are you trying to trick us with backyard science, photos and tables? (“pay no attention to that man behind the curtain”)
i’m not saying you know nothing – just you should stick to the facts and only comment on matters you are actually knowledgeable about
jaquith :
Go by the Building Chart and Enjoy
to everyone: PLEASE DO NOT GO BY THE BUILDING CHART – and don’t believe what i say either – do a bit of research and find the best fit for your needs
jaquith i suggest you re-read the thread title – the vast majority of people googling ‘Z68’ right now are going to be mislead by your table
jaquith :
Forums are meant to be helpful
something we agree on – but they need to be factual to be helpful
jaquith :
I've had other Experts look at it and scrutinize it many times…
so you’re a self proclaimed ‘Expert’?
i found a previous post of yours from a couple of months ago with the same table – it attracted one reply – hardly scrutinisation and definitely no resounding endorsements for your recommendations
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/285590-30-tomshardware
what benchmarks? do you have benchmarks for the Z68 and the X68?! please link to them
jaquith :
Most people that are going to 3/4-WAY are running 5900± x 1080; running high-end GPUs 3/4-WAY for gaming on a std HD 1920 x 1080 is a waste. The H67's onboard have limited resolutions depending on the video port chosen, and the H67 shares both bandwidth and physical RAM.
If I said I wanted 3-WAY GTX 580 {$1,500} on a P55 then would it be smart to use 16 lanes or 32 lanes like the X58. The NF200 can have all sorts of PCIe lanes, but only 16 of them end up to the CPU.
The current Sandy Bridge uses more less the same architecture as the P55 with the PCIe now being processed on the CPU. The P67 is a consumer line and the soon to b released X68 and X79 are the extreme lines with a considerably more powerful Sandy Bridge 6/8-core & 6/8-HT or 6/6 or 8/8. Yep, with the recession Intel recently add a 4/4 to the LGA 2011 line.
there’s no clear or concise argument here
this isn’t a thread about the best sli/cfx setup – your table shows ‘Max SLI/CF’ for the Z68 as ‘NA’ – that’s incorrect and could mislead or confuse people – i would fully endorse you saying ‘Not Recommended (NR)’ if that was your opinion but facts are facts
jaquith :
The current Sandy Bridge uses more less the same architecture as the P55 with the PCIe now being processed on the CPU. The P67 is a consumer line and the soon to b released X68 and X79 are the extreme lines with a considerably more powerful Sandy Bridge 6/8-core & 6/8-HT or 6/6 or 8/8. Yep, with the recession Intel recently add a 4/4 to the LGA 2011 line.
how does this information relate to my claim that your table is incorrect regarding the Z68? firstly i have concerns that your table is not factual – secondly you keep comparing the Z68 ‘consumer’ with the X68 ‘extreme’ – can we keep to Z68 vs P67 vs H67
lolwat! are you sure?
jaquith :
RE: Z68 essentially is the 'same' as the H67 with then P67's CPU OC and improved Turbo Boost; in other words it's like a P67 with onboard GPU.
i prefer to look at the Z68 as a P67 + QuickSync (and ssd caching) – who’s glass is half full?
by the way Turbo Boost is controlled by the PCU which is on the same die as the cpu – it has nothing to do with the pch/chipset or motherboard
jaquith :
Both the H67/Z68 are typically underpowered platforms with limited Phase design, and are NOT geared to 12+2 or higher Phases; ideal for long term high OC. ...
lolwat! you really don’t “’Get it’”
the number of phases has nothing to do with the pch/chipset – it’s up to the motherboard designers / marketeers to decide the number of phases
how do you know how many phases will be included on motherboards that haven’t been released yet (Z68)? what makes you think people designing Z68 boards would use a similar vrm design to a H67? why wouldn’t they use a similar vrm design to a P67? – you have NO WAY of knowing any of these things
now for a lesson on phases – you’ll be surprised at how little you really do know
well designed multiple phase vrm’s produce voltages that are fast reacting, clean and stable – this is a good thing
with multi-phase vrm’s the power is distributed across more ‘power transistors’
let’s look at a non-real world example and make the numbers simple for clarity
V = 10V; I = 1A; P = V x I = 10W
1 phase – the power transistors must rated to handle 10W
10 phases – the power transistors in each phase must be rated to handle 1W
some over-engineering headroom is built in and then a transistor package is chosen which is the closest fit (and cost) to our requirements
1 phase – we choose 20W transistors – headroom = 10W
10 phases – we choose 1.5W transistors – total headroom = 5W
which one should produce more stable voltages? the 10 phase vrm
which one is more likely to pop a transistor especially when you oc / over-volt? again it’s the 10 phase vrm
it’s the design of the vrm that counts not the number of phases
people who oc / over volt must actually understand what they are doing and use their motherboard within its specified limits
this link might help you understand a little but more
http://www.improbableinsights.com/2009/08/28/do-i-need-32-phase-power-on-my-motherboard/
jaquith :
Further, their design is with onboard video and in doing so are also not geared for gaming
Z68 + Virtu means the igpu isn’t used for gaming – a new version of Virtu can use the discrete gpu as default and only the igpu when ‘QuickSync enabled’ software is running – didn’t you know discrete gpu’s are very good for gaming?
jaquith :
As a Desktop they can be used for OC CPU computation, but few will choose an OC CPU for their work
are you implying the only reason to overclock is for gaming? (and benchmarks?)
jaquith :
Why do people add non-K to the P67?
i don’t know – you tell me, ‘Expert’
jaquith :
Gaming 2600K vs 2500K - since games are typically blind to HT {Hyper-Threading} there's little point for the 2600K; clock per clock they yield the same results in FPS.
you seem to be confused – you are replying to a quote from me – i was trying to point out that with a Z68 motherboard a K (2500K or 2600K) would be a better choice than a your recommendation of a non-K (2500 or 2600) – this is because i believe a modest 24/7 overclock would be beneficial and the price difference isn’t prohibitive – it’s also a waste putting a non-K on a Z68 and you’d be better with a H67 (unless the SSD cache is a deal clincher for you) – you however have missed the point and shot off at a tangent about HT which is totally irrelevant
jaquith :
Since the 'igpu' is integrated in the CPU on the Z68 it's along for the ride.
so we agree the igpu can be overclocked – why isn’t that in your table?
jaquith :
Further, that row is meant for the CPU OC & Turbo Boost description.
lol – your table is ‘meant’ to be clear and factual
jaquith :
RE: 'Note4' and I glanced at the links and I'm totally confused what you're asking me to clarify.
the information is a little bit technical in nature so i’m not surprised you are confused – the link shows an unreleased Z68 motherboard with “three PCI Express x16 slots, dual PCI-E x1 slots as well as a pair of regular PCI slots. Of the three PCI Express x16 slots available, only the first one works in x16 mode, the second running in x8 mode while the third has only four PCI-E lanes routed to it.” – essentially it is evidence your table is wrong
jaquith :
However, you slice the PCIe the P67/H67/Z68 are all limited by the SB CPU's 16 lanes; meaning you can have 2 X NF200's with 32-lanes BUT those 32-lanes are >=funneled== to the CPU's 16-lanes. Whereas the X68/Z79 SB CPU's are 32-lanes native.
it might be limited but it is there so why doesn’t your table show that?
if the P67/H67/Z68 all have the same limitations why are the table entries different?
jaquith :
LucidLogix Virtu is a power savings scheme, and in leagues with EPU-4 which saves power but too often also induces greater problems. One post with EPU-4 enabled almost ruined a CF by under powering them and setting off BIOS alarms as a component failure. The LucidLogix Virtu simply switches use between IGPU and discrete GPU - YEAH that's what I want & need during gaming. I'm an Enthusiast. The only valid argument is for Quick Sync.
power saving might be where Virtu originated but since Intel couldn’t provide gpu switching in hardware they invested in LucidLogix and Virtu found a niche and evolved – currently Virtu can use the discrete gpu as default so YOU would probably have to be stupid enough run ‘QuickSync enabled’ software whilst running a game to encounter any problems
jaquith :
There will be some non-standard built MOBOs, there always are, but you're still left with Shared Bandwidth and Shared Physical RAM; there's no way to turn these off other than limit shared memory. The CF only requires two x8/x8, some --> bad idea are x8/x4, and nVidia only requires a 'BIOS Key' with the same PCIe availability though nVidia smartly requires x8. Even with the LGA 1156/AM3 that did 'this' it never was a good idea. Again, if you want a CF/SLI LGA 1155 then do yourself a favor and get a P67!
still no clear or concise argument – how does this make the P67 pch any better than the Z68 pch? if they are the same why does your table show them as being different?
hero…
jaquith :
Good source -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUgBNWtCsnk
…to zero…
jaquith :
I know Linus and Truby and we all share expensive X58 gaming rigs, and not H67/P67/etc. The "best of both worlds" comment is directly aimed at the H67 vs Z68. Unlike Linus who won't say anything negative about any platform -- I'm not getting PAID to sell you on anything -- otherwise where's my checks {$}?!? If I'm getting paid then I'll figure-out some crap to tell you to get any platform.
so Linus is only a ‘good source’ when he agrees with you? – are you implying his ‘expert’ opinion is sullied buy the lure of hard cash? are you saying he’s an advocate not an expert? are you saying Linus is not impartial!?? omg! (tongue in cheek)
and no, i would not pay you for your opinion
jaquith :
As I Clearly said, it depends upon the video out connection that you use and the resolutions it provides.
jaquith :
You need to look carefully at the resolutions.
is this the clear statement you are refering to? hardly ‘clear’ now is it?
jaquith :
Multi-VGA Output Support: HDMI, DVI-D and D-SUB Ports
HDMI with Max. Resolution : 1920 X 1200 @60Hz
DVI with Max. Resolution : 1920 X 1200 @60Hz
D-SUB with Max. Resolution : 2048 X 1536 @75Hz
Gaming using the IGPU would be a painful and frustrating experience with standard HD 1920x1080 monitor even with details completely turned-off - 0xAA & 0xAF which is a miserable experience all by itself, you want a minimum FPS >25~30+ which the IGPU won't provide on most popular current games. Choppy + Blurry.
as i stated (maybe not clearly enough for you) –
igpu + discrete gpu + Virtu (with the discrete gpu as default) = you don’t use the igpu for gaming and you are not limited by the video connectors on the motherboard
you seem to be having difficulty grasping this concept – try searching Tom’s Hardware for ‘virtu’ and you’ll find some good reviews
jaquith :
I think you're giving the Z68 a completely wrong impression, and trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and looking though rose glasses.
i think you need to do a little more research on the subject and stop parading yourself as an ‘Expert’ on subjects you clearly have little knowledge of
jaquith :
Let me say it again, if your 'Goal' is to play Games then today, don't wait, get a P67 - period. If you're an Extreme Gamer looking for 3/4-WAY SLI/CF e.g. GTX 570/580+ then WAIT a few months for the X68. Extreme Gamers with high budgets - 'Get it' - and won't be throwing $1500~$2000+ of GPUs on any consumer architecture. There are extremes in any chipset or design, and in those cases you should weigh out all of the options and logically choose the smarter option; e.g. extreme Z68 vs typical P67 - if the goal is Gaming then choose the 'typical P67'. Extreme gaming is an expensive tier to obtain.
If you want to put $1000 of GTX 580's on a Z68 then go for it, and watch those same on a P67 run circles around you.
I don't care what people do with their money, I just care about what makes the most sense and yields the best possible benefit for myself or those that understand.
blah blah blah – read the thread title – it’s not an ‘extreme gamers’ thread
yes i do “Get it” and i am NOT suggesting the Z68 will be an extreme gaming platform – i’m referring to your comparision of the Z68 to the P67 – do you ‘Get it’?
you still haven’t addressed the issue that your table is incorrect
please tell me why a P67 is better than a Z68 in these regards
jaquith :
^
The Maximus IV uses a doubled up high/low pair; essentially it's 16 + 3. MSI uses 'SFC' which are ~30%+ more efficient, so an 8~10+ SFC works fine.
You can OC a 4+1 to 5GHz -- the question is how long before the Phases burn out. Example {Typical Phases}: 4 -> 80% load; 8 -> 40% load ; 12 -> 27% load, etc.
again – the number of phases is relevant to oc because it provides ‘cleaner’ power rails – it is not directly relevant to whether a phase will ‘burn out’
jaquith :
Simpler, the MOBOs with lower phases aren't meant to be run at extremes with extreme loads and with extreme heat longterm.
depends on the power rating of the components not the number of phases
jaquith :
As I said, you most certainly can run a 4+1 @ 5GHz don't be shocked after a year or so when you press the power button -- and nothing.
where did the 5GHz figure come from? most 24/7 oc’ers don’t expect that frequency
jaquith :
So @ 5GHz WITH 4+1 vs vs 8+2 vs 12+2 vs 24 {UD7} AND 5 years => you tell me which will be running and what MOBO's will be in the trash heap.
it depends on power handling capabilities of the components used and if the user has the intelligence to use the board within its specified limits
oh – and are you suggesting that an extreme gamer / extreme oc’er will be using the same motherboard in 5 years time? i very much doubt that
jaquith :
This is what happens when you push too hard, and a MOBO with limited Phases goes poof:
correction – this is what happens when someone uses a motherboard outside of it’s specified limits regardless of the number of vrm phases
sorry to everyone about the length of this post but i felt the information needed to be represented more clearly and factually
everyone out there please keep in mind when you are reading forum posts that not all ‘Experts’ are actually experts