[SOLVED] Is an 8 year old build worth upgrading ?

[sherhi]

Hello, I would like to ask this community if my 8 years old build is worth upgrading. It was made by my friend for studying/PhD database work/gaming of course. Now my studies&PhD are done and gaming is starting to struggle with this build.

Core i7-4790K 4 GHz Quad-Core
Asus MAXIMUS VII HERO ATX LGA1150
Kingston 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR3-2133
Samsung 850 Evo 500 GB 2.5" SSD
Asus GeForce GTX 760 2 GB DirectCU II

I am looking for an upgrade of this if it's worth it - GPU would be my first candidate but I don't know which to choose to not spend hundreds of euros (the more it goes towards 1000€ the better it is to build new PC I guess) and I also don't want to overkill it. Is there any upgrade that would prolong this build? I play MMOs like ESO or WoW, Witcher 3, Civ6 etc and I just keep lowering settings more and more :/

 

[USAFRet]

Then enjoy your pc while others are frantically going back and forth about whether the new releases are actually going to be worth the supposed prices.

Indeed.

There was a guy here a few years ago.
3 years of back and forth parts selection, buying, and then selling for the new/next shiny.
Spent more in restocking fees and selling his stuff than a whole PC cost.

And never actually got to press the power button on a working system.

 

[Karadjgne]

Heh, yeah. 3rd to 4th gen, not really much of an upgrade, waiting on 5th was a disaster. 6-8th didn't see much, 9th wasn't bad, 10th about the same, 11th did nothing. The only real difference was 12th, and basically only in the i3/i5 unless you were after production. 3rd-12th is a big difference overall but that's a 10 year+ waiting period, individual years are only 5-10% better on average, or about 3-6 fps.

And prices don't drop with releases, prices drop when Intel, amd or nvidia decide to change directions or grab a bigger share of the market or make up for lost ground.

 

[mdd1963]

Cpu cannot ever be a bottleneck.

Not sure what you actually meant to say or try to say here, but, that statement is just plain ridiculous... as it is written.

So today we learned that an old 4790K with but 4c/8t will not ever be slower than more modern CPUs, like a 12400? Or 12900K?

Wow. ...

 

[USAFRet]

Not sure what you actually meant to say or try to say here, but, that statement is just plain ridiculous... as it is written.

So today we learned that an old 4790K with but 4c/8t will not ever be slower than more modern CPUs, like a 12400? Or 12900K?

Wow. ...

The statement goes back to the definition of "bottleneck".

One of the most misunderstood and misused terms in common PC parlance.

 

[mdd1963]

To say/imply the CPU is never a limiting factor in gaming is just short of ridiculous, especially when both are given newer/faster GPUs and then compared... (such as occurs in all CPU gaming reviews) I try to avoid the term 'bottleneck', as just because an 11900K is the 'limiting factor' in 1080P framerates when compared to a 5800X3D (if/when both are given a 3090), that hardly makes it useless. (It never helps the matter when many folks actually use the dubious term backwards anyway, like 'my GPU is bottlenecking my CPU', etc..

Technically, and CPU not equipped with a 3090Ti is being partially limited/held back by the GPU.

Any GPU not equipped with a 5800X3D or 12900KS is being held back by the CPU.

Below comparison shows a 12100F cranking out more than 50% increase over a 4790K in Minecraft at 5:10 in the video...; the difference in Hitman framerates sometimes exceeds 60%.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phzUEILOokY

 

[Karadjgne]

Not sure what you actually meant to say or try to say here, but, that statement is just plain ridiculous... as it is written.

So today we learned that an old 4790K with but 4c/8t will not ever be slower than more modern CPUs, like a 12400? Or 12900K?

Wow. ...

Think about it, on more than a surface level. If the cpu is the source of fps, which it is since it's responsible for actually putting a frame together, then tell me how it can ever possibly hold back the performance of any other component downstream. If the cpu is only capable of 100fps output, then that's what the gpu gets regardless of whether the gpu is capable of 200fps or more. It gets 100fps. Which absolutely is not 'holding back' the performance of the gpu. Change games, and now the cpu is putting 300fps out. Still a bottleneck? No. It is what it is. It's never a clean, simple static number, it changes from frame time to frame time. Run through town at 50fps, around the corner to 100fps, out the gate for 200fps. But it's the cpus fault for being a bottleneck at 50fps, right? Better go buy a better cpu then, more core's, higher IPC, faster clocks, because at 50fps in the city its a bottleneck, you gotta have more.

Cpu Never holds back or limits the performance of a gpu. The gpu Always performs at 100% of its ability for every single frame it receives. The amount of frames is moot. Don't mistake Ability for Capacity.

The term 'bottleneck' only applies to the perception of the user. If the user Wants 100fps in the city, but is only getting 50, that's considered a bottleneck, by the user. Wanting and Getting are most often 2 different animals, but the fact remains that the cpu is not holding back the gpu, the cpu just isn't delivering enough for what the user feels he Wants. Which means moving from the 4790k to the 12400k, to get higher fps.

 

[Darkbreeze]

If the cpu is only capable of 100fps output, then that's what the gpu gets regardless of whether the gpu is capable of 200fps or more. It gets 100fps. Which absolutely is not 'holding back' the performance of the gpu.

Sorry man, but I have to disagree here. And we've had this discussion before.

Your own statement is self contradictory. You say the GPU is capable of 200fps or more, but it only "gets" 100fps from the CPU. That is, in fact, the EXACT definition of a bottleneck, or limiting factor, or logjam, or whatever word you want to use in regard to something that holds something else back due to not have equivalent or complimentary performance capabilities.

It's not even a technicality. It's, literally, what it sounds like. And given the right circumstances, much as I hate using the term bottleneck, almost any piece of hardware can be one. A weak CPU can absolutely be the bottleneck for a more capable graphics card. A weak graphics card can absolutely be a bottleneck to a more capable CPU. MEMORY can be a bottleneck, to both of them. In some situations, a storage device might be the bottleneck or even a motherboard, because of the limitations of (for example) an older motherboard with a SATA, PCIe or USB bus standard that is holding back performance. Hell, even in the same generation, all things being equal, we've seen motherboards that could be the bottleneck because reviews have shown that different boards using exactly identical hardware can have drastically different performance characteristics, in both real world and synthetic comparisons. 92fps on one board with CPU model X and GPU model X, while getting 105fps using exact same CPU, GPU, memory, drive, etc. on a different board. That's a bottleneck, because it's holding back the hardware from performing at the level you already know it could perform at.

But that IS getting at least a tiny bit technical, but saying a CPU can be a bottleneck to a graphics card, certainly isn't. I'll argue that from here to the event horizon with anybody who wants to argue it.

It's not "perception". It's LITERALLY holding back performance. Period.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Any GPU not equipped with a 5800X3D or 12900KS is being held back by the CPU.

Gotta argue with you too, because you too, are wrong. Sorry.

This is wrong, because, depending on the graphics card's capabilities, at some point having a more capable CPU may not make ANY DIFFERENCE whatsoever, in which case there is no benefit to having a CPU that has higher performance because it will never get utilized. It's called being GPU limited. If you have a card that can only do 60fps and your CPU is already capable of doing 60fps then it doesn't matter WHAT CPU you put in there with it, it is STILL ONLY going to get 60fps.

Being realistic, you guys know, at least I hope you do, that having as close to equivalent hardware as possible in terms of performance, balanced, is the ticket to building correctly without overspending needlessly. There is no reason to have a 600 dollar CPU with a 400 dollar graphics card, if a 400 dollar CPU is already capable of allowing the graphics card to work at it's maximum potential. The ONLY exceptions to this are when you plan to upgrade the other piece of hardware in the near to mid term future, in which case it often makes sense to just get the better part now and have it be overkill until you upgrade since it won't hurt you in any way to have too much performance on one side IF the performance on the weaker side is because of an existing part, a lack of ability to afford a higher performance part right now (In which case you expect it, and can logically disregard the idea of it being a bottleneck since you could only afford the 400 dollar graphics card right now anyhow) OR in those circumstances where a game is largely CPU intensive rather than GPU intensive.

And aside from all that, none of it is really a bottleneck at all ANYHOW, IF you are meeting the target FPS you need in order to achieve what is desired in regards to the capabilties of your display, the type of game you are playing and your personal preferences, so long as that means you don't end up with a problem of some kind like tearing, etc.

 

[Karadjgne]

That's a bottleneck, because it's holding back the hardware from performing at the level you already know it could perform at.

But that's just it. It isn't. Whether the gpu is capable of more or not is capacity, not performance/ability. The gpu puts the exact same amount of effort into a frame, all the clock speed, all the vram speed, all the graphics, everything, full 100% ability. Whether that's 10fps or 100fps is immaterial, it puts forth 100% performance per frame for the first or last frame, every time.

I'd only consider it a bottleneck if you equate performance based solely on fps output amount, which is subjective and user defined, not actual hardware defined. It's the user who sets the definition of expected fps, the cpu just supplies whatever it supplies regardless of what the user wants. It is totally a perception, you either get enough fps to suit your wants, or you don't. The cpu doesn't hamper the gpu, doesn't slow it down, hold it back, it will always put forth its full capability for every single frame.

The problem isn't with the term bottleneck, it's with the definition and application of performance. A cpu will not slow down if slow ram takes too long to send data, or storage. The cpu clock speeds remain the same, the IPC remains the same, everything remains the same. Including the performance of the cpu. The only thing changed is the fps amount and if you don't think it's enough, that's on you, the user, perception.

 

[sherhi]

I opened the case today, Zalman ZM1000-EBT is the power source (someone was writing about it).

I have made a list of a new PC and will watch prices over next few months.

 

[Zerk2012]

All of that is right and wrong, to many different factors to consider.

I can't think of a single game a 4790K can't push 60 FPS in.
So if my target FPS was 60 using a 4K monitor with everything cranked up I could use a 3080ti and everything would be fine.

W11 support who cares.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Anything that holds something else back is a bottleneck. Period. If a thing can give a certain amount of output, no matter what that thing is, but is dependent on something else to not limit it's output and that thing limits it's output, it is a bottleneck. Period.

 

[Zerk2012]

Anything that holds something else back is a bottleneck. Period. If a thing can give a certain amount of output, no matter what that thing is, but is dependent on something else to not limit it's output and that thing limits it's output, it is a bottleneck. Period.

I agree with that but they have never and will never be a PC without one and it can change to different parts depending on what your doing.

EDIT All I was saying was depending on the game, target FPS, monitor resolution they could be no limit on what video card he could use.

From what he originally said in the first, (I have to keep turning the settings down) then a good card would let him crank them back up and also be used in a new build when the processor no longer can hit the target FPS>

 

[Darkbreeze]

Right. But the question at hand wasn't to what level or extend, but only whether it existed at all, which of course it does depending on the scenario. But yes, nothing is ever truly equal, but it doesn't have to be. It just needs (And not even needs, necessarily, on a case by case basis) to not be extremely unbalanced unless the weakest component is still capable of meeting the desired expectations.

 

[joan16v]

You can upgrade the GPU. I would try to find a second hand GTX 1080, for example.

 

[sherhi]

You can upgrade the GPU. I would try to find a second hand GTX 1080, for example.

second hand market in my area has prices all over the place, this model is like 250-450€, I would be willing to buy used product only if it was still under warranty (1 year minimum) and at half the price of a new product

 

[Darkbreeze]

Buying a used graphics card or motherboard is usually a huge gamble, like playing craps, because you have no way to know what you are getting and aside from a very small group of people out there who might have paid for EVGA's transferable limited warranty program, warranties on motherboards and graphics cards are generally expressly NOT valid after resale to a third party by an original purchaser. So unless the seller agrees to be willing to facilitate any warranty interactions between your and the company, you really have no recourse if something goes wrong even if the product is technically under warranty since these warranties are not transferable in most cases.

And for any product not still under warranty, you are REALLY taking a big risk, because it's notably common for motherboards and graphics cards, in many cases, to begin experiencing problems or outright failures at any point between three and five years old and since most of these products have only three year warranties, buying used makes this problematic because in an awful lot of cases the only reason somebody is selling that item is because they were beginning to have problems with it or know the hardware is failing. I would personally never recommend buying any motherboard or graphics card that does not have full warranty, and that means buying new. The exception might be that if the person you are buying from is somebody you know well and trust, but that is going to be an extremely rare occasion. It's just too risky and I've seen far too many people get shafted by purchasing these items used.

 

[WarWolverineWarrior]

Get a RTX 3080 if you can find the connectors for the PSU to GPU. Will require 2x 8pin connectors. Or any GPU. That's your current bottleneck. Your CPU can deliver 60+ FPS in any game. You can also transfer the GPU over to any new build.

 

[sherhi]

Get a RTX 3080 if you can find the connectors for the PSU to GPU. Will require 2x 8pin connectors. Or any GPU. That's your current bottleneck. Your CPU can deliver 60+ FPS in any game. You can also transfer the GPU over to any new build.

My PSU originally came with these cables: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/zalman-zm1000-ebt/2.html

but ofc I have only one 6+2 pin for my current GPU and others were probably lost over the years (moving few times), I think 6700XT and up require extra cables so I guess cards below that are my limit or can I use some other cables? (guess not)

 

[Darkbreeze]

You can probably order cables specifically for that unit. Likely they will have to either be aftermarket sleeved cables specifically for that power supply model OR will need to be ordered directly from Zalman. Do not use cables from any other unit nor from any source you are not 100% certain are specifically for that unit. Or you might be able to find a used set of cables for that model on Ebay but have to be careful that they are actually correct.

Otherwise, you are limited to graphics card models that require only a single 6 or 8 pin, or getting a different power supply.

 

[alexbirdie]

I would get a 3060. Needs about 200 W, comparable to 1080ti. depends on your PSU, but if you do have at least a 500W-PSU, it should be good.

 

[PsychoPsyops]

I couldn't find it to link here, but do a search and find a reliable bottleneck calculator online. It is very good at finding the perfect gpu for your cpu and vice versa. Always get more than one opinion on this, though.

 

[Karadjgne]

I couldn't find it to link here, but do a search and find a reliable bottleneck calculator online. It is very good at finding the perfect gpu for your cpu and vice versa. Always get more than one opinion on this, though.

Ehhh, I'd not. A psu calculator from Corsair or Seasonic, ok, that's relevant and the source is a known identity. But bottleneck calculators for cpu/gpu are a farce. They don't ask the Right questions. Use case, needs, requirements, resolution, gaming style, production or content creation, there's multiple factors that need to be addressed and aren't.

Couple years back Microsoft had its own bottleneck calculator built into Windows. With a 7.9 out of 8, it told me that my 3770k and gtx970 was a great gaming setup, highest ranked cpu and 2nd highest gpu, it was basically unbeatable combo, but still showed a 7% bottleneck in favor of the cpu. Checked it again the day after the 4770k was released, it was now a 5.9 out of 8, and was advised to upgrade to 4th gen (specifically the i5-4570) because my cpu was too slow and would create issues.

Serious load of garbage from Microsoft. An i5-4570 couldn't beat a i7-3770k in any scenario and I love how overnight my cpu suddenly went from Primo to garbage too slow, running the exact same software.

Bottleneck calculators are utter garbage, always have been, always will. The only thing they are good for is suckering in the uninformed to buy whatever the sponsor is selling.

 

[USAFRet]

and find a reliable bottleneck calculator online.

hahahaha...

That does not, and cannot, exist.

 

[Darkbreeze]

That might be some of the purest bulls.............eh, nevermind. You already know it is anyhow.

"Bottleneck calculator" Pfffft.