Question Is this a tough choice - - - Blu-rays or external HDDs ?

[Perene]

Let's say someone wanted to give to you 4 TB for your most important backups. For free. But you only had 2 choices: either a) an external HDD, or b) 150 (more or less) Blu-ray discs, which I assume will have 25 GB each. What would you choose? Don't mind the fact that it's a hassle to handle so many discs; the choice here only matters in terms of preserving the contents, for many years, perhaps your lifetime.

As far as I researched, there is no such thing as a "reliable" HDD, even in the best brands you can easily find reviews saying the drive either was DOA or died a few weeks later. And when that happens, it's costly or impossible to recover everything lost. I mean, from the looks of it, we probably have more chances winning the lottery than any of our internal (and perhaps worse) external drives not dying without further notice. Which is a tragedy, because online backups are anything but cheap and having enough space for datahoarders like myself.

On the other hand, I am curious about these discs, because even if a few fail, it's not all of them at the same time, I guess. So if we analyze this purely objectively, if we are storing 4 TB of data only to make sure this isn't lost, not to access it all the time (because we may have all of this in our SSD/internal drive anyway, it's only when needed that we may get the disc/drive again and copy the contents), what makes more sense?

 

[USAFRet]

DOA or died a few weeks later. And when that happens, it's costly or impossible to recover everything lost.

Since this is a "backup", it is not the only copy.

A dead drive or optical disk should never be more than "I need a new drive".
You data should never be at the mercy of a single device, no matter what type.

 

[BFG-9000]

Tape is more reliable than HDD. Writable Blu-Ray BD-R has always had such an alarmingly high error rate compared to DVD±R or CD-R that I never seriously considered it for backup data storage. For movies and such where minor errors don't matter and usually aren't visible, sure it's great.

 

[hotaru.hino]

A lot of recordable optical discs use organic ink, which degrades over time. If you're lucky even in ideal, yet practical storage conditions, you can only expect to get about 3-5 years of reliability. There are so-called archival grade discs, but I can't vouch for them and some of them you may need a special writer to record data on it.

The thing with hard drives being unreliable is it's something everyone uses and people are more likely to report dead items than not. I've had offline back-up drives last for years. I've also had a pair of drives I used in my NAS that was on more or less 24/7 for 5 years (they recorded about a 4.5 year power-on time) and only one of them started giving me an intermittent SMART error.

But what's your end goal? If it it's to have storage that you don't want to touch for 10+ years after you've stored stuff into it, you're going to need to go for archival grade stuff. Which at this point would be tape drives, or if you want to believe the marketing blurb, archival grade discs.

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

I have almost 6 TB of home media... digital movies... photos... etc... etc... on an 8TB SATA SSD... backed up to another 8 TB SATA SSD... which is backed up to a 12 TB HDD.

 

[kanewolf]

Let's say someone wanted to give to you 4 TB for your most important backups. For free. But you only had 2 choices: either a) an external HDD, or b) 150 (more or less) Blu-ray discs, which I assume will have 25 GB each. What would you choose? Don't mind the fact that it's a hassle to handle so many discs; the choice here only matters in terms of preserving the contents, for many years, perhaps your lifetime.

As far as I researched, there is no such thing as a "reliable" HDD, even in the best brands you can easily find reviews saying the drive either was DOA or died a few weeks later. And when that happens, it's costly or impossible to recover everything lost. I mean, from the looks of it, we probably have more chances winning the lottery than any of our internal (and perhaps worse) external drives not dying without further notice. Which is a tragedy, because online backups are anything but cheap and having enough space for datahoarders like myself.

On the other hand, I am curious about these discs, because even if a few fail, it's not all of them at the same time, I guess. So if we analyze this purely objectively, if we are storing 4 TB of data only to make sure this isn't lost, not to access it all the time (because we may have all of this in our SSD/internal drive anyway, it's only when needed that we may get the disc/drive again and copy the contents), what makes more sense?

Remember that neither of these protect against fire, flood, theft, etc. An off site backup is also required to protect against those data loss threats.

 

[Perene]

A lot of recordable optical discs use organic ink, which degrades over time. If you're lucky even in ideal, yet practical storage conditions, you can only expect to get about 3-5 years of reliability. There are so-called archival grade discs, but I can't vouch for them and some of them you may need a special writer to record data on it.

The thing with hard drives being unreliable is it's something everyone uses and people are more likely to report dead items than not. I've had offline back-up drives last for years. I've also had a pair of drives I used in my NAS that was on more or less 24/7 for 5 years (they recorded about a 4.5 year power-on time) and only one of them started giving me an intermittent SMART error.

But what's your end goal? If it it's to have storage that you don't want to touch for 10+ years after you've stored stuff into it, you're going to need to go for archival grade stuff. Which at this point would be tape drives, or if you want to believe the marketing blurb, archival grade discs.

I had 2 SSDs so far and they didn't die on me, but I had problems with Hard Drives failing, internal or external, to this date. Their reliability improved over time, but some brands are just plagued with issues, like Seagate (I wouldn't accept stuff from them even for free, they used to be great before buying minor trash companies, I remember this happening 15 or more years ago).

External is even worse, any small bump and there you go, losing your data.

The problem is not such HDD dying after 5, 10 years (I am being optimistic...), it's failing suddenly when you least expect. This is what can't happen, if you can't have a 2nd way of backing up that data. Sometimes you are warned of future failures, many times not.

In an ideal scenario you could just upload your stuff to any online service and rely on their servers which are probably a lot safer than you using RAID or whatever setup in your room. But things get a little complicated ($$$$$$$$$$$) if we are talking about TERABYTES of data.

I also had problems with a few discs failing and corrupting data, what I hinted was that, if they aren't likely to die so soon and rot so easily, the fact you recorded on so many could mean the odds of losing all of it (HDD) against some of it (BD-R) are appealing.

I never had much experience with recordings Blu-rays, only DVDs.

 

[fzabkar]

Technologies become obsolete relatively quickly, so you will eventually need to migrate your backups to newer storage media. Will you still be able to buy an optical drive in 10 years' time?

I would choose a hard drive because it can be duplicated fairly quickly and painlessly. The downside is that you would need to make several backups to protect against data loss.

 

[kanewolf]

In an ideal scenario you could just upload your stuff to any online service and rely on their servers which are probably a lot safer than you using RAID or whatever setup in your room. But things get a little complicated ($$$$$$$$$$$) if we are talking about TERABYTES of data.

For most people the CRITICAL data is not TB. It is a couple hundred MB or less. Are commercial movies that important? IMO, no. Home movies, some YES, others maybe not.
It is easy and convenient to backup everything. But is absolute protection NECESSARY? Unless the data is irreplaceable then it could be lost with annoyance, but not true loss.

 

[hotaru.hino]

I had 2 SSDs so far and they didn't die on me, but I had problems with Hard Drives failing, internal or external, to this date. Their reliability improved over time, but some brands are just plagued with issues, like Seagate (I wouldn't accept stuff from them even for free, they used to be great before buying minor trash companies, I remember this happening 15 or more years ago).

I've heard every company sucks, so to me it's just pick your poison. But I haven't had issues with drives from either manufacturer. Hell, I had a Maxtor drive last a good 3 years before I parted with the computer it was in. And as far as I could tell, it was still good.

External is even worse, any small bump and there you go, losing your data.

In the 15+ years I've had external drives, I haven't had this happen at all. Maybe unless you violently shake the drive while it's actually doing something maybe, but small bumps? No.

The problem is not such HDD dying after 5, 10 years (I am being optimistic...), it's failing suddenly when you least expect. This is what can't happen, if you can't have a 2nd way of backing up that data. Sometimes you are warned of future failures, many times not.

Almost anything can fail when you least expect it. That's why you have multiple copies on physically different things.

In an ideal scenario you could just upload your stuff to any online service and rely on their servers which are probably a lot safer than you using RAID or whatever setup in your room. But things get a little complicated ($$$$$$$$$$$) if we are talking about TERABYTES of data.

Do you really have terabytes of data you absolutely cannot live without?

I also had problems with a few discs failing and corrupting data, what I hinted was that, if they aren't likely to die so soon and rot so easily, the fact you recorded on so many could mean the odds of losing all of it (HDD) against some of it are appealing.

Which is why any reasonably sufficient backup strategy never puts all the eggs in one basket.

Again, the ideal solution here is at least following the 3-2-1 rule: at least 3 copies, at least 2 different storage devices, at least 1 copy off site. It doesn't matter how you implement your strategy, as long as you do this strategy.

 

[MWink64]

Technologies become obsolete relatively quickly, so you will eventually need to migrate your backups to newer storage media. Will you still be able to buy an optical drive in 10 years' time?

I would choose a hard drive because it can be duplicated fairly quickly and painlessly. The downside is that you would need to make several backups to protect against data loss.

I agree. Blu-Ray discs may hold up for decades but the drives may not. I've already had one Blu-Ray burner die (won't recognize any Blu-Ray discs). In my experience, optical drives have never been especially reliable. Couple that with the fact that PC Blu-Ray drives are extremely rare and they're likely to be hard to find and expensive in the future. Remember, Blu-Ray drives were never as ubiquitous as CD or DVD drives. To date, I have only encountered on PC (besides my own) that had a Blu-Ray drive and that belonged to someone who was given a blank check to get a new laptop for work. Additionally, the price per GB is massively higher than HDs (somewhere around 3x, last I checked).

Hard drives are simpler and cheaper. I'd go with multiple hard drives, preferably of different models/brands. Every 5-10 years, transfer it to newer drives or whatever the current media is.

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

I agree. Blu-Ray discs may hold up for decades but the drives may not. I've already had one Blu-Ray burner die (won't recognize any Blu-Ray discs). In my experience, optical drives have never been especially reliable. Couple that with the fact that PC Blu-Ray drives are extremely rare and they're likely to be hard to find and expensive in the future.

Extremely rare is so true... this is the one I have...

LG BE16NU50

I got it like 8 years ago strictly for ripping blu rays that I purchased that didn't come with a digital copy... so I make my own with MakeMKV and Handbrake.

It works amazingly good... both 1080p and UHD discs. Someone once told me "don't update the firmware on it because it will render UHD discs unreadable" or something... so I never have. Still running the 1.0 firmware from release... and if it ain't broke.. I ain't fixin' it.

A google search doesn't yield any in stock results anywhere though.

Been a solid dependable drive for what I need it to do.

 

[Perene]

I agree. Blu-Ray discs may hold up for decades but the drives may not. I've already had one Blu-Ray burner die (won't recognize any Blu-Ray discs). In my experience, optical drives have never been especially reliable. Couple that with the fact that PC Blu-Ray drives are extremely rare and they're likely to be hard to find and expensive in the future. Remember, Blu-Ray drives were never as ubiquitous as CD or DVD drives. To date, I have only encountered on PC (besides my own) that had a Blu-Ray drive and that belonged to someone who was given a blank check to get a new laptop for work. Additionally, the price per GB is massively higher than HDs (somewhere around 3x, last I checked).

Hard drives are simpler and cheaper. I'd go with multiple hard drives, preferably of different models/brands. Every 5-10 years, transfer it to newer drives or whatever the current media is.

I don't trust "the cloud", even if you are paying for storage (and that's not cheap by any means, in my view), you are relying on someone else's computer.

If the prices of GB/$ were the same (HDD vs. Blu-ray), I don't think it would be a good idea, even if you had the money to buy more than one Hard Drive, to rely on a backup from it, that is for sure going to die within a few years or all of sudden without a warning.

6 Worst Reasons of hard disk failure and Data Recovery Solutions

Reasons of hard disk failure and subsequent solutions to perform easy hdd recovery using Stellar Data Recovery Software.

www.stellarinfo.com

There are many things that can go wrong, if you remove all the inconveniences, I think we will all agree that if the objective is to have a backup that can last and will only be needed as a last resort (when another one failed, it might be the data that is actually on your PC right now), it's not the best idea to invest in Hard Drives or SSDs.

The drives that died sooner than expected most likely were not supposed to last anyway (flawed design), and even if it was sitting in your drawer and under good conditions, I doubt a burned disc would not surpass its lifespan, and the data in it revealed to be still intact, to your surprise.

That's what I am aiming here: HOW LONG IT WILL LAST?

Otherwise, why bother? I don't like to spend on things that will need to be replaced so soon. I feel cheated.

I can't say the same about a huge HDD - when it fails, it's probably going to nuke all those 1, 2 or 4 TB, contrary to 50, 100 different burned discs that probably will have some of them corrupted, but not all, and even when that happens, it will be later than that HDD.

These drives for sure rarely fail due to old age or because you dropped them on the floor, or exposed to something harmful. It's always some shenanigan that in the end will keep you hooked to these few manufacturers. After all, where's the gain if you stop buying their stuff?

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

I don't trust "the cloud", even if you are paying for storage (and that's not cheap by any means, in my view), you are relying on someone else's computer.

That's why I buy the disc version of my movies... they usually come with a digital copy anyway and those that don't I make my own as mentioned upthread.

Not only is the quality better with discs but you aren't reliant on a digital copy stored in the cloud that can be gone with a press of a button. All my media is on the shelf.

Same goes for backups. I'd never use the cloud for that.

 

[Karadjgne]

HDD. You can backup to external HDD and let it sit for several years and it's still good. External SSD? Absolutely not, not unless you plan on reconditioning the SSD every 3months to 1 year (depends on the SSD) as the voltage that makes up the data will require being put through TRIM or it starts to fade away.

Blue Ray? Too unreliable. DVR-W is far more reliable if rarely used, or simply used once and then read to current, don't continuously update, just reburn another with any additions.

 

[BFG-9000]

BD-R was terrible even in its heyday, so shouldn't be considered as data backup for anything. I mean if all the Verbatim 25GB and 50GB discs flunked for excessively high error rate at any burn speed and with any burner then something was seriously wrong with the technology. Yes, the error correction could still read it when freshly burned, but things degrade more over time, and neither DVD nor CD was ever that bad.

Considering all of the acquisitions (CMC have now bought both Verbatim in 2019 and TaiyoYuden in 2015 so everything is CMC, Ritek or Vinpower/Moser Baer now) and the general decline in quality of optical media as tooling wears out and nobody wants to invest in replacing it since nobody buys blank discs anymore, I haven't seen anything to suggest that things may have improved at all since.

Pressed Blu-Ray is fine, and even movies on BD-R--where single-bit errors simply do not matter. But for programs and documents those can matter a lot.

 

[hotaru.hino]

I don't trust "the cloud", even if you are paying for storage (and that's not cheap by any means, in my view), you are relying on someone else's computer.

While I'm not going to try and convince you, the thing with the cloud is it offloads a ton of work that you'd have to do since they're the ones maintaining the computers and making sure all of the data is safe. They're going to implement their own backup solutions on top of what you're doing.

And there are cloud services that offer client side encryption, so they don't even know what I'm sending them, nor can they figure it out because they don't have the key.

Sure it's not cheap, but any other solution to get a copy off-site is too inconvenient for my tastes and I'd like every copy to be as up to date as possible.

 

[kanewolf]

I don't trust "the cloud", even if you are paying for storage (and that's not cheap by any means, in my view), you are relying on someone else's computer.

You should research what Amazon does to ensure data integrity of the Glacier storage. Glacier is what I use for off-site backups. Primarily photos and financial data. Encrypted PRIOR to upload, so I don't have to worry about security.

 

[USAFRet]

Regarding optical disks...

Back in the early '00s, I burned a lot of movies on DVD. Over 100.
Various manufacturers.
All stored in binders, plastic sleeves.
Never mistreated, never in the sunlight, etc, etc.

6-7 years later, about a 40-50% fail rate.

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

Regarding optical disks...

6-7 years later, about a 40-50% fail rate.

Big reason I don't use them for backup. The Blu ray drive is great for ripping and making digital copies of movies but no plans to use it for backup.

 

[Misgar]

I have Terabytes of photos I'd be unhappy to lose. I've just come back from a 3-week holiday with 518GB of data, mostly RAW + JPG plus a few MOV files. Of course when I die it won't be important, but until then I like to keep it safe. That's why I make three copies on two laptops and an external SSD each day whilst I'm away.

When I get back, I keep three copies on hard disks in three different computers. I have three more copies on three TrueNAS Core RAID-Z2 servers which are not connected to the internet. I keep another three copies on LTO (Linear Tape Open) cartridges. In the past I used BluRay.

Overkill? Possibly. But with write protected tapes stored off site, I hope I've got most things covered, apart from a large meteorite strike causing a tsunami. Mind you, I could be wrong.

 

[Deleted member 2838871]

I have Terabytes of photos I'd be unhappy to lose. I've just come back from a 3-week holiday with 518GB of data, mostly RAW + JPG plus a few MOV files. Of course when I die it won't be important, but until then I like to keep it safe. That's why I make three copies on two laptops and an external SSD each day whilst I'm away.

When I get back, I keep three copies on hard disks in three different computers. I have three more copies on three TrueNAS Core RAID-Z2 servers which are not connected to the internet. I keep another three copies on LTO (Linear Tape Open) cartridges. In the past I used BluRay.

Overkill? Possibly. But with write protected tapes stored off site, I hope I've got most things covered, apart from a large meteorite strike causing a tsunami. Mind you, I could be wrong.

Thanks for reminding me... I need to get a laptop for my upcoming 7 day Caribbean cruise and my 14 day Hawaii cruise next year for my 50th. Got the GoPro... got the drone... but can't take the desktop PC with me.

 

[Karadjgne]

I have Terabytes of photos I'd be unhappy to lose. I've just come back from a 3-week holiday with 518GB of data, mostly RAW + JPG plus a few MOV files. Of course when I die it won't be important, but until then I like to keep it safe. That's why I make three copies on two laptops and an external SSD each day whilst I'm away.

When I get back, I keep three copies on hard disks in three different computers. I have three more copies on three TrueNAS Core RAID-Z2 servers which are not connected to the internet. I keep another three copies on LTO (Linear Tape Open) cartridges. In the past I used BluRay.

Overkill? Possibly. But with write protected tapes stored off site, I hope I've got most things covered, apart from a large meteorite strike causing a tsunami. Mind you, I could be wrong.

No such thing as "Over Kill" when it comes to backups. The stuff my wife works on gets backed up every few seconds, which then sees a server backup every few hours, which then gets backed up daily, then weekly, then monthly. All of it off-site and in multiple locations and every bit of it using AES-256 encryption, and that'll get redone when AES-512/1024 becomes thunk up.

 

[MWink64]

I don't trust "the cloud", even if you are paying for storage (and that's not cheap by any means, in my view), you are relying on someone else's computer.

If the prices of GB/$ were the same (HDD vs. Blu-ray), I don't think it would be a good idea, even if you had the money to buy more than one Hard Drive, to rely on a backup from it, that is for sure going to die within a few years or all of sudden without a warning.

6 Worst Reasons of hard disk failure and Data Recovery Solutions

Reasons of hard disk failure and subsequent solutions to perform easy hdd recovery using Stellar Data Recovery Software.

www.stellarinfo.com

There are many things that can go wrong, if you remove all the inconveniences, I think we will all agree that if the objective is to have a backup that can last and will only be needed as a last resort (when another one failed, it might be the data that is actually on your PC right now), it's not the best idea to invest in Hard Drives or SSDs.

The drives that died sooner than expected most likely were not supposed to last anyway (flawed design), and even if it was sitting in your drawer and under good conditions, I doubt a burned disc would not surpass its lifespan, and the data in it revealed to be still intact, to your surprise.

That's what I am aiming here: HOW LONG IT WILL LAST?

Otherwise, why bother? I don't like to spend on things that will need to be replaced so soon. I feel cheated.

I can't say the same about a huge HDD - when it fails, it's probably going to nuke all those 1, 2 or 4 TB, contrary to 50, 100 different burned discs that probably will have some of them corrupted, but not all, and even when that happens, it will be later than that HDD.

These drives for sure rarely fail due to old age or because you dropped them on the floor, or exposed to something harmful. It's always some shenanigan that in the end will keep you hooked to these few manufacturers. After all, where's the gain if you stop buying their stuff?

I don't understand the point of this thread. You seem to already have your mind made up. I also don't know why you bring up the cloud, when I never mentioned it once. I personally am also anti-cloud.

The price per GB of hard drives vs Blu-Ray is not the same. Blu-Ray is about 3x as expensive. Three hard drives give you massively less chance of data loss, compared to one set of Blu-Rays. The likelihood of all three hard drives dying simultaneously is very low (excluding external causes).

Hard drives absolutely are not "for sure going to die within a few years or all of a sudden without a warning." Hard drives can last decades, especially when left mostly unused. They also have fairly decent data recovery prospects. In many cases, they show signs before catastrophic failure, it's literally the point of SMART. I've recovered varying amounts of data from countless hard drives. If your earlier assertion were true, I really need to start playing the lottery!

I'm not sure the point of your link. Most of the issues it brings up are not particularly applicable to the situation we're discussing. Also, I have serious issues with that article, especially since it suggests formatting a drive you want to recover data from. You should also keep in mind that it's written by a company selling data recovery software.

You say you don't like to spend money on things that will need to be replaced so soon, yet you're arguing for spending more than three times as much (for both Blu-Ray media and drive) for only one additional copy of your data. You are right that several corrupt Blu-Ray discs won't result in losing all your data (depending on how you store it). However, having three copies of your data on hard drives makes it far less likely that you'll lose any data. That doesn't even get into how inconvenient it is to burn 150+ discs (assuming single-layer). Also, as I mentioned before, you still have to worry about finding a working Blu-Ray drive. The discs lasting centuries is of little value if there's nothing to read them.

Your original post brought up the fact that it's possible to find bad reviews for any hard drive. Of course it is. You can find bad reviews for anything, including Blu-Rays. I feel like you started with a conclusion and are working backwards, trying to justify it.

Extremely rare is so true... this is the one I have...

LG BE16NU50

I got it like 8 years ago strictly for ripping blu rays that I purchased that didn't come with a digital copy... so I make my own with MakeMKV and Handbrake.

It works amazingly good... both 1080p and UHD discs. Someone once told me "don't update the firmware on it because it will render UHD discs unreadable" or something... so I never have. Still running the 1.0 firmware from release... and if it ain't broke.. I ain't fixin' it.

A google search doesn't yield any in stock results anywhere though.

Been a solid dependable drive for what I need it to do.

I've used the relatively common LG drives. The first one was great, until it suddenly dropped dead. It was literally in the middle of reading a disc when it just started making unhappy noises. I thought the disc had a bad spot but it was the drive. After that, it never recognized another Blu-Ray again. It still works fine with CDs and DVDs, so I just treat it as a DVD burner. I've never seen an optical drive die so abruptly.

 

[MWink64]

HDD. You can backup to external HDD and let it sit for several years and it's still good. External SSD? Absolutely not, not unless you plan on reconditioning the SSD every 3months to 1 year (depends on the SSD) as the voltage that makes up the data will require being put through TRIM or it starts to fade away.

Blue Ray? Too unreliable. DVR-W is far more reliable if rarely used, or simply used once and then read to current, don't continuously update, just reburn another with any additions.

SSDs are fine as part of a backup strategy but I wouldn't rely on them for long term storage.

I may be misinterpreting what you wrote but a TRIM operation will not "recondition" the data on an SSD. TRIM simply informs the SSD's controller what LBAs are unallocated and can be cleared (treated as dynamic overprovisioning). It does not directly impact data contained in allocated areas. The only way to ensure the data is refreshed is to fully rewrite it to the drive, preferably after clearing the drive with a Secure Erase or TRIM operation.

When you said "DVR-W" did you mean DVD-R or DVD-RW? In theory, a standard HTL Blu-Ray should be far more reliable than any burnable DVD media, aside from M-Disc. Whether this is true in practice, I can't say.

Regarding optical disks...

Back in the early '00s, I burned a lot of movies on DVD. Over 100.
Various manufacturers.
All stored in binders, plastic sleeves.
Never mistreated, never in the sunlight, etc, etc.

6-7 years later, about a 40-50% fail rate.

This isn't the first time I've seen such claims but I always find it at odds with my own (also anecdotal) experiences. I've been burning optical media since my Sony 2X CD burner and find most that successfully burn seem to last. The only discs I've found issues with are ReWritable media and pretty much anything branded Memorex.

Nevertheless, standard HTL Blu-Rays are a different beast than CDs and DVDs (excluding M-Disc), which use organic dyes.