seem to get it. Unless Intel is lying about what CPUs are affected less than 10% of what they've sold since RPL launch could even potentially be impacted by this problem. Them spending billions of dollars to "act drastically" would do significantly more harm to the company than taking things case by case and attempting to resolve the problem.

This isn't to say they've done a good, or even acceptable, job addressing this problem as of now. They also haven't given any indication as to what they may do as far as extending warranty or other possible support options.

 

[Taslios]

You still don't seem to get it. Unless Intel is lying about what CPUs are affected less than 10% of what they've sold since RPL launch could even potentially be impacted by this problem. Them spending billions of dollars to "act drastically" would do significantly more harm to the company than taking things case by case and attempting to resolve the problem.

This isn't to say they've done a good, or even acceptable, job addressing this problem as of now. They also haven't given any indication as to what they may do as far as extending warranty or other possible support options.

Intel believes less than 10%.... Alderon Games has experienced ~50% and expect ~100%

Either Intel is downplaying the failures to an extent that may be legally.... negligent, or Alderon Games has had VERY bad luck.

Realistically at the moment we don't have the statistics to back up either claim.

There is a risk that Alderon is correct and without the microcode 100% of cpus will fail. There is also the possibility that the vast majority will never have anything but very occasional problems.

IF Intel is right this is a lot of Pitchfork nation over nothing
IF Alderon Games is right...... this issue is going to be a black eye on Intel for a very very long time.

As a consumer we should all be hoping that Intel is more correct than Alderon Games. Intel digging their own grave or having to have mass layoffs be it their own arrogance or inability to accept they are no longer #1 in all things is still a bad thing for us the consumer.