News Intel's next-gen desktop CPUs have leaked — Arrow Lake Core Ultra 200 series share similar core counts with Raptor Lake Refresh

[TerryLaze]

They're killing hyperthreading because it's a free 15% ipc improvement thanks to all the specter and other exploit fixes over the years. killing off hyperthreading allows them to drop the performance killing exploit protections.

That's down from the performance benefit that HTT gives to the workload...
Removing HTT will remove all performance benefit and not just the part that the fix removes.

Also rentable units uses two completely separate cores to run parts of the same thread so it is potentially even worse/more vulnerable to attacks.

 

[TechyIT223]

There's no reason at all to upgrade from a raptor lake to a new cpu from any brand.
You can skip the dd5 generation and goes directly to ddr6 and pci 6 gen

DDR6 and PCI e 6 platform are still too early for an adoption. They are not mainstream yet. Also there is little benefit for gen 6 Platform yet since the current bandwidth is still yet to be fully utilised by GPUs and SSDs.

 

[Deleted member 2731765]

Yeah, we have yet to see full utilization of the PCI-e Gen 5 bandwidth, let alone 6.0 version, at least on the "consumer" side of things ! Current GPUs can't even fully saturate the current PCIe bandwidth.

Just having PCIe 5.0 doesn't make a GPU or an SSD better/faster though. That's especially true for GPUs, and it's unlikely that PCIe 6.0 will be a game changer for graphics cards, since they usually come with more than enough bandwidth already.

 

[TechyIT223]

Im still on PCIe 3.0 platform btw , and still have not yet encountered any serious gaming bottlenecks.

But once I upgrade my rig, I do need some extra bandwidth for my work and ddr5 might help in that case.

 

[Deleted member 2731765]

Slide taken from MSI's recent Dragon Shield "Wuhan" event. Arrow Lake-S "Core Ultra 200" Desktop platform was also teased.

The series could feature a brand new DDR5 memory controller, an updated IMC.

 

[TheHerald]

At default clocks HTT has no effect on clocks at all, it will create more heat and use more power but it will also increase performance by the same amount.

But a CPU with no HTT can ship with higher clocks than if they had HTT on.

The performance impact in CBR23 by disabling HT is around 10% on a 14900k. From around 41k score to 36-37k. But the CPU runs way cooler and draws way less power with it off.

 

[NinoPino]

There's no reason at all to upgrade from a raptor lake to a new cpu from any brand.
You can skip the dd5 generation and goes directly to ddr6 and pci 6 gen

Power usage is one reason.

 

[NinoPino]

They're killing hyperthreading because it's a free 15% ipc improvement thanks to all the specter and other exploit fixes over the years. killing off hyperthreading allows them to drop the performance killing exploit protections.

True but to have improvements, a recompilation should be needed.
If this is the case may be a problem with all the existing data center softwares.

 

[NinoPino]

FACTS - Hyperthreading (any symmetric multithreading, in fact) increases power usage and heat output.

Yes.

CPUs will throttle once they hit their TDP/PPT limit. CPUs will hit their TDP/PPT limit sooner and more frequently due to having hyperthreading enabled.

Depends on the CPU.
For example, if the CPU remains cool also with all cores under full load at the maximum clock allowed and respecting the maximum TDP.

 

[NinoPino]

On the discussion about no Hyperthreading . Sure, in applications like Cinebench hyperthreading (HT) offers 25-30% improvement in the multithreaded (MT) performance of the P-cores. But hyperthreading doesn’t offer a 25-30% improvement in the MT performance of a hybrid 14th gen chip as the e-cores never had HT and the 14900K has 16 of them. In particular for the 14900K the Cinebench score with HT enabled is around 40K and with HT disabled the score falls to around 35K. So enabling HT improves the performance of the chip by around 14%. This is something that can be compensated by improving the per core performance (during multithreaded workloads) of both the P-cores and E-cores by 14% through a combination of better IPC and higher all-core clockspeeds.

The performance impact in CBR23 by disabling HT is around 10% on a 14900k. From around 41k score to 36-37k. But the CPU runs way cooler and draws way less power with it off.

All right but Intel need to compete with Zen 5, not with the disastrous 14900.

 

[NinoPino]

The lack of Hyperthreading may simply mean that Intel is giving up with high multithreaded softwares to gain traction on consumer desktop softwares with this series of CPUs.
They lack in games because X3D, so optimizing for low threads cam be highly beneficial for desktop, mobile and games.

 

[TerryLaze]

But a CPU with no HTT can ship with higher clocks than if they had HTT on.

The performance impact in CBR23 by disabling HT is around 10% on a 14900k. From around 41k score to 36-37k. But the CPU runs way cooler and draws way less power with it off.

How much cooler and less power does the 14900k use when you clock it that much lower that it has 10% less performance in cinebench?!
How much higher clocks could you get from disabling HTT and would it come near the performance you would lose?

The lack of Hyperthreading may simply mean that Intel is giving up with high multithreaded softwares to gain traction on consumer desktop softwares with this series of CPUs.

If that would be the case they would also get rid of the e-cores that are creating much more issues than htt, in fact e-cores would go away way before htt.

They lack in games because X3D, so optimizing for low threads cam be highly beneficial for desktop, mobile and games.

They lack in games that can use a big cache and not in games in general, if they wanted to remedy that they would invest in research to integrate more cache or make an x3d cache of their own.

 

[TheHerald]

All right but Intel need to compete with Zen 5, not with the disastrous 14900.

Zen 5 won't even beat 13th gen - let alone 14th gen on most segments. As far as we know they are not increasing core counts, so their 8600x (or whatever they call it) ain't coming anywhere near the 13600k in MT performance, their 8700x ain't coming nowhere near the i7 13700k etc.

Intel are basically competing with themselves when it comes to MT (and ST actually).

EG1. Actually scratch that, I'm not even sure the R5 and the R7 are going to beat 12th gen in MT. Let's hope so, we need competition.

 

[TheHerald]

How much cooler and less power does the 14900k use when you clock it that much lower that it has 10% less performance in cinebench?!
How much higher clocks could you get from disabling HTT and would it come near the performance you would lose?

You could probably squeeze 100mhz on the Pcores and another 100 on the Ecores. That's not a lot obviously, but the performance decrease from HT off isn't much to begin with.

 

[NinoPino]

Zen 5 won't even beat 13th gen - let alone 14th gen on most segments. As far as we know they are not increasing core counts, so their 8600x (or whatever they call it) ain't coming anywhere near the 13600k in MT performance, their 8700x ain't coming nowhere near the i7 13700k etc.

Intel are basically competing with themselves when it comes to MT (and ST actually).

EG1. Actually scratch that, I'm not even sure the R5 and the R7 are going to beat 12th gen in MT. Let's hope so, we need competition.

Are you trolling or have you watched the wrong film ?
This is what Tom's benchmarked :
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/t5cHUBDFKVm6We2GvJLwZV.png

 

[NinoPino]

If that would be the case they would also get rid of the e-cores that are creating much more issues than htt, in fact e-cores would go away way before htt.

Agree. Imho these are models aimed at low threaded softwares and I think we will also see models with HT enabled with a lot of Pcores to HPC and workstation workloads.

They lack in games that can use a big cache and not in games in general,

Obviously we are talking of the average score on all games.

if they wanted to remedy that they would invest in research to integrate more cache or make an x3d cache of their own.

Maybe that Intel in the immediate have nothing ready to contrast 3D cache so that have tried this way.
I'm excited to see the overall performance of this new architectures.

 

[TechyIT223]

Let's see how Intel's Arrow Lake S chips do in multi threaded works and apps. I'm more interested in per core single core performance. How much IPC can they offer ? I guess not by a huge margin though

 

[TheHerald]

Are you trolling or have you watched the wrong film ?
This is what Tom's benchmarked :
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/t5cHUBDFKVm6We2GvJLwZV.png

And what do you see there? The i5 13600k and the i7 13700k are miles ahead of their competition, the r5 7600x and the r7 7700x. And so is the 13900k over the 7900x. Need I remind you that those cpus were released as price competitors?

 

[NinoPino]

And what do you see there? The i5 13600k and the i7 13700k are miles ahead of their competition, the r5 7600x and the r7 7700x. And so is the 13900k over the 7900x. Need I remind you that those cpus were released as price competitors?

LoL

 

[TheHerald]

LoL

? Your own graph shows the i5 13600k beating even the 7700x man, yes it is funny when and i5 beats in R7 butt hey, what can ya do?

 

[TerryLaze]

Maybe that Intel in the immediate have nothing ready to contrast 3D cache so that have tried this way.

I think intel just doesn't want to do it, it really hurt AMD sales of their normal lineup and they still have to sell them pretty cheap.
Intel doesn't want to spend more on their CPUs and get less money for it overall because less people will buy the higher models, intel will just slowly increase the cache overall for all CPUs, that's my guess.

 

[NinoPino]

? Your own graph shows the i5 13600k beating even the 7700x man, yes it is funny when and i5 beats in R7 butt hey, what can ya do?

In your first posts you was writing of 14900, so you must compare it with 7950. Later you wrote "Zen 5 won't even beat 13th gen - let alone 14th gen on most segments", let alone zen 5, also zen 4 is already better than 14th gen as the graph demostrate.
Obviously choosing only the models that favor Intel is not a good compare.

 

[TheHerald]

In your first posts you was writing of 14900, so you must compare it with 7950.

All intel CPUS will drop HT, not just the 14900.

In your first posts you was writing of 14900, so you must compare it with 7950. Later you wrote "Zen 5 won't even beat 13th gen - let alone 14th gen on most segments", let alone zen 5, also zen 4 is already better than 14th gen as the graph demostrate.
Obviously choosing only the models that favor Intel is not a good compare.

"Choosing only the models that favor Intel".

All models bar one favor Intel.

The Intel i5 13600k competed against the R5 7600x (same MSRP, same name), and the 13600k beats it easily in MT performance. You can turn off HT and the i5 will still beat it.

The Intel i7 13700k competed against the R7 7700x (same MSRP, same name) and the 13700k beats it easily in MT performance. You can turn off HT and the i7 will still beat it.

The Intel i9 13900k competed against the R9 7900x (same name, MSRP was a bit higher on the i9 but still nowhere near the 7950x) and it was actually destroying the 7900x in MT. Again ,you can turn HT off and it will still be a walk in the park.

The 7950x had no direct competitor in MT (yes, the i9 was faster, but you had to push it to high wattages for that) hence the price was 110$ higher than the 13900k.

Let's agree to meet back here when zen 5 is released and let's if the R5 8600x, r7 8700x and r9 8900x beat their 13th gen competitors in MT. I think they won't. They won't even come close actually.

 

[NinoPino]

All intel CPUS will drop HT,...

Who knows, they could drop HT only on low end or consumer models. Lets will see when released.

...not just the 14900.

You choose to debate HT performance comparing new models with 14900.

 

[TheHerald]

Who knows, they could drop HT only on low end or consumer models. Lets will see when released.


You choose to debate HT performance comparing new models with 14900.

I wasn't comparing anything. I gave an example of how much performance drops by turning HT off on a 14900k. Then you said that Intel isn't competing with 14900 but with zen 5. I disagree with that, I think zen 5 is competing with 13th gen.

We will see when it's released, I think 13th gen will sitll be faster than Zen 5 in all 3 major segments (8600x, 8700x, 8900x). Maybe amd will lower the segments and release the 8600x as an r3 etc. and save the day.

That's why I said intel competes with intel in MT performance, amd isn't really in the picture in most segments.

Regarding HT, if they remove the hardware part of it from the core then there won't be HT on any model.