Question Is this a dangerous AC LL value for my i5-13400F ?

[Marcos Baras]

I own an i5-13400F with C0 die running on an Asus TUF B760. I think I'm pressumably out of danger of the Raptor Lake degradation issue (basically because my CPU is a rebranded Alder Lake silicon after all), but I have checked my AC Load Line value in HWiNFO64 after reading some post titled "13/14th gen Intel baseline can still degrade CPU, even with new microcode, due to AC LL" ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comm...seline_can_still_degrade_cpu/?sort=confidence

...and it turns out it's 1.700 mOhm, way higher than the recommended value, and now I'm pretty scared because I don't know how to change the BIOS settings. The valid range is between 0.01 and 62.49, but I don't know what value should I type in order to get around 0.900 mOhm. I tried exporting BIOS contents to a text file with SCEWIN, but I can't see any value, only "Auto". I'm running the latest stable BIOS for my motherboard. The one with the 0x12B update is in beta stage. I'm using Intel Baseline Profile, I have set ICCMax on 140 (intel's recommended value) and my CPU Load-Line Calibration is 1, the lowest possible.

 

[uWebb429]

I don't know what value should I type in order to get around 0.900 mOhm

If you want 0.900 mOhm, why not type that number into the BIOS? Boot up into Windows and see what value HWiNFO reports. You should always use HWiNFO to double check that the CPU is using the loadline values that you have requested. I would never trust using the default value for this very important setting. Too many motherboards are not setting AC/DC loadline to the proper or requested value.

Run Cinebench so you have a performance baseline to compare to. Some Intel CPUs can trigger Undervolt Protection or IA-CEP ( current excursion protection) when adjusting the loadline values. This can drop performance in half.

 

[Marcos Baras]

I didn't type it directly because I can't see what's the point of this range of values (0.01 to 62.49), when the upper extreme appears to be absurdly high, according to the post. What if this model of motherboard uses a weird scale for whatever reason and I set a too low figure and the system no longer boots?

 

[uWebb429]

0.01 to 62.49

My Asus motherboard has the exact same range. This has to do with how many bits of data can be stored in this register. There is no need to use the full range.

I have been using these loadline values for over a year.

IA is for the cores and GT is for the Intel GPU. No idea why this motherboard sets the Intel GPU to such high values. I cannot remember if I ever tried to reduce this. Not sure what the default loadline values are supposed to be for an Intel GPU.

No need to worry so much. You already know that your 13400F has more in common with the older 12th Gen Alder Lake than the newer and prone to failure 13th Gen CPUs.

 

[Marcos Baras]

Ok, thanks a lot!! I guess that I'm over-thinking this damned Raptor Lake degradation stuff. I will update my BIOS when the final release gets out and I will let it as it is. Who knows, perhaps Intel ends up silently tweaking AC/DC Loadlines, like it did with Load-Line Calibration before (it changed automatically but it was not documented in the BIOS changelog)...

 

[YSCCC]

Ok, thanks a lot!! I guess that I'm over-thinking this damned Raptor Lake degradation stuff. I will update my BIOS when the final release gets out and I will let it as it is. Who knows, perhaps Intel ends up silently tweaking AC/DC Loadlines, like it did with Load-Line Calibration before (it changed automatically but it was not documented in the BIOS changelog)...

I am using Gigabyte board and didn't use Asus for quite some time, but I would say after updating to the latest bios it would be nice to change the ACLL settings to something like normal/default kind of value rather than "Auto", auto nowadays gets really stupid settings IMO

 

[Karadjgne]

Time-line is the single most important variable in cpu degrading (imho). My daughter has my old i7-3770K that's sitting at 4.6GHz like a champ, but can easily hit 4.9GHz and less than 1.4v. It prolly helps it's a Golden batch, it can do 5.1GHz but at rediculous vcore.

Now ask how long I expected to keep and use that i7. It's been under a 1.1GHz for years, I dropped it to 4.6GHz after a cooler change. How long do you expect to run that 13400F? Mebe 5 years before dumping it and upgrading? How much degradation is going to happen, realistically, that you'd even notice before your cpu becomes e-waste?

So just how much does it really matter, overall?

 

[Marcos Baras]

I am using Gigabyte board and didn't use Asus for quite some time, but I would say after updating to the latest bios it would be nice to change the ACLL settings to something like normal/default kind of value rather than "Auto", auto nowadays gets really stupid settings IMO

I think it's not so easy as you say. Ok, let's assume I set ACLL to your normal/default value as you say. What would it be in my case and why this figure and not something higher or something lower? That's why I'm reluctant to change it, because I'm yet to see an explanation of why this value is better than the Auto one.
And then, there's the DCLL and the Load-Line Calibration. Reading the guide, I understand ACLL must (ideally?/always?) match DCLL, but using which LLC? In theory, "Sync ACDC Loadline with VRM Loadline" setting should do the trick?
And finally, I have no idea of what should I look for in order to be sure I'm using the correct settings, as I haven't had any stability nor performance (no throttling or lower than expected clock speeds) issues so far...
BTW, the Reddit guide link was incorrect, sorry:

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1eebdid/1314th_gen_intel_baseline_can_still_degrade_cpu/

 

[YSCCC]

I think it's not so easy as you say. Ok, let's assume I set ACLL to your normal/default value as you say. What would it be in my case and why this figure and not something higher or something lower? That's why I'm reluctant to change it, because I'm yet to see an explanation of why this value is better than the Auto one.
And then, there's the DCLL and the Load-Line Calibration. Reading the guide, I understand ACLL must (ideally?/always?) match DCLL, but using which LLC? In theory, "Sync ACDC Loadline with VRM Loadline" setting should do the trick?
And finally, I have no idea of what should I look for in order to be sure I'm using the correct settings, as I haven't had any stability nor performance (no throttling or lower than expected clock speeds) issues so far...
BTW, the Reddit guide link was incorrect, sorry:

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1eebdid/1314th_gen_intel_baseline_can_still_degrade_cpu/

I am not sure about asus detail settings, but nowadays generally speaking auto= runaway values the board vendor is feeling right to boost the CPU higher, and something like normal or default (normal In gigabyte) is the real default spec value for the CPU. And manual inputting is what you tinker for tweaking.

Usually it really need to try from lower LLC value to let it have some more vdroop and not pushing ton of voltage in for no reason, and if you want, do some under volt and test for stability like multiple run of Cinebench R15,23 and 2024

 

[Marcos Baras]

Ok, sorry, I misunderstood you! I thought "Normal/default" was not a literal setting! Unfortunately, I can only choose between Auto and Manual.

Currently my LLC is set on Auto and it gets me the lowest possible value (Level 1, being the higher Level 7) and "Sync ACDC Loadline with VRM Loadline" is disabled by default.

 

[Marcos Baras]

Time-line is the single most important variable in cpu degrading (imho). My daughter has my old i7-3770K that's sitting at 4.6GHz like a champ, but can easily hit 4.9GHz and less than 1.4v. It prolly helps it's a Golden batch, it can do 5.1GHz but at rediculous vcore.

Now ask how long I expected to keep and use that i7. It's been under a 1.1GHz for years, I dropped it to 4.6GHz after a cooler change. How long do you expect to run that 13400F? Mebe 5 years before dumping it and upgrading? How much degradation is going to happen, realistically, that you'd even notice before your cpu becomes e-waste?

So just how much does it really matter, overall?

Well, I've been running a first gen i5 for 10 years, but I just want that my current CPU lasts as long as I need it without worrying about transient voltage spikes or whatever, that's all. I'm quite happy with its current performance and power consumption and it's very silent.
So, to sum up, must I assume from your answer that I will shorten my CPU's lifespan if I let it as it is?

 

[YSCCC]

Ok, sorry, I misunderstood you! I thought "Normal/default" was not a literal setting! Unfortunately, I can only choose between Auto and Manual.

Currently my LLC is set on Auto and it gets me the lowest possible value (Level 1, being the higher Level 7) and "Sync ACDC Loadline with VRM Loadline" is disabled by default.

Normally I would suggest trying the lower LLC, like with the most voltage drop myself, and test with that to see if it triggers CEP or other protection of the CPU or it becomes unstable, lower voltage usually gets you much cooler and less power consumption, which is always a nice thing

 

[Karadjgne]

Nobody has yet reliably determined the physical lifespan of a cpu. There are 45yr old cpus that are still fully functional and working.
Just as there are cpus that simply gave up the third time they saw power.

Cpus lifespan is essentially determined by 2 things, that being your personal opinion and software. As long as it doesn't die by then, anything after is moot.

So I'd not put much into thinking about lifespan and cpu detriments, the cpu will more likely be outmoded before there's any noticeable behavior due to burnout and not software.

 

[Marcos Baras]

Nobody has yet reliably determined the physical lifespan of a cpu. There are 45yr old cpus that are still fully functional and working.
Just as there are cpus that simply gave up the third time they saw power.

Cpus lifespan is essentially determined by 2 things, that being your personal opinion and software. As long as it doesn't die by then, anything after is moot.

So I'd not put much into thinking about lifespan and cpu detriments, the cpu will more likely be outmoded before there's any noticeable behavior due to burnout and not software.

We are not talking about the same topic, but thanks anyway for your time.

 

[Karadjgne]

We kinda are. The 'experts' have said that voltages etc should be within specific ranges to be considered 'safe' from degradation, decay, electrical bleed etc.

But that's only an educated guess, in order to maintain the opportunity to retain the full possible lifespan. Even with your starting numbers, if your cpu lifespan is cut in half, that's still 25 years ±, your usable lifespan is still well protected.

What is so important that you absolutely must have 0.900 mOhms? ' What if my board... ',

You'll find that with many 'auto' type values, they aren't standalone, but part of a larger computation, so YSCCC was most likely on the right approach by dropping main voltages, which often has a side affect of affecting all other associations like resistances and amperage required